Star wars needs more military consultants

[Morticoccus]

The tactic trained by the republic military and used in the cinematic you talk about is in use because of the earlier prevalence of personal shield generators, they protect against blaster fire but not melee attacks, leading to tactics that favor blasters for suppression while closing to melee.

 

Using this tactic against force users however is still idiotic, and the CO for that operation should be shot.

[FalmeseReb]

The tactic trained by the republic military and used in the cinematic you talk about is in use because of the earlier prevalence of personal shield generators, they protect against blaster fire but not melee attacks, leading to tactics that favor blasters for suppression while closing to melee.

 

Using this tactic against force users however is still idiotic, and the CO for that operation should be shot.

 

well he did get a grenade blown up in his face? and besides it wasnt entirely force users. there were a lot of regular troops/droids there too.

[sockrocker]

Using this tactic against force users however is still idiotic, and the CO for that operation should be shot.

 

Ironically he was one of the only ones that survived.

[Xenedus]

Here's why the tactics aren't realistic:

 

Because realistic tactics done well suck to watch. Plain and simple.

 

If a guy is running at you with a sword it would make sense to sit somewhere where he can't reach you and just shoot him but that's not very dramatic so in order to heighten the drama and visuals they have soldiers charging into battle to fight jedi in close quarters even though that is idiotic. If this universe was realistic in the slightest you would almost never SEE fights between soldiers because there's enough super weapons just sitting around in this galaxy that having an army is really just having a large group of mall guards.

 

If Star Wars was going to pretend to be realistic then they wouldn't use soldiers at all. The universe is FILLED with super powerful droids of doom/doomsday weapons/men capable of consuming a planet's life

 

The notion that they should try to be more strategic is silly because THEY CAN'T. The entire Star Wars universe is based around aesthetics and drama and has LONG since thrown tactics and realism out the window. They can't start using logical tactics now because the Star Wars universe quite frankly can't sustain realism because it is based entirely on fantasy and drama.

 

 

Let me use an example: The Star Wars civilization is advanced enough to achieve interstellar travel with giant ships and with much smaller ships and as such the amount of power just sitting around in one of these ships is far more than any bomb earth has ever seen so if you were going to be realistic these 2 civilizations could just wipe eachother off the map with their little transport ships ALONE given the power that's used just to move those behemoths. Every power source doubles as a bomb because all that separates a bomb from a power source is that a power source releases its energy in a steady stream whereas a bomb releases all its energy at once.

 

You can't have realism AND be in the Star Wars universe. They are so far removed from each other that one cannot sustain the other. The military tactics are really just the tip of the ice berg in this regard. Think of Star Wars like D&D you cannot apply realism to D&D because you quickly run into problems like say for instance problems of physics when you use energy substitution electricity on the spell create water and suddenly you've now created a bomb bigger than an atom bomb out of a simple spell that half the population can cast. There are other tricks like the "locate city" bomb. The trick is to take the world at face value and not to delve too deep into it.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Xenedus

[ProfessorWalsh]

Here's why the tactics aren't realistic:

 

Because realistic tactics done well suck to watch. Plain and simple.

 

If a guy is running at you with a sword it would make sense to sit somewhere where he can't reach you and just shoot him but that's not very dramatic so in order to heighten the drama and visuals they have soldiers charging into battle to fight jedi in close quarters even though that is idiotic. If this universe was realistic in the slightest you would almost never SEE fights between soldiers because there's enough super weapons just sitting around in this galaxy that having an army is really just having a large group of mall guards.

 

If Star Wars was going to pretend to be realistic then they wouldn't use soldiers at all. The universe is FILLED with super powerful droids of doom/doomsday weapons/men capable of consuming a planet's life

 

The notion that they should try to be more strategic is silly because THEY CAN'T. The entire Star Wars universe is based around aesthetics and drama and has LONG since thrown tactics and realism out the window. They can't start using logical tactics now because the Star Wars universe quite frankly can't sustain realism because it is based entirely on fantasy and drama.

 

 

Let me use an example: The Star Wars civilization is advanced enough to achieve interstellar travel with giant ships and with much smaller ships and as such the amount of power just sitting around in one of these ships is far more than any bomb earth has ever seen so if you were going to be realistic these 2 civilizations could just wipe eachother off the map with their little transport ships ALONE given the power that's used just to move those behemoths.

