Please don't trivialize PVP gear in 1.2

[Dego_Locc]

if the only reason you play pvp is to get a gear advantage.... what is the point? do you honestly feel you have more skill than the guy who has a 20-30% dissadvantage in stats? i mean if we go play basketball just you and me would you really feel like you had won if i gave you a 30 pt head start? who is going to think you are more skilled when you tell them you won but had a 30 pt headstart. its not compettition if your gear is carrying you. ya ya "do the grind put in your time". why? so i can finally compete me vs you not gear vs gear? no thanks guildwars 2 is coming.

 

This aint basketball, its an MMO.

 

It ain't fair. Deal with it.

 

I would put my champ gear on and duel a BM anytime, or duel or fight 1 on 1 naked. The gear stat gap was so minimal why even cry over it, it gave the game more longevity. But you automatically assume since we have BM that we have no lives and we really suck hard at this game with all our time invested and only use our 4% advantage over lower gears as a huge crutch. And that's the reason we win and you casuals who are still in greens, blues , and oranges after being in the 50's warzones for weeks, still lose. Gear is why I lost is the lamest cop out ever. And your wish is granted you will all have even gear soon, and guess what, you will still die just as much.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Dego_Locc

[CharleyDanger]

I was a hardcore CoD player for a long time. One thing CoD got right was that even at lvl 1 you were given the tools to be successful. Was it a bit easier once you hit 50? Yes, but just a bit. At lvl 50 I had a few more tools in my bag, but I was not miles better because of it. In any multi-player games I think its important to make the difference between winning and losing 95% Skill and 5% gear. A fresh 50 does not have much of a chance against a fully geared BM, and the gear will play a bigger roll than it should imo. I have no problem giving a fresh 50 gear that will let them compete. If I PvP 20 hours a week am I any better than someone who plays 5 hours a week? Maybe I suck for 20 hours a week and the other guy just had a baby and can only play for 5 hours a week. In that 5 hours he could be the best on that server, why should he be punished?

 

PvP gear should be cosmetic, it should be something that show prestige (CoD lol) and at most should have perks (Cod again like a set bonus. What fun is it winning a 1v1 or 1v2 when I know it was mostly my expertise stat and not my skill? I mean PvE gear only progressively ups the stats so you can successful take down progressively more difficult NPCs. In PvP players dont get progressively more difficult. why should my stats sky rocket?

[Quantemoq]

True PvP'ers want competition against equal skill level competitors.

 

Please don't post unless you understand this. You really think true PvP'ers care more about grinding gear than defeating a rival guild's team on an equal footing with no excuses?

 

TH

 

questions:

 

how high do you think the percentage of those 'true pvp'ers' is among all other pvp'ers?

 

how long do you think the wz-listing time would be, if all non-true pvper's would leave?

 

with that szenario, how often do you think you'd see wzs other then huttball?

[WhyNoNumbers]

It is still about skill now, and even more of a challenge. When ppl on their alts can wear centurion and still beat a BM.

 

It works both ways.

 

Even playing field means eating our biggest carrot too soon, with minimal effort. Colors and mounts are not carrot that ppl will pay a monthly sub to chase sadly. Would be nice if it would be enough, BUT it won't be.

 

This logic is so flawed it practically doesn't deserve a response. Look, if you are playing this game to "chase a carrot," in the traditional EQ/Vanilla WoW sense then stop! Why would any rational person, who is aware that he or she is actively being baited like a pony, continue to engage themselves in that behavior? Yes, this is an online game, and despite whether or not you believe MMOs should inherently be time-sinks, doesn't change the fact that such a model is outdated, stale, and completely lacking at engaging players in a meaningful way. Play for fun, and competition, not for hours spent.

 

That is the new trend of MMOs, "skill and competition" over hours spent. You cannot stop this, and it should not be stopped. The EQ model was pathetic and given the creativity and technology available was what they had at the time of inception. That doesn't mean it should continue. If you choose to fail to accept this, please just cancel so progress can be made.

Edited March 12, 2012 by WhyNoNumbers

[ursuul]

This was suppose to be my next MMO, not my next stop over, but like so many others, I too am waiting for GW2, so w/e hand out free gear. Its not likely I am going to commit to a hard grind. And regardless if you PvE or PvP, if you are hardcore or casual, if you aren't enjoying what you do, you are going to stop doing it. It can be said doubly for the people that only do for gear.

 

i agree i just can't understand why there is no pvp mmo yet. i guess they keep trying and failing but it is clear the demand is out there. you know, for people who don't use a video game as a sense of acomplishment but rather for recreation. people will hate me for this and im sure the flames are coming but all i want is a game that is as responsive as wow, servers are stable like wow, has open world pvp (war or daoc style) and spends the developers time on ballance not on a gear grind.

all i ever see are wow pve clones.... were is the wow clone that focuses on pvp? seriously point me to that game 'cause im done with this one.

