No More Autoattack in 1.2 Please!

[ComeAndSee]

I'm really hoping that in 1.2 they will give Vanguard's better ammo management so we don't have to rely so much on boring auto attacks. It's really a lame design that I have all these abilities that I can't always use because I risk of running out of ammo.

 

Commando's, however have a much more efficient resource system because of frequent ammo returns that scale with their gear and talents that reduce the overall cost of their abilities. The closest equivalent we have on the Vanguard is chance on hit free no-cost abilities, but it doesn't solve the problem with running out of ammo and its completely RNG.

 

I want to be able to use more of our abilities instead of having to stop for ten seconds or slow down my abilities to auto attack and regenerate my resources.

 

//

 

Shield -

* 50% chance on shield to regenerate 1 Ammo. This only works when you're being hit and it doesn't proc all the time in PvP. There's too many problems with this talent because so many abilities go through defensive stats.

 

* Energy blast on 15s cooldown. This is our main source of Ammo and its on such a long cooldown!!!

 

Tactics -

* 1 ammo every 6 seconds. This is probably one of the best consistent ammo returns, but it doesn't scale like getting ammo back on crits (3s cooldown).

 

* 30% chance with Ion Pulse for next Stockstrike to be free.

 

Assault Specialist -

* Ammo on when you're being CC spammed. Only good for PvP and it has a 3s internal cooldown despite what it says.

 

* High Impact Bolts regenerates 1 ammo on burning targets. This is either with our cell or with the ultra expensive 3 ammo ability.

 

* 30% chance on Ion Pulse and 45% on Stock Strikes for free High Impact Bolts.

Edited March 10, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[Manaruka]

Every time I am healing a Powertech tank he overheats to 80+ after about 1 min and stays there untill the boss is dead.

 

In the words of Developers.......working as intended

[Oscibi]

its pretty hard to get a balance between doing dmg/keeping your ammo regen at a decent rate

[ComeAndSee]

its pretty hard to get a balance between doing dmg/keeping your ammo regen at a decent rate

 

That really is the only challenging aspect of playing a Vanguard, but it feels very unpolished and crude having to rely so much on extra damage on auto attacks. For Commando's auto-attacking is their mobility damage, but Vanguard's have to live around it because there's a gaping hole with our ammo management.

 

Most people get surprised when I tell them about how much I have to auto attack. It's the unique -- and infamous part of our class.

Edited March 10, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[TehMerc]

I really haven't had any issues as tactics keeping a pretty optimal rotation up along with staying in the optimal ammo range. Using Fire Pulse then a Stockstrike's typically enough time to get back above that first line if I'm not trying to burn something down.

 

If I'm further down I'll typically burn up Reserve Powercell and use Mortar Volley or Pulse Cannon if there's no adds to worry about on the fight, does the trick using FP and SS, with a hammer shot or two mixed in to get me back into place.

 

The biggest thing is mixing in Hammer Shots earlier on rather than later, to keep riding that edge. Can't really talk about the other specs as I don't play em, got a shield vanguard I plan on levelling soon though :3

 

The only time ammo becomes an issue is in PvP when I'm chasing down healers or it's a very long fight on a voidstar door, but focus classes have to deal with not burning someone down from the get go so I feel it's fine.

[The_FLIPmode]

I didn't know we had an auto-attack skill in SWTOR...

[WinterWraith]

I don't have much trouble at all with my ammo. In the rare event I let it get low I can just use Recharge Cells and be a bit more careful with it for two minutes.

 

Also Hammer Shot is one of our only abilities that actually uses blaster bolts. Take away our need to use that and we might as well have an electrified stick.

[Savish]

I can see resource mechanics be balanced a bit more in the future certain class/specs are just far too efficient and others it seems like your always on empty.

[Oscibi]

That really is the only challenging aspect of playing a Vanguard, but it feels very unpolished and crude having to rely so much on extra damage on auto attacks. For Commando's auto-attacking is their mobility damage, but Vanguard's have to live around it because there's a gaping hole with our ammo management.

 

Most people get surprised when I tell them about how much I have to auto attack. It's the unique -- and infamous part of our class.

 

a bit of a pain when your trying to kill healers tho.

 

when playing mando healer and being attacked by a pt/vg you can pretty much laugh at them, i lose maybe 2 casts for every 4 I make but after the first 30 secs they are usually out of ammo and spend the rest of the time tickling me.

