Watchman, Combat, and Focus, Oh My!

[GamewizX]

I've recently taken up leveling a Sentinel, and have been doing some research just to understand the class better. From what seems to be the general consensus, Watchman definitely seems like the preferred tree solely because it seems more versatile for both PvP and PvE, while also being easier on rotation (easier for the class, but still harder compared to other classes). However, Focus is also considered to be a PvP spec because of the insane amounts of what seems to be slows, snares, etc., which in games like Huttball is critical.

 

So my question is this... what's the point of Combat then? Just casually looking at the trees, it looks like Watchman was more about the dots and self heals, while Focus was more about controlling your opponent. Combat, however, looks like it would be fantastic for sustained, high-output DPS, which is more to my liking.

 

But from what I'm reading it seems like perhaps Combat is a very underrated spec... am I wrong? Is Combat not a viable spec for PvE or PvP?

[PantsOn]

Get rid of the yellow text.

 

The point of Combat is to have fun while being gimped compared to Watchman. You have to be perfect with Combat to come close to the DPS an average Watchman player will achieve.

Edited March 13, 2012 by PantsOn

[andrew_b_gross]

As is often (always?) the case in MMOs, the difference between the trees has at least as much to do with bugs and mistakes and miscalculations on the part of the programmers/designers as it does to do with the intended purpose of the class. Usually the "best" tree is the best, not because the designers intended that it do X really well and it does X really well, but because it does something better than intended, or because the other trees do something worse than intended.

 

I am 100% confident that the designers intended for Watchman and Combat to be equally viable end-game raiding specs. I'm sure that they were meant to have significant differences in play style, but the final damage numbers in a boss fight should be the same. Unfortunately, either they over-did Watchman, or gimped Combat, because as it stands in 1.1.5, Watchman simply does more damage than Combat in PVE.

 

Of course, this will change, and change, and change again, in a never-ending balancing and rebalancing act; sometimes Watchman will be best, then they'll change an ability or introduce a new Relic or whatever and Combat will be best, then it will be Focus. But for PVE right now, it's Watchman, and that has nothing to do with DoTs vs. burst, it's just that they got their math wrong.

[TristQueloon]

My experience so far has been this:

 

Watchman:

PvP: Amazing sustained damage, good in pvp after level 20, as you get most of your main skills, good utility, self healing, and the DoT system really tears up players.

 

PvE: The self healing helps while leveling. A system of DoTs helps take down strongs/elites really effeciently and without much danger. However it takes longer to kill trash mobs and large groups as you have really no burst damage in the early levels, and only the default AoE.

 

Focus:

PvP: Can rack up serious damage in matches so long as you stick to doing your auto crit AoE on large clusters of enemies. While you do alot of damage, you dont really get alot of kills. Because after youve spent that crit AoE, the rest of your damage is kinda sub par. But you get alot of talents to help buff your defense

 

PvE: You pretty much wipe groups of trashmobs out before they even fight back. However its a tougher battle against strongs/elites as your damage falls off quickly after that.

 

Combat:

PvP: Combat is about burst. You will not do as much damage in the long run as Watchman, but your front load Burst is much higher. In PvP if you focus on taking out already damaged players, you pretty much wipe the floor with them. Against fresh full hp players though, you burst them down to about 1/3 life and then it takes you time to do alot of damage again. You also get 15% movement buff from your stance, so very mobile

 

PvE: Kinda of the middle ground. Your bursty dps takes out trash mobs pretty fast. You do alot of front load damage on strong/elites, but the end of those battles take a bit longer.

[GamewizX]

Get rid of the yellow text.

 

Nope. Been posting like this for years. Funny though that you are trying to demand me to stop.

 

 

 

TristQueloon and others, thank you very much for the feedback. That gives me much greater insight as to what to expect. Most likely I'll still stick with Combat for now as it just fits my playstyle better, and I'm sure they'll be "balanced" out in time. Who knows, maybe with 1.2 we'll see some decent shifting so that Watchman isn't considered the only good spec for a Sentinel.

[PantsOn]

Nope. Been posting like this for years. Funny though that you are trying to demand me to stop.

 

You have the right to chose to be obnoxious. More power to you, man.

Edited March 13, 2012 by PantsOn

[GamewizX]

You have the right to chose to be obnoxious. More power to you, man.

 

Right back at ya.

[Inarai]

You have the right to chose to be obnoxious. More power to you, man.

 

No, you don't tell Gamewiz to cut it with the yellow text. He's something of a community fixture.

 

As for combat... It takes more skill to get the output, but it's extremely powerful.

[GamewizX]

No, you don't tell Gamewiz to cut it with the yellow text. He's something of a community fixture.

 

As for combat... It takes more skill to get the output, but it's extremely powerful.