[ursuul]

This aint basketball, its an MMO.

 

It ain't fair. Deal with it.

 

I would put my champ gear on and duel a BM anytime, or duel or fight 1 on 1 naked. The gear stat gap was so minimal why even cry over it, it gave the game more longevity. But you automatically assume since we have BM that we have no lives and we really suck hard at this game with all our time invested and only use our 4% advantage over lower gears as a huge crutch. And that's the reason we win and you casuals who are still in greens, blues , and oranges after being in the 50's warzones for weeks, still lose. Gear is why I lost is the lamest cop out ever. And your wish is granted you will all have even gear soon, and guess what, you will still die just as much.

 

4%? hmm im not capped and i have 11% which unless im mistaken works both ways 11% more damage and 11% less damage taken. im in cent gear...... so ya you go get your fresh 50 and duel any BM you want. let me know how it goes. my point was not cent vs bm its that gear gives an advantage at all.

this isnt basket ball its an MMO.... do i really need to explain that to you? you really didn't get that i was talking about competition?

and your right it did provide longevity. we all waited to see if this would be EXACTLY like wow. it is. watch the subs plummet.

it has been said time and again. real pvp'ers dont want a gear advantage.

[_DaGreat]

Well according to your definition of a "True PvP player", I don't think there are that many honestly. Not enough to carry or merit a substantial part of the subscriber base. I think a lot of pvpers will leave without gear progression, wether you consider them "True" (lol) or not.

 

And in the end that will affect the game.

 

It will be even more geared to just casual pver's that is where the majority of the money is at. Although everyone else who ever tried to copy WOW, has yet to pull it off and instead kill their game.

 

I am not understanding the concept of "true PVPer" either. At the end of the day this is a 'RPG' which implies gear/character progression. IF we are to carry out the 'true PVPer' concept further then why not allow everyone the same skills then everyone is truly equal and the 'true PVPer' will be happy... that sound about right?

[Dego_Locc]

4%? hmm im not capped and i have 11% which unless im mistaken works both ways 11% more damage and 11% less damage taken..

The 4% is roughly the difference between BM and a champ/centurion combo you could easily get in a week.

At full BM you're not even at 15% total stats above someone not wearing any pvp gear.

 

But with a weeks worth of dailies you could be only 4% weeker than a BM was my point.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Dego_Locc

[Mayams]

You have it backwards, and twisted. Both sides care about gear, for the same reason. The people who don't have the TIME to get the gear, cry about it on both sides. The people that don't have the time, feel they have a right to have things welfared to them because they pay too.

 

As an analogy, if you're a boxer you build yourself skill (technical practice, i.e. 'engaging in pvp') and you build your strength (i.e. you weight train, or 'get gear to improve stats') so we see the example, your type of people basically state, since you only have time to do technical skill, everyone else shouldn't be allowed to build both.

 

When you have TWO evenly skilled players, the strength, or gear is the tie breaker. Its how it is in life, and in games. The thing is you want to remove the second part of that because it requires YOU to put in extra time.

 

You don't want to fine, maybe other players will do extra ilum runs, and more WZ's to climb that ladder and have our gear create tiers.

 

Other than the fact that people are butthurt because they get owned in PVP, there's no reason to make a RP MMO's pvp turn into call of duty.

 

I'm sorry you don't have time for PVP and PVE, neither do I, so I run PVP almost exclusively. Does that mean I should get a welfare T3 PVE set?

 

No, nor should you get a free tier of PVP armor. It's really simple.

 

That's pretty weak. By that logic, if I were entered in enough matches, as a matter of course I would eventually gain the title.

 

And 1st: skill and ability aren't crafted in a sanctioned match, it's done so through years of dedicated practice. Just because you can put on gloves doesn't mean you can get in the ring with Ali. 2nd: gain strength from weight training correlates to gear? Tell 'Sweetpea' Whittaker that as you shove him in the ring with 'Iron' Mike, or Buster Douglas for that matter. There are weight classes for a reason.

 

The people you are disagreeing with concerning the definition of "true" PvP and a "true" PvP'er are saying they want completely homogenous "strength, size, and weight class". The only determinant factor in winning or losing would be skill and abilitiy. It is the gear or, "strength and weight training", part of the equasion that would allow Travis Browne (rank 10 hvy.) to smash bantam weight champ Dominick Cruz.

 

At least the people saying if they wanted that type of game they'd go play Counter Strike are being honest about the circumstances of the PvP playing field.

