ErikModi Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Balance in the Force does not equal balance in numbers of Sith and Jedi. The Force is far larger than those who use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiJonPed Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 a pair of universe-equivalent neckbeards in a basement launching ddos attacks on Jedi sensitivity. rofl! That said, if Life represented the Light Side, and death the Dark Side. Life and Death are still part of a balance though. If you look at a natural habitat, it is held in balance through the predator/prey relationship. Although yes, I do believe GL is a tool. *cough* Han shot first *cough*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) Probably a little late to this, but what the OP doesn't realize is "balance" actually means "complete and utter destruction of the Dark Side". rofl! That said, if Life represented the Light Side, and death the Dark Side. Life and Death are still part of a balance though. If you look at a natural habitat, it is held in balance through the predator/prey relationship. Although yes, I do believe GL is a tool. *cough* Han shot first *cough*. I guess you don't get the meaning behind "there is no death, there is the Force". The Dark Side is, Canonically, a cancer in the Force. Its completely unnatural and the only way to restore balance is to destroy all of the Dark Side users. Hence, Palpatine dies and Vader is redeemed. Edited March 12, 2012 by Aximand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelticMutt Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Probably a little late to this, but what the OP doesn't realize is "balance" actually means "complete and utter destruction of the Dark Side". I guess you don't get the meaning behind "there is no death, there is the Force". The Dark Side is, Canonically, a cancer in the Force. Its completely unnatural and the only way to restore balance is to destroy all of the Dark Side users. Hence, Palpatine dies and Vader is redeemed. No, it is not. Despite what Lucas wants us to think about his idea of balance, it is never seen anywhere in the movies. And by his own rules, the movies trump even his word. Not to mention that as I stated earlier, it is blatant that all the writers of the EU disagree with him and consistently show that balance does not mean the Dark Side is wiped out. Canonically (for the EU for those who refuse to acknowledge it as canon), the Dark Side has existed just as long as the Light. That would not be true if it were a cancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillack Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 One of the things about the prequels that always bothered me is the length. Why didn’t the prequels end after Qui Gon asked the Jedi Council to train Anakin? [snip] You obviously don't know a thing about movies and money making.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 No, it is not. Despite what Lucas wants us to think about his idea of balance, it is never seen anywhere in the movies. And by his own rules, the movies trump even his word. Not to mention that as I stated earlier, it is blatant that all the writers of the EU disagree with him and consistently show that balance does not mean the Dark Side is wiped out. Canonically (for the EU for those who refuse to acknowledge it as canon), the Dark Side has existed just as long as the Light. That would not be true if it were a cancer. What Lucas says > What you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelticMutt Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 What Lucas says > What you think. Except when every single writer for the EU agrees with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) Except when every single writer for the EU agrees with me. You obviously don't understand how Canon works. What the EU writers think doesn't matter. At all. If Lucas says that the Darkside is a cancer in the Force, then the Darkside is a cancer in the Force, and all other sources (or parts of sources) that state otherwise are N-Canon. The Unifying Force theory that Verger liked to talk about? Completely N-Canon. Revan channeling both Light side and Dark side at once? Completely N-Canon. There is no middle ground when it comes to this, you can disagree with Lucas all you want, but his opinion is the only one that matters in any way, shape or form. Edited March 13, 2012 by Aximand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravshar Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 The only thing wrong with using balance in a prophecy about the force is that almost no one in the real world understood what it meant. The jedi see the force as a living being with a mind and will of its own. Hence all their references to the Living Force. They see the dark side as a disease afflicting the Living Force. So naturaly they see it so that balance could only exist when the Living Force is disease free. No Dark Side at all. Just as a person's body can't be in balance if they are afflicted with a disease (such as the common cancer reference). Most see the word balance and think equal numbers, but that isn't what the balance of that prophecy was meant to be. Would also note, that it doesn't matter what balance means to the galaxy as a whole. As this was a jedi prophecy, it would have been written by their views. If they thought anakin was supose to bring about an equal number sith to jedi, they would probably have refered to him as a harbinger of darkness instead of the chosen one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravshar Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 There is no middle ground when it comes to this, you can disagree with Lucas all you want, but his opinion is the only one that matters in any way, shape or form. Not realy. While I'm sure he has to put his stamp of approval on everything, this