Clearing up the facts about Pyrotech.

[exphryl]

The guy is a forum in-joke, people even have sigs about him. He's a classic 'everything but my class is OP'. Better not to dignify him with responses.

 

I'm wondering if he even has a character or just a plant from bioware to keep the forums going!

[LittleFuzzy]

Pretty much this. I have a PT Pyrotech alt and it's pretty stupid. PvP is about consistency and control. Not about EPIC AR ENN GEEE YO.

 

People complaining about PT Pyros are likely still trying to figure out if they need aim or willpower. They're a glass cannon plus massive RNG. What is so difficult about that?

 

You say PvP is about consistency and control but you apparently think PT pyros shouldn't get any of that? No, I don't think so. The fact is that burst can be incredibly important in PvP. I'll accept the argument that it's just RNG, or that getting it leaves you incredibly vulnerable to the next person the Pyro engages but that doesn't change things. They still spike too high. I'm not averse to them getting some consistency in return for losing that monster burst, but the burst does still need to be toned down.

[Obie_Wan]

Yeah lol. What "enemy team" healing is he talking about? I guess Pyrotechs are so powerful they can hurt their allies too I guess?

 

The guy likes to mindlessly use justifications he sees other gives for other classes as answers to the PT and VG issues even if it doesn't even make any sense. You guys show a screenshot full of an over-the-top results and he comes with the canned excuse of uber enemy heals padding his damage even though the evidence is contrary to that.

 

You're poking holes into his attempts to misinforming the community and now you're getting assaulted with mindless trolling. You guys are doing something right when people like these are falling back to such sub level forms of retort.

 

Funny. I remember the Operative/Scoundrel community acting exactly like this before as well.

[anticept]

You say PvP is about consistency and control but you apparently think PT pyros shouldn't get any of that? No, I don't think so. The fact is that burst can be incredibly important in PvP. I'll accept the argument that it's just RNG, or that getting it leaves you incredibly vulnerable to the next person the Pyro engages but that doesn't change things. They still spike too high. I'm not averse to them getting some consistency in return for losing that monster burst, but the burst does still need to be toned down.

 

And it´s still easy to counter stay further than 10meters away and they have no burst just rapid shots if you´re a melee just stay clear you´re not meant to kill every class easily.

[AMKSED]

No point in arguing. Bioware already stated that they're getting nerfed so obviously there's a problem.

[Obie_Wan]

learn more about the class's before even comenting.

 

 

and im not exaggerating either.

 

 

im glad not many people know about it right now and im not going to state what it is either. there is a spec for powertech's/commando's that makes

 

rail shots hit for 5k to 9k

fire dots that tick from 500 to 1.5k

rocket punch's that hit for around 2k to 5k

 

these are rough averages depending on the BH's spec and gear

 

 

they do more dps than a sorce/sage

 

 

Buddy. I know, like the rest of us, that you feel something is wrong with Powertech/Vanguard DPS, but you're not doing us any favours with these grossly exaggerated numbers.

 

I haven't ever seen screenshots of railshot hitting for 6k, let alone 9k. I've been hit plenty with 5k railshots by a really geared Powertech on my server and I have screenshots of myself being hit by a 5.7k hit + DoTs and tech attacks.

 

That's already bad enough, but at least that is real.

 

Most of the people defending what's going on with Powertech/Vanguard DPS right now are using trolled up exaggerated numbers of other classes' burst and it's not doing them any favours because those of us who PVP extensively knows what reasonable numbers are.

 

You doing the exact same thing by throwing out random inflated numbers does nothing to help prove our point of view. It only makes you lose credibility and undermines all of us who share similar view points on this issue.

 

Discuss reasonably and try to be as accurate as possible. Stray from that and you end up looking devoid of credibility like the OP has with his recent posts in this thread.

[Srolo]

If you get rid of the burst damage in the pyrotech tree you know whats left? A tank spec for all powertechs. Nobody can seriously play AP because the damage is so subpar and now people want to reduce pyro's damage as well because they're effective. The only thing that leaves us is a tank tree. People keep forgetting that the only reason we hit as hard as we do is because we have to spec for the 90% armor pen. You nerf pyro and there goes another tree from the merc line. You'll be funneling people into TM spam or healing.

 

If you funnel more people into TM spam and healing guess what? More QQ's on the forums about Mercs being OP, TM needs to be nerfed and healers need to be nerfed. It's a never ending cycle.