 

And the truth is simple, time invested = access to better gear. Plain and simple, that is all. You may be the greatest PvP'er born to humanity, for lack of time to PvP though your gear will reflect the amount of time you could spend doing it, and only that. Conversely you may be the most abyssmal PvP'er known to mankind, even lacking opposable thumbs! The same rule holds true for this person though, if they have 20 hrs. a day to devote to PvP, their gear will reflect that time investment, and ONLY that time investment.

 

We can have discourse about whether the system in place is right or wrong but lets not make aquiring high tier PvP gear out to be any more honorable or difficult pursuit than it is. If you have it, it's because you had the free time to put into it. It has nothing to do with anyone's "1337" skills or "pwning noobs"

 

All I'll contribute to the argument at hand though is this: Pretty much everyone I know that likes PvP (myself included) LOVES the 10-49 PvP, because we are generally in the "same weight class", despite some not having all their clas skills yet. 50 PvP, becomes the gear/token/KB grind we all became accustomed to in WoW where even winning or losing took a backseat to the quickest path to that next piece of gear.

 

I say give the gear away so we can put the actual competition first priority again as it should be.

 

In the end it will be built around BW's first priority though and that's most likely sub. retention and dollars. But hey that works to our benefit as well if that money goes to provide a better game.

[Quantemoq]

I am not understanding the concept of "true PVPer" either. At the end of the day this is a 'RPG' which implies gear/character progression. IF we are to carry out the 'true PVPer' concept further then why not allow everyone the same skills then everyone is truly equal and the 'true PVPer' will be happy... that sound about right?

 

yes genetics are so unfair

and the worst part is that unlike gear grinding, people with higher iq and faster reflexes have most of them from birth without any sort of effort or time spend.

 

i'd say everyone participating in pvp has to make and iq test and those above average have to be drunk before they are allowed to play with the others (to make up for their unfair genetic skill advantage)

 

^^

[ursuul]

questions:

 

how high do you think the percentage of those 'true pvp'ers' is among all other pvp'ers?

 

how long do you think the wz-listing time would be, if all non-true pvper's would leave?

 

with that szenario, how often do you think you'd see wzs other then huttball?

 

well considering there is already a "game" out there with gear vs gear pvp, i imagine this game has a large portion of the "true pvp'ers" (read as: "people sick of gear>all") you know you can see the reverse of your question as soon as the next mmo hits. (your ques will be left with nothing but those pvp'ing for gear as opposed to actually playing because they like it)

[Dego_Locc]

I am not understanding the concept of "true PVPer" either. At the end of the day this is a 'RPG' which implies gear/character progression. IF we are to carry out the 'true PVPer' concept further then why not allow everyone the same skills then everyone is truly equal and the 'true PVPer' will be happy... that sound about right?

Pretty much

[Quantemoq]

well considering there is already a "game" out there with gear vs gear pvp, i imagine this game has a large portion of the "true pvp'ers" (read as: "people sick of gear>all") you know you can see the reverse of your question as soon as the next mmo hits. (your ques will be left with nothing but those pvp'ing for gear as opposed to actually playing because they like it)

 

well maybe you are right. in that case we are looking towards an aera of great pvp experience in swtor in the coming months.

 

(i really hope you are)

[CharleyDanger]

4%? hmm im not capped and i have 11% which unless im mistaken works both ways 11% more damage and 11% less damage taken. im in cent gear...... so ya you go get your fresh 50 and duel any BM you want. let me know how it goes. my point was not cent vs bm its that gear gives an advantage at all.

this isnt basket ball its an MMO.... do i really need to explain that to you? you really didn't get that i was talking about competition?

and your right it did provide longevity. we all waited to see if this would be EXACTLY like wow. it is. watch the subs plummet.

it has been said time and again. real pvp'ers dont want a gear advantage.

 

Exactly! I just started playing MMOs, and coming from FPSs, I could not believe that multi-player (PvP as you guys call it) had such gear advantages. I could not imagine playing CoD or Battlefield and having players that had weapons that were 10% better overall. Some weapons do 10% more damage but fire 10% slower. Your BM/Cent gear example would be like having a weapon that had 10% more damage and fired 10% faster. I think gear bonuses are fine, its like a perk system, but overall stat increases makes no sense in a PvP setting.

[WhyNoNumbers]

Pretty much

 

Hardly, this is simply the players choice to tailor their strategy to PvPing in the way they most enjoy or decide is advantageous. Ever heard of a playbook? Drafting different skill sets?

[Dego_Locc]

Hardly, this is simply the players choice to tailor their strategy to PvPing in the way they most enjoy or decide is advantageous. Ever heard of a playbook? Drafting different skill sets?