[Decembrist]

Did you consider that Commando do casted/channeled spells and Vanguards do mostly instant casts? If we could spit out our damaging abilities unconstrained by anything, we'd just be OP. If they removed Hammer Shot from our rotation they'd have to significantly lower the damage of other abilities. I personally would rather have them hit harder and shoot some Hammer Shots in between, I don't think that auto attack makes the combat boring.

[va_wanderer]

Gah. As an Assault Vanguard, I find ammo management is part of the challenge...and even then, I have a nice solid damage rotation with Ion Pulse, Stockstrike, and High Impact Bolt.

 

Hammer Shot is filler when I don't get an Acclerator proc. I sit there with four bars of ammo regen, and Recharge Cells/Reserve Powercell is enough for any rough spots. The interesting points are when a mob has me moving or needing to interrupt.

 

If you're dropping below 4 bars of ammo recovery, it's a mark that your rotation needs tuning (or you just had to burst DPS something, which in PvP is perfectly normal). I think of DPS as marathon running- you want as much speed as you can get without causing your endurance to fail. Hammer Shot is my "cooldown" skill that helps keep Plasma Cell running smoothly. I don't mind it at all, better than sitting there on my butt doing nothing.

[Oscibi]

Did you consider that Commando do casted/channeled spells and Vanguards do mostly instant casts? If we could spit out our damaging abilities unconstrained by anything, we'd just be OP. If they removed Hammer Shot from our rotation they'd have to significantly lower the damage of other abilities. I personally would rather have them hit harder and shoot some Hammer Shots in between, I don't think that auto attack makes the combat boring.

 

We are constrained, by the GCD just like mando. Most mando casts are 1.5 and the GCD is 1.5 so thats a mute point to make

 

And nobody is saying to remove hammer shot from the rotation just to use it alot less.

[juanni]

Without wanting to sound like a jerk, I think it's a learn to play issue. I have zero problems with ammo management and do not find myself using Hammer Shot excessively.

[Oscibi]

Without wanting to sound like a jerk, I think it's a learn to play issue. I have zero problems with ammo management and do not find myself using Hammer Shot excessively.

 

or maybe not.

 

But i have only used it in pvp and as shield/tact

[Kesrik]

We are constrained, by the GCD just like mando. Most mando casts are 1.5 and the GCD is 1.5 so thats a mute point to make

 

And nobody is saying to remove hammer shot from the rotation just to use it alot less.

 

I'm confused.

[Dragoon-]

Is it so much different from other classes? Only class I played so far is my gunnery commando.

Basically I start with two charged rounds. Then I alternate between tech and standard attack. This keeps my ammo count high enough that I have maximum ammo regeneration.

Actually I regenerate faster than I use up my ammo, so that occasionally I can do a full combo attack of auto fire, demolition round, high impact bolt, standard attack, standard attack, charged round. All these tech attack use 2 ammo.

If I get lucky and have repeatedly my autofire cooldown reset from curtain of fire skill I may need reserve cell or even recharge cells to restore ammo. That ensure I keep my dps constant over a longer period and doesn't drop because I exhausted myself.

Of course depends if I get healed fast enough by my group or companion. Because once I need to use stun and heal myself ammo management goes awry.

 

For me it makes no sense why ammo regeneration speed is tied to the amount of ammo left, but that's the way it is. So don't waste everything in an alpha strike unless you know you kill your target

Edited March 11, 2012 by Dragoon-

[Daekarus]

I think the OP needs to learn some finger discipline. This is how all classes work, actually, there is always some mechanic that mandates the use of standard attacks as filler. And Vanguards don't have an ammo problem at all... in fact, I have been asked how I manage to keep my ammo so high and still keep aggro. Just don't try to burst too much and you'll be fine. If you actually believe that Energy Burst or whatever is our main source of ammo, you're doing it wrong, very wrong. Regen is our main source of ammo, and Energy Burst gives us the luxury of occasional burst damage or more properly the ability to keep our ammo in the highest regen tier as much as possible. If I had more ammo to play with than I do already, I'd never use hammershot and I'd start embarrassing the DPS.

[va_wanderer]

For me it makes no sense why ammo regeneration speed is tied to the amount of ammo left, but that's the way it is. So don't waste everything in an alpha strike unless you know you kill your target

 

Self-regenerating power cells. The more they have to work with, the faster they can replace what's left.

 

Trying to rebuild from near zero < barely having to regenerate one cell instead of ten.