[Obie_Wan]

You say PvP is about consistency and control but you apparently think PT pyros shouldn't get any of that? No, I don't think so. The fact is that burst can be incredibly important in PvP. I'll accept the argument that it's just RNG, or that getting it leaves you incredibly vulnerable to the next person the Pyro engages but that doesn't change things. They still spike too high. I'm not averse to them getting some consistency in return for losing that monster burst, but the burst does still need to be toned down.

 

I'm totally in agreement with this. One monster burst is something many classes can react and handle. A string of instant crazy bursts that has a chance of proccing even more crazy bursts back to back is just wrong. Especially with this level of survivability and ability to keep players from running away.

[Obie_Wan]

And it´s still easy to counter stay further than 10meters away and they have no burst just rapid shots if you´re a melee just stay clear you´re not meant to kill every class easily.

 

You act as if the Powertechs and Vanguards don't have the ability to damage as well as putting a DoT on you while snaring you. That or a 45 second CD grapple and a stun if you manage to screw up and let the victim run away.

[Srolo]

I'm totally in agreement with this. One monster burst is something many classes can react and handle. A string of instant crazy bursts that has a chance of proccing even more crazy bursts back to back is just wrong. Especially with this level of survivability and ability to keep players from running away.

 

LOL. 25% damage reduction shield that every class gets is so OP.....Our monster burst is around ~6.5k if BOTH TD and Railshot crit and go off at the same time. I have never seen a string of those either, especially with the CD on Thermal Detonator. If railshot procs after a flame burst or rocket punch and it CRITS you're looking at another 3k.

[Srolo]

You act as if the Powertechs and Vanguards don't have the ability to damage as well as putting a DoT on you while snaring you. That or a 45 second CD grapple and a stun if you manage to screw up and let the victim run away.

 

If a Pyro specced Powertech blows all his cooldowns on you while you're preoccupied with another or running away you're damn right you should die. It's no different than any other dps class.

[Obie_Wan]

If you get rid of the burst damage in the pyrotech tree you know whats left? A tank spec for all powertechs. Nobody can seriously play AP because the damage is so subpar and now people want to reduce pyro's damage as well because they're effective. The only thing that leaves us is a tank tree. People keep forgetting that the only reason we hit as hard as we do is because we have to spec for the 90% armor pen. You nerf pyro and there goes another tree from the merc line. You'll be funneling people into TM spam or healing.

 

If you funnel more people into TM spam and healing guess what? More QQ's on the forums about Mercs being OP, TM needs to be nerfed and healers need to be nerfed. It's a never ending cycle.

 

I don't think a Pyro's painful damage begins and ends with their 90% armour penetration railshot. The DoTs hurts and the instant spammable tech damage attacks also hurts and none of them is affected by defense stats. Hell even the railshot renders armour uselesss and we all know that 4-5k crits is just icing on the cake.

 

You guys downplay the worth of your 2 minute shield that can be talented to be reduced 1.5 secs every 1.5 seconds of being hit. That's pretty damn good for a DPS class rocking in heavy armour.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for your latest post about never seeing a railshot + thermal detonator crit together for 6k total.

 

I'll leave this screenshot here AGAIN. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/screenshot2012030620385.jpg/

 

Do not blame the rest of the community with your, "LULZ", because you didn't gear yourself and used the rights mods to achieve optimal results.

 

If you can't even achieve that result then I have nothing to say to you because you clearly are not at the level of these Powertech/Vanguard players who ARE delivering the damage with horrific results to the victims. Therefore you can't possibly be someone worth discussing this issue about because you haven't even reached the stage where your input matters. Further discussion is only going to lead to pointless argument, as I can already see coming from your "Hey you must be doing the absolutely wrong thing by being distracted from the Powertech" that you randomly pulled out of nowhere after quoting me.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Obie_Wan

[anticept]

You act as if the Powertechs and Vanguards don't have the ability to damage as well as putting a DoT on you while snaring you. That or a 45 second CD grapple and a stun if you manage to screw up and let the victim run away.

 

Yes and every other class have CD´s too the dot/snare can only be applied within 10meters so keep your range and if you get grappled pushback or stun then instead and move away again not really too hard of a tactic.

[LittleFuzzy]

This post is obviously false. Commando/Merc healers are the hardest class in the game to kill right now and as a Assualt Vanguard it takes me all my ammo + a reload + 2 stuns to kill you and that's only if EVERYTHING crits. If my Assualt Plastique or HIB fail to crit I basically have 0 ammo and any decent Commando/Merc healer is back up to 80% health.