 

Lore Note:

 

They actually don't know how those ships move. Hyperdrive technology was reverse engineered from celestial technology. They don't actually understand how they work, they simply know how to make them and how to repair them.

[Xenedus]

Lore Note:

 

They actually don't know how those ships move. Hyperdrive technology was reverse engineered from celestial technology. They don't actually understand how they work, they simply know how to make them and how to repair them.

 

Even so: you don't have to be smart to make something blow up. You don't even have to know how it works you just have to screw it up.

 

But for the sake of argument let's assume that the hyper drives are completely harmless. That still doesn't solve the problem that their ships have power sources that are far beyond anything an atomic bomb could hope to be. And even if we assume they can't blow up their ships that still doesn't solve the problem that they have already established that there are a million other doomsday weapons and scientific breakthroughs that would DRASTICALLY change combat.

 

Here's a list I came across off the top of my head:

The infinity engine Revan left behind in his Nar Shadaa Vault.

The Foundry.

Self Repairing Cybernetics in Dromund Kaas.

Weaponized Rakghoul Virus.

The Silencer.

The Gauntlet.

Hammer Station.

Superpowerful battle droids.

Super Effective Cloaking technology

Killer organic/electronic orbital strike weapons.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Xenedus

[Arabelle]

They actually don't know how those ships move. Hyperdrive technology was reverse engineered from celestial technology. They don't actually understand how they work, they simply know how to make them and how to repair them.

 

You don't really need advanced technology to wipe out planetary civilizations. Kinetic strikes with objects the size you can move between planets in the Star Wars universe (such as capital ships) would devastate worlds.

[twinionx]

In the movie "We were soldiers", the NVA commander ordered his soldiers to close in with the enemies because if they mixed together, the superior artillery and air force of the Americans will be neutralised.

 

In RoTJ, Lando Calrissian adviced Admiral Ackbar to go into "melee" range with the imperial star destroyers because the deathstar is operational. And they will last longer against the star destroyers than against the deathstar if they duke it out at distant.

 

I would think in the Hope cinematics, it would be similar. The reason why the republic commandos goes into melee range because :

 

1.) Neutralise the superior air power and space power (think orbital bombardment) of the Imperials.

2.) Range is probably not an advantage with tens if not hundreds of Sith able to deflect blaster bolts back to the troopers

3.) The troopers probably run out of energy cells for ammo, they probably fired their last few rounds of ammo to start the ambush and create confusion.

 

Of course we can attribute it all the Hollywood Tactics but at first, sometimes its good to find in game explanation.

 

Even in today's age of nuclear weapons and high speed bullets, we are still taught how to do bayonet fighting.

 

To paraphrase Sergeant Zim : if you disable the enemy's hand with a knife, he cannot push the button (to launch nuclear strike)

[twinionx]

You're 35 years too late.

 

Lucas created the universe complete with Hollywood Tactics. The game is just trying to retain the flavor of the source material.

 

Gym "Yes, I linked to TV Tropes...How many Dark Side Points is that worth?" Quirk

 

I counter your Hollywood Tactics with...

 

Bottomless Magazines

 

They could have ran out of ammo/energy cells.

[Leolab]

The republic cinematic comes to mind, where the troopers fire a volley of shots from ambush and then get into Melee with a significant number of force users that specialise in that.

 

The thing I love about that cinematic is that they pay for it. I think Bioware knows that what makes an exciting battle scene doesn't actually work IRL, since the commandos in question are nearly slaughtered. The only reason that was a "victory" is because the flippin Grandmaster of the Jedi Order bailed them out.

[thewatcheruatu]

I've never been in the military, but the Hope trailer (awesome as it may have been) did sort of bother me in that one particular detail--dramatic effect or not. It just didn't make sense those soldiers leaving their high ground position and charging into melee combat against a bunch of Sith.

 

Apart from that, though, I'm generally blissfully ignorant.

[Isharel]

Was someone stupid enough to suggest troopers use melee weapons and go up against Force users? Do you even know how Jedi and Sith work? They aren't able to deflect bolts fired at them with the speed of light(It is laser after all) because "über hax0r MLG sk1llz", but because of the Force. They can predict where each hit would land. Ofcourse you need some training in how to wield lightsaber, but anyone going up against Force users in melee combat is more or less dead meat waiting to be sliced up.