 

Not anymore, but it was fun pre-launch.

 

That's what I've been hearing regarding combat... much more difficult rotation. Considering my last two classes were a Telekinetic Sage and Gunnery Commando, I gladly welcome a more difficult class!

[Inarai]

Not anymore, but it was fun pre-launch.

 

That's what I've been hearing regarding combat... much more difficult rotation. Considering my last two classes were a Telekinetic Sage and Gunnery Commando, I gladly welcome a more difficult class!

 

Keep the word "rotation" far, far, far away from anything to do with Sentinels, Combat Sentinels especially; it just doesn't apply. Can't really even describe it accurately as a priority system. Proper play is very dynamic.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Inarai

[EasymodeX]

But from what I'm reading it seems like perhaps Combat is a very underrated spec... am I wrong? Is Combat not a viable spec for PvE or PvP?

 

Combat is: (a) underrated, (b) less effective than Watchman for endgame PvE, © less effective than both Watchman and Focus for PvP, (d) significantly less effective than Watchman for solo PvE.

 

The basic problems with Combat for PvP:

 

1. Heavy reliance on RNG for burst. Blade Storm is not sufficient for "burst". You also need Ataru procs, crit Blade Rushes, and crit Ataru procs. Both Focus and Watchman rely less on RNG for their respective bursts.

 

2. Burst relies on very narrow buff windows. Precision is up for 4.5 seconds. For maximum burst, you want Zen up as well.

 

3. The burst windows are resource intensive. Precision costs 3 Focus. Centering builds slow as **** in Combat.

 

4. Soft. Watchman has self-heals. Focus has 7% more damage reduction across the board, and joust capability.

 

 

The basic problems with Combat for endgame PvE:

 

1. Ataru strike range bug on large hitboxes.

 

2. Lower utility due to piss-poor Centering generation. Tree utility generally irrelevant to PvE (roots, interrupt range, etc).

[GamewizX]

Keep the word "rotation" far, far, far away from anything to do with Sentinels, Combat Sentinels especially; it just doesn't apply. Can't really even describe it accurately as a priority system. Proper play is very dynamic.

 

Which is fine. I'd rather have a dynamic play of "1, 4, e, c, 2, v, b, 5, e, f, f, g" than my Commando Gunnery rotation of "4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 2, 4, 4, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 2,"

[Inarai]

Combat is: (a) underrated, (b) less effective than Watchman for endgame PvE, © less effective than both Watchman and Focus for PvP, (d) significantly less effective than Watchman for solo PvE.

 

The basic problems with Combat for PvP:

 

1. Heavy reliance on RNG for burst. Blade Storm is not sufficient for "burst". You also need Ataru procs, crit Blade Rushes, and crit Ataru procs. Both Focus and Watchman rely less on RNG for their respective bursts.

 

2. Burst relies on very narrow buff windows. Precision is up for 4.5 seconds. For maximum burst, you want Zen up as well.

 

3. The burst windows are resource intensive. Precision costs 3 Focus. Centering builds slow as **** in Combat.

 

4. Soft. Watchman has self-heals. Focus has 7% more damage reduction across the board, and joust capability.

 

 

The basic problems with Combat for endgame PvE:

 

1. Ataru strike range bug on large hitboxes.

 

2. Lower utility due to piss-poor Centering generation. Tree utility generally irrelevant to PvE (roots, interrupt range, etc).

 

I think I see someone who doesn't get how Combat works.

[Inarai]

Which is fine. I'd rather have a dynamic play of "1, 4, e, c, 2, v, b, 5, e, f, f, g" than my Commando Gunnery rotation of "4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 2, 4, 4, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 2,"

 

That's the fun of it, yeah. Just best to frame it in the right terms from the outset, makes the class easier to learn.

[PantsOn]

I think I see someone who doesn't get how Combat works.

 

A someone who leveled from 1 to 50 in Combat, went to Valor rank 25 (before they buffed valor gain) and did end game content with the spec, I can tell that EeasymodeX is pretty much spot on.

 

Combat is incredibly fun to play, but it's also mentally exhausting if you're trying to play at peak levels.

Edited March 13, 2012 by PantsOn

[Crawelc]

Combat is incredibly fun to play, but it's also mentally exhausting if you're trying to play at peak levels.

 

This, i love my spec and will never change, but I have to give my brain a breather from time to time.

[Metaspark]

Combat is by far the most difficult Sentinel tree, but in my opinion it is very fun and more than rewarding to the player that can utilize it properly. I have no wish whatsoever to even try Watchman or Focus, because Combat works perfectly fine for me and anyone that has an issue with that can take it up with my highest damage and 3 huttball scores

[Mal-Sharran]

Combat is: (a) underrated, (b) less effective than Watchman for endgame PvE, © less effective than both Watchman and Focus for PvP, (d) significantly less effective than Watchman for solo PvE.