 

I agree with OP that we can be bursty, but like every experienced Pyro PT or Assualt Vanguard posting here knows, unless you're REALLY lucky you cannot 5 or 6-shot someone. Unless you're a Sorc or Sniper, it still takes me a while to kill you if Ionic Accelerator does not proc and Plastique doesn't crit. It also takes nearly all our ammo to actually burn down someone, so unlike Sorcs/Sages, we do not have an infinite amount of resources.

 

I think there's some truth in his post. I'm a commando healer myself and I'll agree with you that we can be incredibly tough. Our survivability needs to be nerfed, it really does. I don't have any BM gear yet, just full champion, and in warzones right now there are three good ways to take me out. Two dpsers who are good at interrupting can patiently work at it until they gain an advantage, a group of three or more can CC me and burst me down before I realize I need to get my defenses in place, OR one of the champion or BM pyro PTs on my server can decide I need to die. If one of them decides I need to die I can string things out to maybe 14 seconds if I see them coming, beyond that the only chance I have of surviving is if another player dedicates them with equal zeal to peeling the Pyro off me.

[Malvantyr]

I use near full bm Eliminators that is fully remodded, and I need to use all adrenals and buffs to break that 5k mark. The only way i can go into mid 5's is with Inspiration from sentinels.

 

We are squishy.

 

All classes can prevent someone from getting away.

 

We have no escape skills. (Degauss sucks.)

 

People seem to forget this game is mostly about gear.

[Obie_Wan]

Yes and every other class have CD´s too the dot/snare can only be applied within 10meters so keep your range and if you get grappled pushback or stun then instead and move away again not really too hard of a tactic.

 

Except this snare also hurts you for respectable amounts while putting a DoT on you while opening up the opportunity to refresh Railshot/HIB. You are also forgetting that with the burst that Powerguard/Vanguard can do within such a short amount of time and have enough resources to do so until a target is dead.

 

It's pointless to single out one specific part of what the Powertech/Vanguard can do and say, "Ah hah! Here is the problem!" You know as well as we do that it's multiple very generous abilities that you're able to do that snowballs into a problem.

[exphryl]

It's pointless to single out one specific part of what the Powertech/Vanguard can do and say, "Ah hah! Here is the problem!" You know as well as we do that it's multiple very generous abilities that you're able to do that snowballs into a problem.

 

You are kind of doing the same thing. You are focusing on the burst and our "amazing" snare.

 

Maras actually can do similar burst while perma snaring you and keepign you in range

Good Sorcs can actually do similar burst while perma snaring you.

Ops can actually do similar burst while you are stunned

Assassins can do very quick burst while being resilient as all hell.

 

Long story short. Classes do damage.

[darkrom]

Anyone with equal gear and skill can make a pyrotech's life miserable; especially anyone with a heal. BM vs BM, pyro's damage is just as good as any other class but is short lived due to heat issues. Its actually quite balanced when compared to many others at the same gear level.

[Obie_Wan]

No point in arguing. Bioware already stated that they're getting nerfed so obviously there's a problem.

 

The thing here is though what exactly are they nerfing?

 

Tracer Missile spam has never been an issue for me, the people I PVP with and against. Is it a poorly designed ability with a poorly conceived talent tree designed around it? Yes, most definitely.

 

However does it demolish competent players? No. There's plenty of ways to shut them down. They have the same shield Powertech/Vanguard has but their fundamental weakness remains that they need to channel things. That gives players the window of opportunity to shut them down every so often so they have a fair chance at winning. Yes, even if we have to wait 12 seconds of 25% damage reduction, knockbacks, and stuns. The burst is manageable enough that if you're aware you can bring them down 1 on 1, if you mess up you don't.

 

Powertech/Vanguard mainstay DPS attacks are all instants. Tech based, DoTs, and has 90% armour penetration. They are spammable, while not nearly as spammable as Tracer Missile, the amount of damage combined is more than enough to take down players.

 

You can't shut down their instant damage. Their setup is instant too, there's no window of opportunity to stop it. Cleansing the DoT just gets it put back on faster than it can be cleansed, and cleansing does no damage while the act of putting the DoTs back on does.

 

The same goes for people saying how other classes has snares too. How many of the other classes' snare also does respectable direct damage and also applies a DoT? You're still winning the war of attrition.