 

Unless you are trained to kill Sith or Jedi, which still only means you know how to counter their tactics, not how to survive a face-to-face confrontation with them. Someone actually wrote a very good guide here on how to kill Force-users. Go look for it.

[GOYAFIDO]

Yes. The lore has shown again and again that Jedi are great force multipliers, and can significantly protect themselves and others from blaster fire. Sure they would be more effective using their powers with a blaster, but regardless they aren't invincible as shown by the massacre of the Jedi by clone troopers.

 

Small conflicts can be exciting and show a good storytelling element. Not only when the story revolves around it. I mean there are so many ways to show the same stuff you want, and have it be reasonable.

 

You want troopers going Melee? Round a corner and end up too close to the enemy to bring a rifle to bear, an emp or sith fry the soldiers rifles with lightning, etc. not just firing and running into the midst of the enemy like leroy Jenkins in order to get a close personal feel.

 

Problem is, this isn't reality. It's a far, far cry from reality. Frag grenades, claymores and cluster bombs should be a clear counter to melee force users...but they are accounted for in game by shields of various kinds. The shields are so awesome in fact that a trooper pickles off a grenade in a fashion that SHOULD result in the loss of most of his head and that of the sith he embraces...and yet...

 

As far as engagement ranges go, unless one uses wide shots, cuts etc to show the size and distance of opposing forces, things will have to be visually much tighter, say an op that takes place in woodlands which significantly reduces engagement ranges and may affect the types of weapons used because we don't want to knock down trees on our own personnel.

 

Even though the troopers ambush from above, (far more frag type anti-personnel weapons were needed, imo), cutting back and forth from troopers shooting to sith running at them, or leaping up to them will have an old time braveheart kind of vibe to it then it will just be a matter of a minute or so anyway before the blaster blocking sith get in range and we have a melee fight. They could stand there and have much of their fire blocked whilst a unified force walked up the hill or they could ambush the sith and then jump inside the sith formation of mostly melee and try and break up their formation.

 

Unless neutralized, the melee will press to melee range. People HAVE been charging in to melee range for thousands of years of recorded history. Bear in mind that while there have been combatives programs developed outside of the real world spec ops community, the majority of modern forces are trained and focused almost exclusively as riflemen with little or no melee training because they are FAR less likely to need it given the technology we have to day...and the melee forces we DON'T have today.

 

Those troopers, on the other hand, KNOW for a FACT that unless they neutralize the incoming melee before they reach engagement range, there WILL be a hand to hand fight whether the troopers have ammo and frag left or not.

 

That said I agree that I think the fight could have been organized a bit better at the beginning but it was not nearly so egregious as most other game and movie fights on this scale, I have seen.

Edited March 13, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[Alric_Annondu]

As someone who served in the military, it aggravates me when I see cinematics/star wars films that use tactics the world hasn't used since the bow and arrow became obselete. The republic cinematic comes to mind, where the troopers fire a volley of shots from ambush and then get into Melee with a significant number of force users that specialise in that.

 

I mean they don't even need consultants, just common sense. Anyone else bugged by this and/or have specific examples?

 

Refuge in audacity.

[GOYAFIDO]

Refuge in audacity.

 

This.

[GOYAFIDO]

Was someone stupid enough to suggest troopers use melee weapons and go up against Force users? Do you even know how Jedi and Sith work? They aren't able to deflect bolts fired at them with the speed of light(It is laser after all) because "über hax0r MLG sk1llz", but because of the Force. They can predict where each hit would land. Ofcourse you need some training in how to wield lightsaber, but anyone going up against Force users in melee combat is more or less dead meat waiting to be sliced up.

 

Unless you are trained to kill Sith or Jedi, which still only means you know how to counter their tactics, not how to survive a face-to-face confrontation with them. Someone actually wrote a very good guide here on how to kill Force-users. Go look for it.

 

There are melee combatants besides jedi/sith in this universe but knowing jedi/sith and some other melee combatants CAN and WILL effectively close to melee engagement range even in the face of small arms fire should GUARANTEE a much greater focus on melee training and, in the example of the cinematic, the willingness to use it on a tactical basis.

[GOYAFIDO]

The developers have no sense or experience when it comes to the military. That is prevalent throughout the game. They do have a good grasp of "anti-military" in their story lines though. Who would of thought that a computer game company would allow their politics to show through into their game? LOL

 

What happens to Aric Jorgan makes zero sense because he wasn't ever in havoc squads chain of command...he had the PC on loan.