 

The basic problems with Combat for PvP:

 

1. Heavy reliance on RNG for burst. Blade Storm is not sufficient for "burst". You also need Ataru procs, crit Blade Rushes, and crit Ataru procs. Both Focus and Watchman rely less on RNG for their respective bursts.

 

2. Burst relies on very narrow buff windows. Precision is up for 4.5 seconds. For maximum burst, you want Zen up as well.

 

3. The burst windows are resource intensive. Precision costs 3 Focus. Centering builds slow as **** in Combat.

 

4. Soft. Watchman has self-heals. Focus has 7% more damage reduction across the board, and joust capability.

 

 

The basic problems with Combat for endgame PvE:

 

1. Ataru strike range bug on large hitboxes.

 

2. Lower utility due to piss-poor Centering generation. Tree utility generally irrelevant to PvE (roots, interrupt range, etc).

 

I agree with almost everything you say, other than what I highlighted in your quote. I leveled as Combat, I love the spec. I had ZERO trouble leveling, in fact it was so effortless as to be easy. The only time I ever needed help was that one class quest on Tat (which is overtuned and needs to be adjusted). Combat, in a perfect test environment, does just silly damage, on par with Watchman. It simply comes down to the bugs with the spec (which rear their ugly head in pvp more than pve). The self heals of Watchman aren't 'trivial' but they will not make an impossible fight possible, they simply lead to slightly less downtime between fights.

 

Between Rebuke and Saber Ward, two very early abilities, Sentinels do not have issues mitigating damage, with or without Watchman talents. Combat does excellent burst and very respectable sustained damage. This will be proved in 1.2 when combat logs become available.

[Mal-Sharran]

Combat is by far the most difficult Sentinel tree, but in my opinion it is very fun and more than rewarding to the player that can utilize it properly. I have no wish whatsoever to even try Watchman or Focus, because Combat works perfectly fine for me and anyone that has an issue with that can take it up with my highest damage and 3 huttball scores

 

I'm not calling you out, but...I am. For Combat to beat Watchman in pure damage in a WZ, something has to be very, very wrong. And I'm a Combat enthusiast (although I am currently Watchman since Combat is broken. It IS broken, please don't deny it). Like I said earlier, I LOVE Combat. There is no 'but' there, I simply love the style and want to go back. Now for the 'but'...but Watchman currently suffers from none of the mechanical flaws of Combat.

 

For PvE, minus the extra damage mitigation of Watchman, I'd say Combat is within 5-10% of Watchman for pure damage. But for PvP, lul. I'll stomp a Combat 9 times out of 10. 99 times out of 100. And I'm being generous. Am I saying you're a fluke? No, I don't know you, I can't judge. But you just can't fight facts, so if you're the highest in a WZ, you're either godlike, or your competition is fail.

[Metaspark]

I'm not calling you out, but...I am. For Combat to beat Watchman in pure damage in a WZ, something has to be very, very wrong. And I'm a Combat enthusiast (although I am currently Watchman since Combat is broken. It IS broken, please don't deny it). Like I said earlier, I LOVE Combat. There is no 'but' there, I simply love the style and want to go back. Now for the 'but'...but Watchman currently suffers from none of the mechanical flaws of Combat.

 

For PvE, minus the extra damage mitigation of Watchman, I'd say Combat is within 5-10% of Watchman for pure damage. But for PvP, lul. I'll stomp a Combat 9 times out of 10. 99 times out of 100. And I'm being generous. Am I saying you're a fluke? No, I don't know you, I can't judge. But you just can't fight facts, so if you're the highest in a WZ, you're either godlike, or your competition is fail.

 

I was actually more referring to the people of other classes nagging me for not being Watchman

 

I make no denial that Watchman can easily beat Combat in damage, but the implication that Combat is a bad spec SOLELY because of this is staggering

 

and yes, I have had Troopers and Consulars nagging at me as soon as they see my Ataru Form. Feels great to have that at the beginning of a warzone, and then 3 or 4 MVP votes at the end

[Mal-Sharran]

I was actually more referring to the people of other classes nagging me for not being Watchman

 

I make no denial that Watchman can easily beat Combat in damage, but the implication that Combat is a bad spec SOLELY because of this is staggering

 

and yes, I have had Troopers and Consulars nagging at me as soon as they see my Ataru Form. Feels great to have that at the beginning of a warzone, and then 3 or 4 MVP votes at the end

 

I'm sorry if I misunderstood then. Yeah, it was a rude awakening for me when I finally decided to try Watchman and found my performance boosted, because I didn't want a valid reason to give up Combat. I don't personally rag on another sentinel when I see him in Ataru, but I'm only a mild elitist, so maybe I'm too nice. I don't take criticism from anybody other than other Sentinels, because if you don't have a 50 of my class, you shouldn't comment on it, since you have no hands on experience.