 

Longevity, ever heard of it? It's kinda required in subscription based MMO's.

[CharleyDanger]

I am not understanding the concept of "true PVPer" either. At the end of the day this is a 'RPG' which implies gear/character progression. IF we are to carry out the 'true PVPer' concept further then why not allow everyone the same skills then everyone is truly equal and the 'true PVPer' will be happy... that sound about right?

 

The only reason the PvE gear progresses is that the NPCs progress. In PvP the goal is to progress ones skill not gear. Only when all play on a lvl field can anyone truly test their skill. When ppl talk about true PvPers they are talking about the ones that only care about testing their skill against others. If gear plays too much of a roll then the skill is not truly tested and the PvPer is left unsatisfied.

 

The different skill between classes makes the battle more strategic, its adds another test of skill. The difference between classes give advantages and disadvantages alike. Better gear only gives an advantage.

Edited March 12, 2012 by CharleyDanger

[ursuul]

well maybe you are right. in that case we are looking towards an aera of great pvp experience in swtor in the coming months.

 

(i really hope you are)

 

i hope so too. see i don't want to ruin your game if this is what it's going to be (period of hazing when hit 50 followed by hours of saying "i wonder if it ballances out once i have the gear" only to then get the gear and have devs announce new season.... wait what game is this) if you like this system cool. play it. but where the hell is the game for the rest of us who don't take any pride in a video game and just play for fun? where is our 3rd person view, non twitch gaming, pvp? and if you want the type of pvp you describe why play this and not WoW?

[Revotz]

Pvp'er = one who loves Pvp. (these folks look forward to more targets)

Loothorde = one who loves gear. (these folks will be upset)

 

Not sure I understand the confusion.

 

Pvp'ers just wanna pvp...

 

p.s. Your gear is already trivial, in comparison to the force...

 

hey get yer qq outta my pew pew

 

Thats true, I'm a pvper, and I jsut want to do pvp....I dont care about gear, I pick up the gear just to not be in disadvantage.

 

And yes, I heard that rank lvl 70 will be needed, so its fine...theres no problem at all here.

[WhyNoNumbers]

Longevity, ever heard of it? It's kinda required in subscription based MMO's.

 

Oh really? Thats right, nobody plays CS anymore, or SC. MMOs must be different based on your mystical reasoning... Engaging competition drives longevity more than any other model as it should. This is proven far beyond the realm of PC gaming. Your simplicity astounds me

Edited March 12, 2012 by WhyNoNumbers

[Arkerus]

I see the "I want better gear because I'm special and its totally not about beating the snot out of everyone else club" is still in full effect.

[Pueopueplelipas]

Welcome to MMOs? I will say it again, if you are looking for a game type where time played does not give an advantage, there are plenty of fps' out there for you.

 

You sir are wrong.

 

Time put into an FPS is time well rewarded with experience and knowledge. You learn map movements, player tactics, and so much more from putting in the time.

[Keldaur]

The 4% is roughly the difference between BM and a champ/centurion combo you could easily get in a week.

At full BM you're not even at 15% total stats above someone not wearing any pvp gear.

 

But with a weeks worth of dailies you could be only 4% weeker than a BM was my point.

 

You are wrong. My current champion weapon/offhand and full cent one week 50 sorc has 1300 willpower (with stimpack ofc). A BM geared is around 1600-1700 (with 2-3 PvE pieces). If you know some math, you will realize that isn't a roughly 15%, more like a 20% (20% more damage or heal). And that isn't for someone "not wearing any pvp gear. Not only that, the power and surge (which centurion doesn't deliver) are much higher. Getting more than what i got on a week, is being already battlemaster rank nowaydays.

 

And in before you say "lol u want free epix", i have 2 full BM toons. I know my ****.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Keldaur

[CharleyDanger]

You sir are wrong.

 

Time put into an FPS is time well rewarded with experience and knowledge. You learn map movements, player tactics, and so much more from putting in the time.

 

I dont understand it lol. MMO PvP is FPSs multiplayer essentially. CoD and Battlefield have had it right for years and they have millions upon millions of happy loyal fans. All I hear is how no MMO has gotten PvP just right. Well ****, is the model not just sitting there looking MMO devs in the face?

 

Look at what CoD did. They took MMO aspects and put it in a FPS multi-player and its now the most successful game franchise every. Imagine what it would be like if there was a true marriage between the two.

 

I dont know what will come first, CoD/Battlefield MMO or SWTOR/WOW with perks and killstreaks, but ill **** my self with joy for either one lol.

[Agemnon]

I needed that laugh! Still, it's a pretty long joke. Of course everyone knows that a better rating is the reward itself.