 

It would have made just as much sense to blame it on that private that asks the PC questions, that is to say none..

 

Otherwise, to keep the game visible, all ranges have to be drastically shortened like to paintball ranges. There can't much of a level of AI complexity because too many players will get frustrated and die.

 

Any game is capable of delivering far more than it does in many areas but it doesn't because it has to deal with low end computers and okay, but not great, players.

[Raeln]

... Maybe it's a very accurate representation of a really stupid army?

 

The Marx brothers' observations about military intelligence spring to mind. Who's to say that the strategic decision making body of the Army of the Republic actually *does* have two brain cells to rub together?

 

The Republic is a loose assembly of different planetary nations- most, presumably, with their own independent armies which, in the face of finding the Sith Empire breathing down their necks, is having to fight together. Command is probably a heterogenous mess of different 'experts', all with different cultural and traditional tactical approaches, which don't mesh very well.

 

Compare and contrast with, say, the England football team for a similar display of eleven individuals completely failing to be a team, for much the same reasons.

 

Then, to quote the good Doctor, "Among the varied wonders of the universe, there's nothing so firmly clamped shut as the military mind." Alderaanian Officers probably have one set of tactics that they're absolutely convinced is best, Balmorrans another... and so on.

 

Then, finally, remember they're fighting Sith. i.e. people with at least a passing talent for mind control.

 

You have a melee weapon. A squaddie with a gun appears on the hill top. You can swish around deflecting his cannon blasts for a good long time, but the closer you run to him, the harder that gets. So... you pour into his mind with force persuade "You hate me, you want to see me die, you want to get right up close to me and look into my eyes as you kill me, that's it, charge, charge, give in to your instincts, make me fear you, charge, take my ground, drive me back... hello there, this is my glowstick, and that was your face." Maybe the soldiers jumped on the Sith... because that's what the Sith wanted them to do?

 

I prefer to think the troopers gave up the high ground in "Hope" because they knew they were facing war droids with missile launchers and had to get into melee to eliminate the missile threat. I cannot imagine war droid programming firing missiles into a melee to kill their own faction.

 

I will agree with a previous poster who said if you want "realism", then friendly fire and being able to walk through other players has got to go. I know in my raid last week, I fired countless Full Autos and Grav rounds right through my raid tank into the boss. Yep, that's "real".

 

On top of that, if we are trying to apply "realism", how about we talk about the viability of a lightsaber in the first place. I cannot fathom the level of heat that such a beam would radiate if it were possible to conjure it up in the first place. At minimum, just holding the lightsaber would require heavily shielded and cooled armor, both of which do not exist and our lovely Jedi/Sith characters typically wear.... robes.

[Antipathize]

The tactic trained by the republic military and used in the cinematic you talk about is in use because of the earlier prevalence of personal shield generators, they protect against blaster fire but not melee attacks, leading to tactics that favor blasters for suppression while closing to melee.

 

Using this tactic against force users however is still idiotic, and the CO for that operation should be shot.

 

This makes sense and would make pretty much everything I disagree with invalid. A 2 second explanation on why blasters are wholly ineffective in this time period. Thank you.

 

Also other posters mentioned, to neutralize orbital strikes, shortage on ammo, etc. All this stuff is reasonable and can be explained away in 2-3 seconds of footage. However they are mixing the realistic and fake to the point where I lose my "refuge in audacity" personally.

 

 

To those saying it's sci-fi and they have their own tactics in this universe, I would like to point out the Clone War book series by Karen Traviss and the character Thrawn. Thrawn proves that not everyone has to be completely stupid just because some people like the pretty flashing saber fights.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Moitteva
removed IC/"retard"

[Raeln]

This makes sense and would make pretty much everything I disagree with invalid. A 2 second explanation on why blasters are wholly ineffective in this time period. Thank you.

 

 

To those saying it's sci-fi and they have their own tactics in this universe, I would like to point out the Clone War book series by Karen Traviss and the character Thrawn. Thrawn proves that not everyone has to be completely stupid just because some people like the pretty flashing saber fights.

 

I think it's worth mentioning that the Clone War books do not occur in the Timeline for what? another 3500 years?