 

I miss my ranged snare, and my MS snare (when it worked), and my guaranteed crits and 100% armor pen...I miss it all. I can't wait for them to fix the problems. And I really, really hope they make Precision Strike identical to Overload Saber, give it charges instead of a minuscule window of time for you to push out damage. Not gonna hold my breath though...

 

As an aside, you seem to be set in stone for Combat, and I was too. Honest, I stuck with Combat wellllllllll into 50 and scoffed at other specs, even when told otherwise by people I trusted. Then my curiosity got the better of me, I tried Watchman, and sucked. Because I didn't know how to play it well (I'm still learning for that matter). But if you put in the time, the spec is actually really fun. 80% run speed, a 4 second stealth/damage immunity, 4-5k Merc Slash (even though it counts as two hits so you don't get the 5k PvP medal) and pushing over 100k healing in a WZ...it's all pretty ******. It really is worthwhile to maybe expand your horizons and at least contemplate trying other specs. Gives you insight if nothing else.

[Metaspark]

I just have a thing for the underdog. it's why my main is a sentinel in the first place. it's why I can't bring myself to play my BH or Trooper. it's why I refused to be a sorcerer on my inquisitor. it's why I refuse to be anything but heals on my Sage (which I also have trouble playing) etc. etc.

 

 

I have too much of a hard on for Combat until it actually becomes equal or surpasses Watchman to ever try anything else

[Enexemander]

Can someone give me a quick run down on what makes combat complicated?

 

I'm trying the spec now.

[Mal-Sharran]

Can someone give me a quick run down on what makes combat complicated?

 

I'm trying the spec now.

 

Not an easy question, and I'm out of practice now, so I'd likely fail at it. But the largest handicap for the spec right now is the mechanical flaws in it. Stutter and ability misfire are at the top of that list.

 

I never really found Combat all that complicated, but who knows if I was playing it correctly? It's all priority based.

 

Once you leap in, unlike Watchman, you never have to leap again. Then Strike and Zealous Strike become your only source of Focus. Combat revolves around Precision Slash. You want to get the most out of it, which means using those 6 seconds as efficiently as possible.

 

As often as possible, you want to combine Precision with Master Strike. This is your single highest source of damage, hands down. I easily did 6-8k (with outdated gear since I haven't been Combat in over a month). Second priority, which will be more frequent, is combining Precision with a guaranteed crit Blade Storm. Since Blade Storm is kinetic damage, which is influenced by armor, this is perfect. Lastly, combine Precision with Zen whenever possible. Blade Rush hits for weapon damage, and Ataru strike is Energy damage which is also influenced by armor pen. These are the three abilities you most often want to use while paired with Precision.

 

The problem comes from the 9 seconds of downtime between when Precision wears off and when you can use it again. During this time your damage lags a bit, since 100% of your damage is mitigated by armor. It's during this time you want to pool (but not waste) your Focus. Try to get into a groove where you use Zealous and one to two Strikes in order to be ready to dump next time Precision is available.

 

It all comes down to priorities, knowing what to use and when. Just like any resource system that builds up instead of wears down (Focus vs. Ammo) you are never 'wasting' resources by building them up, so long as you don't hit, say, Zealous Strike with 7 or more Focus. This is already long enough, probably put you to sleep...

Edited March 14, 2012 by Mal-Sharran

[Bejarid]

[For Combat, it] all comes down to priorities, knowing what to use and when. Just like any resource system that builds up instead of wears down (Focus vs. Ammo) you are never 'wasting' resources by building them up, so long as you don't hit, say, Precision Strike with 7 or more Focus.

 

Pretty much this. I love Combat; been Combat since 32, and was Focus before that. Tried Watchman for about two days at fifty and simply could not get the hang of it. Granted, that's not exactly long enough to really get into it, but I figured that if I was still popping Zen with no burns ready after two days of grueling play that the spec was just not for me.

 

To add the the quoted's helpful information, I'd like to add some insights I've had about Combat. In particular is the "downtime," which I consider to be any point at which Precision Slash and/or Zealous Strike is/are on cooldown and Zen is not yet primed. Here, I try to adapt a focus-neutral rotation (yes, I said it, rotation) where I simply Strike->Blade Rush; talented, BR refunds one focus for a net loss of two, which is exactly what Strike brings in. Sprinkle in your Combat Trance auto-crit Blade Storms and it's pretty solid and fluid. Need to watch ZS, of course, to dump so that as little of its gain is wasted before adapting back into the neutral cycle or prepping for another Zen burst.