ComeAndSee Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 Do vanguards have the same mechanic as commandos where there ammo regen is dependent upon how much ammo you have? Like with troops, if you keep your ammo over 60%, it regens faster.. Yes, same mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon_Fortune Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I'm leveling my first Vanguard and my ammo regen hasn't been a huge issue and I've had a much faster path to leveling my Vanguard than my Commando, but then again I'm not a huge technical player, I fly by the seat of my armored pants. When I get low, I make sure my Companion is taking aggro and giving me a minute to breathe and get off a couple of Hammer shots and stay away from burst shots until my ammo is sufficient for a shot or two. Again, I'm not a very strategic player but I try to manage my ammo as best as I can. I do agree we could use a wee bit of fine tuning on the ammo regen but its not critical need at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hizoka Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 basically this is a QQ thread about people do not want to have to manage their resource?? come on now this is a load of crap. If you just want to spam everything non stop what is the point to having a resource system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TehMerc Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 My "quality of life" example. Shield: 1. Energy Blast has a 8s cooldown. 2. Ammo on Shield's increased to 100% chance. Same 6s cooldown. 3. Talent that reduces the cost of Pulse Cannon + Explosive Surge by 1 ammo. There'd be no reason to take anything but a Vanguard when it came to aoe and threat in general if you implemented changes like those. We already have some great aoe, my guardian tanks already lament multi target tanking when I'm in the party. Ammo regen is the only thing keeping vanguard tanks in line with guardian tanks via their reduced focus generation from not getting increased focus through their slashes in shi-cho stance. They didn't just make this up as they went along. Haven't seen too many shadow tanks to know what their aoe is like, but it didn't seem that substantial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaigen Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Take away the need to hammer shot and all that will happen is we will Ion Pulse more, which doesn't exactly make gameplay more interesting. Ammo management is what creates challenge in Trooper play, considering that any given build has few procs or short-term effects that need to be managed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brudrust Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 basically this is a QQ thread about people do not want to have to manage their resource?? come on now this is a load of crap. If you just want to spam everything non stop what is the point to having a resource system? When you want to do this, you just play a sage/sorcerer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComeAndSee Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 There'd be no reason to take anything but a Vanguard when it came to aoe and threat in general if you implemented changes like those. We already have some great aoe, my guardian tanks already lament multi target tanking when I'm in the party. Ammo regen is the only thing keeping vanguard tanks in line with guardian tanks via their reduced focus generation from not getting increased focus through their slashes in shi-cho stance. They didn't just make this up as they went along. Haven't seen too many shadow tanks to know what their aoe is like, but it didn't seem that substantial. Ever try and AOE tank 16 mans trash? It's a nightmare. o_o 4 + 8 mans are a breeze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) I'm not sure if this has been said, but you have to weave Hammer shots. If you're doing Hammer in between your other moves, you'll never run out of ammo. I normally.. Storm SS Pulse Hammer Sticky hammer HIB Hammer Pulse Hammer Etc That way, I don't run out and have to spam hammer over and over. Edited March 15, 2012 by Galbatorrix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
va_wanderer Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) You guys are misunderstanding my original post. I -NEVER- run out of ammo, but the only way to efficiently manage your ammo rotation is having to stop and Hammer Shot for long periods of time. It's not a L2P post as everything gets spinned around these days, but my opinion of an area of our class that needs a quality of life polish (besides full auto+mortar volley). I disagree with this. See my above post- the proper method is alternating your ammo-consuming attacks with Hammer Shot. It's sorta like breathing. Hammer Shot is taking in a deep breath (inb4 "it sucks?" jokes), instants burn it off, channeled abilities are generally a less efficient "draw" than the pause from Hammer Shot, and we get occasional boosts of our "reserve tank" from our talents. A good sustained Trooper DPS really is like marathon running. You maximize performance as far as you can without compromising endurance. Learn to make your rotation breathe. It's definitely doable, Vanguard and Commando both. At max regen, you can keep a stable pattern of 2-ammo ability -> Hammer -> 2-ammo ability -> Hammer Shot pretty much indefinitely at zero Alacrity. Breathe out, breathe in, breathe out, breathe in. If you have a proc or ability that'll give you an extra step up on the ammo bar like a freebie HIB, you can go 2-ammo ability -> HIB (+1 ammo from HIB) -> 2-ammo ability as many times as you have that proc going off, after which you just resume your 2/hammer/2. Don't think of it as "using your crappy ability". It's a Plasma or Ion cell proc chance, it gets boosted by hitting burning targets, it keeps you producing damage even as you're recharging for the next shot instead of having to space them every 3 seconds instead to maintain ammo levels. The temptation is to hammer all the buttons in an effort to get more damage RIGHT NOW. Ammo burnout ruins anything other than burst DPS, and that's not an uncommon habit in low-level troopers (PvE and PvP), since they're just blowing away a simple group that often can't take an entire ammo-bar worth of abilities from a Trooper and companion anyway. Ammo burnout is often GOOD in those cases, because you need the other guys dead -right now- and it doesn't matter that you're down to Hammering because they're faceplanted and you're not