[exphryl]

Question Obie, what class are you playing that you are struggling with Pyros so much? Perhaps we could offer advice.

[Obie_Wan]

You are kind of doing the same thing. You are focusing on the burst and our "amazing" snare.

 

Maras actually can do similar burst while perma snaring you and keepign you in range

Good Sorcs can actually do similar burst while perma snaring you.

Ops can actually do similar burst while you are stunned

Assassins can do very quick burst while being resilient as all hell.

 

Long story short. Classes do damage.

 

How am I doing the same when it was the result of me addressing the comment anticept made on that very specific issue?

 

In my previous posts I've constantly voiced that people are tunnel visioning on Powertech/Vanguard's Railshot/HIB damage, which I said I felt was not the entire issue alone. It's always been the plethora of instant tech damage with DoTs rolling all snowballing together that helps the Railshot seal the deal.

 

Too much damage from these smaller attacks. People only focus on Powertech/Vanguard single highest crittable attacks and approach it thinking the class works the same way a Smash bombed specced Juggernaut is.

 

That's why I said it's the sum of the parts that the Vanguard/Powertech can do that brings out crazy damage that's unreasonable to handle.

[Obie_Wan]

Question Obie, what class are you playing that you are struggling with Pyros so much? Perhaps we could offer advice.

 

Focus specced Guardian and Seer Sage.

 

If you feel you can offer advice, I humbly accept it and see if there's something overlooked but this is best taken through PM to not clutter up the thread.

[anticept]

Except this snare also hurts you for respectable amounts while putting a DoT on you while opening up the opportunity to refresh Railshot/HIB. You are also forgetting that with the burst that Powerguard/Vanguard can do within such a short amount of time and have enough resources to do so until a target is dead.

 

It's pointless to single out one specific part of what the Powertech/Vanguard can do and say, "Ah hah! Here is the problem!" You know as well as we do that it's multiple very generous abilities that you're able to do that snowballs into a problem.

 

Yes i agree that the burst of PT is nasty when they get procs but then again it´s quite easy to shutdown with keeping your range and cleasing the debuff no burning effect = no rail shot (not all classes can do this ofc) and since there are no dmg meters yet you can´t see how the PT pyro stands against Merc pyro but i haven´t met a PT that has done more dmg than me on a same WZ (not saying that they don´t exist). But if they go ahead and nerf the pyro PT it leaves no viable dps spec for PTs since AP is a bad joke.

 

One thing that might not make the class totally useless is to add a small cd on flameburst (3-5sec) that would force them to use rapid shots more and not just spam flameburst mindlessly.

 

But usually it is the simplest thing that counters some ones abilities with melee you kite them , against Tracer spammers you LoS them and pop out to dps , snipers same thing sorcs well it´s basicly a dps race and hoping they dont get second bubble. Pyromercs pov since i don´t have an interrupt.

[LittleFuzzy]

You are kind of doing the same thing. You are focusing on the burst and our "amazing" snare.

 

Maras actually can do similar burst while perma snaring you and keepign you in range

Good Sorcs can actually do similar burst while perma snaring you.

Ops can actually do similar burst while you are stunned

Assassins can do very quick burst while being resilient as all hell.

 

Long story short. Classes do damage.

 

I don't know what to say except that I can and do survival ALL of those encounters. Not every time of course, it'll depend on my cooldowns and their own skill at their class *except for the assassins, they just can't seem to pull it off* but I do survive. Not so with the the Pyro PT, they just melt me. The Ops used to take me with the same reliability if they could open on me from stealth but that encounter has become much less one-sided. I freely admit I'm too tough right now myself and BH/Trooper healers should see a survivability nerf themselves, but the PT/Vanguard burst potential is still too high.

[Malvantyr]

I don't know what to say except that I can and do survival ALL of those encounters. Not every time of course, it'll depend on my cooldowns and their own skill at their class *except for the assassins, they just can't seem to pull it off* but I do survive. Not so with the the Pyro PT, they just melt me. The Ops used to take me with the same reliability if they could open on me from stealth but that encounter has become much less one-sided. I freely admit I'm too tough right now myself and BH/Trooper healers should see a survivability nerf themselves, but the PT/Vanguard burst potential is still too high.

 

And yet, a watchman sentinel will still win against a Pyro.

 

Or are we talking group play? Where guarding/taunting comes into play. Or multiple healers, one healing, one cleansing.

 

When ignored, Pyro destroys. When targeted, we spend the whole time dead.