 

Think of the tactics that we used 3500 years ago.

 

My trooper has solo'd countless force users - for the most part, I would be more afraid of a missile barrage than a few force users according to combat within the TOR game. It's kind of like the dialog my trooper had with a Sith lord close to the end of the class story. I told him something to the tune of, "you'll die like all the other Sith Lords that tried to stop me."

Edited March 14, 2012 by Moitteva
removed IC in quoted post

[Imaren]

You're 35 years too late.

 

Lucas created the universe complete with Hollywood Tactics. The game is just trying to retain the flavor of the source material.

 

Gym "Yes, I linked to TV Tropes...How many Dark Side Points is that worth?" Quirk

 

I'm giving you the full 10k. I've been stuck on that site reading forever now. Thank you. -.-

[Temeluchus]

I was prior service for 12 years and the cinematic and in game 'military' tactics dont bother me. Because as someone pointed out they are Hollywood military tactics. Imagine a trailer where you see the imperial agent lieing prone and just waiting...and waiting...and waiting...and waiting...and BANG...and back to waiting for another 5 minutes. Hardly seems exciting doesnt it?

 

I mean just look at all the SW movies and you can critique the fights scenes to death. OMG why arent those stormtroopers taking cover! OMG why are those snow speeders attacking the AT-AT's from the front? OMG why doesnt that TIE fighter do a barrel roll?! OMG Ewoks!!! Most movies arent going to use geniune/real world tactics in their action movies. Because lots of times the actions we do in the real world are boring to watch.

 

The only thing i dont like is how your character (or most characters) in the game feel the need to advertise their affiliation out loud.

 

Trooper in Ord Mantell: We're special forces son, we dont talk about our missions

 

Jedi from Smuggler story in Tatooine: I am Jedi Kama Sutra, i do not want to fight...blah blah

 

Imperial Agent: I'm with with imperial intelligence soldier...

 

any Jedi: well i am a Jedi, i guess i should do Jedi things, since that is the Jedi way

 

You're correct,watching a prone IA would be boring.

 

I usually don't let Hollywood military tactics in movies and games bother me though. All though as a USMC who served 12 years I did wonder why enemies are standing around in groups of three or 4,shooting the breeze,with little to no combat situational awareness.

 

The one thing that really does bother me in movies and games is the fact that they have no muzzle awarness, or awarness when it comes to firing positions and the like.

 

I can't recall how many games I've played recently where I was laying down either suppressing fire or controlled,accurate bursts only to have a squadmate or companion cross directly in front of my vector or barrel and then whine about it when they took a round in the back. I mean we learn that on what, day 1 of Basic Training?

 

Just once I'd like to see plausible tactics used in a game though, set up a friggin kill box, use choke points,fire and movement, force concentration or dispersal, heck take the high ground and patrol it, etc.

 

The thing that does make me laugh is the Hollywood treatment of SpecOps, who according to Tinseltown must all be 6'5" and 250 pounds of shredded,vein bulging muscle. In reality most SpecOps guys while in prime physical condition are built for agility and stamina not sheer brute strength and thus are slighter and lithe.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Temeluchus

[Khayleth]

What is it with people and realism in video games nowadays? It's what ruined our FPS's (went from a lone soldier carrying all sorts of ordinance on his person to cover based shooting in squads) and it's not something I want in my video games. Screw realism, I play my games to escape reality.

[Temeluchus]

What is it with people and realism in video games nowadays? It's what ruined our FPS's (went from a lone soldier carrying all sorts of ordinance on his person to cover based shooting in squads) and it's not something I want in my video games. Screw realism, I play my games to escape reality.

 

If you consider the new wave of FPSs as "realistic" you have no idea what real combat,tactics or weapons are like.

 

Shooting from the hip with a SAW? Sure why not,that will be accurate. While trying to maintain stealth,slit a guys throat? Sure why not, the pints and pints of blood pumping out of him won't give away your presence. Crossing in front of your buddy's barrel while he is firing? Sure why not, friendly fire won't happen.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Temeluchus

[Morticoccus]

You don't really need advanced technology to wipe out planetary civilizations. Kinetic strikes with objects the size you can move between planets in the Star Wars universe (such as capital ships) would devastate worlds.

 

They could literally just strap engines to a rock and do a colony drop on Dromund Kaas if they really had any imagination...