because of spamming your abilities. TL;DR Edit: I'm not sure if this has been said, but you have to weave Hammer shots. If you're doing Hammer in between your other moves, you'll never run out of ammo. QFT. Edited March 15, 2012 by va_wanderer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loxion Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Personally, I have no ammo management problems as a lvl 50 Vanguard tank specced. Remember, your ammo regen rate reduces as you get lower on ammo. I rarely go below 70% ammo unless we really need to max DPS on a target. You don't need to use all your skills to maintain aggro and you aren't there for DPS. In most boss fights, after a few minutes I can hold aggro on a single target using nothing more than Neural Jolt, I don't even need damage to maintain threat. The only skills I really use when tanking bosses are: Ion Pulse (Not often) Sticky Grenade (Not often) Smoke Grenade Storm (to initiate) Stock Strike HIB Explosive Round Energy Blast (to regen, I spam a few skills just as it comes up) Crit Chance and other boosting skills when needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_coaltrain Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Honestly I feel our ammo regen doesn't allow for the burst the jedi classes get at least to me they have little to suffer from after dropping their bar to zero. It's completley on par with other tech users. I like they we have option to go all out but will suffer the diminshed regen or we can play smart and efficient. However, the only change I would like to see is the regen for troopers (as VG at least) go up about .2 across the scale which I think would be .8 ammo a second at max instead of .6 (BH counter as well, just not sure of the figures on regen). Assault could use a little more steadiness to it instead of luck procs. I've killed 3v1 and lost 1v1's because of the HiB procs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscibi Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I'm not sure if this has been said, but you have to weave Hammer shots. If you're doing Hammer in between your other moves, you'll never run out of ammo. I normally.. Storm SS Pulse Hammer Sticky hammer HIB Hammer Pulse Hammer Etc That way, I don't run out and have to spam hammer over and over. but you are spamming hammer shot. this thread is about not spamming hammer shot and you posted to tell us you spam hammer shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
va_wanderer Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Spamming Hammer Shot is...sitting there firing Hammer Shot repeatedly multiple times in a row. Which you shouldn't have to do. But whining about having to use Hammer Shot is like complaining about having to use your focus-boosting basic attack as a Jedi. Everyone has a "baseline" attack that's part of their rotation. HS is ours. What you should never need to do is use HS twice, three times, more without firing off anything else. Use ammo, Hammer Shot, use ammo, Hammer Shot if you want to keep sustained DPS. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscibi Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Spamming Hammer Shot is...sitting there firing Hammer Shot repeatedly multiple times in a row. Which you shouldn't have to do. But whining about having to use Hammer Shot is like complaining about having to use your focus-boosting basic attack as a Jedi. Everyone has a "baseline" attack that's part of their rotation. HS is ours. What you should never need to do is use HS twice, three times, more without firing off anything else. Use ammo, Hammer Shot, use ammo, Hammer Shot if you want to keep sustained DPS. Simple as that. So to use 6 attacks you have to use 6 Hammer shots. This is what he is saying, and your agreeing with him. now i will try and say this as slowly as i can. Its not that vanguards have to use it thats a bit crappy its the fact that they rely on it so much. esp as you are argeeing with half of our attacks using hammer shot. Sage doesnt have this problem. In fact if a sage is using his auto attack he is doing something wrong. Commando doesnt have this problem its more of a filler when moving rather then ammo management And as the focus boosting attack on jedi, theres a slight difference. or a massive difference depending on how high your IQ is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TehMerc Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 The only spec that does this is shield, and it's done to keep them inline with the other tanks, specifically guardians. Tactics has Cell Generator and Assault has HiB procs, both so they can do more damage and not rely heavily on hammershot. If you don't want to use hammer shot definitely go Tactics and hammer shot maybe every other 2 attacks unless you just burned something down. Guardians probably use their hammer shot ( ie strike and sundering strike) just as much. If you didn't have to worry about hammershotting you'd always be the better tank for threat, it's how they balance a focus building class with one that starts with all their resources at the start for tanking. This is assuming you're talking about shield spec, if you're assault and having ammo problems, well tactics is damned ammo efficient so eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyla Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 So you want to use less HS and more your other abilities ? To do that they would have to reduce the damage of all thoses abilities or you damage output would increase too much. It would means lower burst damage and less solo capabilities. Vanguards aren't the only like this, it's the same with the other tanks. They need to use basic attacks to have enough ressources and Bioware can't let them go all out with their more damaging abilities without making them OP or having to decrease their viability in leveling/solo/PvP content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokits Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) thats not true u have to kill ur keyboard to do 400dps ++ in rakatta gear and the amo downtime is too mutch wile for a gunslinger or other classes its just a walk in the park they can pull 500 + easily or even more ( notice this measurements were made by rakatta geared players in pve specs ( DPS ) fighting battlemaster geared oponents in several warzones checking the dps done at the board on the end of the warzones ) Edited March 17, 2012 by Lokits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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