[Smuglerrun]

Well if your spamming ion pulse then your running out of ammo in no time. I use ion pulse much but when im getting low and dont have the reload availeble i start casting channelled abilitys and i also cool down with a free stockstrike when availeble. I use hammer shots when moving into range of ion pulse and when moving out of range. I only use the rifles granade attack when fighting weak mobs.

 

If something has so little life left that a hammer shot will kill it , then use it.

[va_wanderer]

Mind you, I use Hammer Shot regularly- it's like your moment to let the ammo cells "breathe" a little before you start drawing again.

 

Spamming Ion Pulse on the GCD and hoping for enough Accelerator procs to keep ammo high is a recipe for ammo drain instead. Right now, my rotation varies only where I have an Accelerator proc (or need to interrupt the target). I'm using Plasma Cell, so for me Ion Pulse is my burn tool. If you're running Ion Cell for increased defenses, you'll either want to weave Inc. Round in as needed to keep your burn up or spend a few points in Shield to get Stockstrike to 100% proc Ion Cell jolts (or both). You want to feed as many Stockstrikes and Pulses into your rotation as possible to get free HIB's off, without chewing up your ammo below 8 bars.

 

For me it's open with Ion Pulse (target ignition), HIB, Stockstrike, Ion Pulse, Hammer Shot, Ion Pulse, Hammer Shot...Stockstrike refreshes, then Stockstrike -> Ion Pulse, Hammer Shot, Ion Pulse, Hammer Shot, Stockstrike -> Ion Pulse...just that little breather in using Pulse will do wonders for keeping you in the 4-arrow regen rate, especially since you should see Accelerator procs giving you ammo-restoring HIB's. If you start getting strain anyway, you've got Reserve Powercell or Recharge Cells to get you back up (use them if you drop to 3-arrow recharge or less, naturally). Of course, whenever Accelerator procs, you trigger HIB, and if by some misfortune it DOESN'T, fire HIB anyway when it naturally cools down. I usually suggest unless it's a Riot Strike, weave in any other needed abilities to replace where you'd normally Pulse a target- you want Stockstrike to have priority.

 

You can (and if you're doing AoE, will) mix in Pulse Cannon- I usually drop it in immediately after a Stockstrike, then Hammer Shot, Ion Pulse (to restore burn), Stockstrike and resume normal rotation. Ditto Sticky Grenade (or AP)- just drop one in where you'd normally dump a Pulse on your main target.

Edited March 13, 2012 by va_wanderer

[KoshrBacon]

First: I agree with half the people in this post, what "auto attack" are you talking about? This is not WOW, there is no auto-attack.

 

Second: Ammo is typically not a problem unless I am trying to burn down a healer in PVP which involves spamming every interupt inbetween dps abilities. Besides that, once I get through my opener, I simply weave in hammer shots every other ability until I am ~full ammo and am good to go from there. You would be surprised how long you can go without ammo problems when weaving in hammer shot every other CD.

 

If ammo is too much of a problem, perhaps your rotation is not correct or your build is not optimized.

 

Else, roll a sage/shadow... they never run out of force.

[Tsaak]

I don't think that auto attack makes the combat boring.

 

this. i have better ammo management on my vanguard than i do on my powertech simply because you guys get to shoot a rifle with your "auto attack." my BH just pings away with a little caulk-gun-esque pistol. now that makes for boring combat.

[TehMerc]

this. i have better ammo management on my vanguard than i do on my powertech simply because you guys get to shoot a rifle with your "auto attack." my BH just pings away with a little caulk-gun-esque pistol. now that makes for boring combat.

 

Pe- errr Gun Envy?

 

At least you guys get to do the Air Jordan thing with yer fist eh?

[ComeAndSee]

You guys are misunderstanding my original post.

 

I -NEVER- run out of ammo, but the only way to efficiently manage your ammo rotation is having to stop and Hammer Shot for long periods of time. It's not a L2P post as everything gets spinned around these days, but my opinion of an area of our class that needs a quality of life polish (besides full auto+mortar volley).

 

Commandos are a channeled class which allows better ammo efficiency between rotations. That's what makes Full Auto so good for Vanguards.

 

//

 

My "quality of life" example.

 

Shield:

1. Energy Blast has a 8s cooldown.

2. Ammo on Shield's increased to 100% chance. Same 6s cooldown.

3. Talent that reduces the cost of Pulse Cannon + Explosive Surge by 1 ammo.

Edited March 14, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[natehinn]

Do vanguards have the same mechanic as commandos where there ammo regen is dependent upon how much ammo you have? Like with troops, if you keep your ammo over 60%, it regens faster..