game takes place in the expanded universe, not just stuff from the movies. The rules of how things work may or may not follow to the letter what lucas has said in the past. That said, I see no reason to go against what he has said... until such time as something related to the game declares otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaturkey Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) GL has flat out stated that he doesn't pay that much attention to the goings-on in the EU. According to him he just doesn't have the time, which may or may not be true. So to say everything that has ever happened has been explicitly approved by GL is false. That said, the dark side IS a cancer of the force according to GL, period. Now, we can justifiably argue for or against this stance that the dark side is an imbalance with many valid points. However, at the end of the day, whether or agree with this his view or not, his opinion trumps everyone else's (for the sake of offical canon). Personally Im on the fence about the dark side being an imbalance, but again its not my IP and I have no say in the matter at the end of the day. Luckily we have the EU which allows for a more broadly excepted view of "balance". Ultimately, its philosophy which is highly interpretational to any individual, so enjoy your opinion cause no one can tell you that your personal philosophy is wrong, nor can they prove otherwise. But don't sit there and claim your view as fact either. Edited March 13, 2012 by Seaturkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unutterable Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 One thing to bear in mind about the canon/noncanon discussion is that for the first trilogy, GL had hordes of people constantly saying, "No George, you're an idiot, that is a stupid idea." The prequel trilogy is an example of a bad writer with unlimited funds and no one willing to gainsay his bad ideas. The EU exists in large part because the universe had so much potential that this one aspie manchild was wasting. No one would accept the Godfather movies being rereleased with dance numbers or LotR with orcs replaced with oompa-loompas, and even if someone wanted to do something like that, there are enough people to shoot those ideas down to prevent such travesties, something the SW IP did not have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonimator Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 George IS aware of what's going on in The Clone Wars, though... and there, the dark side isn't exactly a cancer, as shown in the Mortis arc as I recall. The Father, Son, and Daughter were to exist in balance, light AND dark. The imbalance in that story (highlighting the imbalance in the Force in general) is that the Son was getting stronger and darker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 George IS aware of what's going on in The Clone Wars, though... and there, the dark side isn't exactly a cancer, as shown in the Mortis arc as I recall. The Father, Son, and Daughter were to exist in balance, light AND dark. The imbalance in that story (highlighting the imbalance in the Force in general) is that the Son was getting stronger and darker. That's where Canon gets tricky as hell. Since the Dark Side being a cancer in the Force is G-Canon, that little tidbit of TCW series is N-Canon since it doesn't conform to G-Canon, while the rest of it (that does conform to G-Canon) is T-Canon. Yea, it makes your brain hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticoccus Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 You obviously don't understand how Canon works. What the EU writers think doesn't matter. At all. If Lucas says that the Darkside is a cancer in the Force, then the Darkside is a cancer in the Force, and all other sources (or parts of sources) that state otherwise are N-Canon. The Unifying Force theory that Verger liked to talk about? Completely N-Canon. Revan channeling both Light side and Dark side at once? Completely N-Canon. There is no middle ground when it comes to this, you can disagree with Lucas all you want, but his opinion is the only one that matters in any way, shape or form. And yet what Vergere thinks makes more sense, especially in the light of the rest of the EU. Also, why do we even care about what Lucas thinks? He made three good movies, then he ruined parts of them and ensured that the old versions are impossible to get, then he made three more movies, that were in some ways even worse. This is the man that made Howard the Duck for crying out loud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 And yet what Vergere thinks makes more sense, especially in the light of the rest of the EU. Also, why do we even care about what Lucas thinks? He made three good movies, then he ruined parts of them and ensured that the old versions are impossible to get, then he made three more movies, that were in some ways even worse. This is the man that made Howard the Duck for crying out loud! Its not that I care what he thinks, its just that's how Canon works. I may not like some of the decisions that Lucas has made over the years, but G-Canon is the highest form of Canon whether I like it or not, and anything that directly contradicts G-Canon (Such as the Unifying Force) automatically becomes N-Canon. Whether you like something or not, or whether it makes more sense one way as opposed to another almost never matters at all in a debate about Star Wars lore. If G-Canon says that's how it is, then that's how it is. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonimator Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 That's where Canon gets tricky as hell. Since the Dark Side being a cancer in the Force is G-Canon, that little tidbit of TCW series is N-Canon since it doesn't conform to G-Canon, while the rest of it (that does conform to G-Canon) is T-Canon. Yea, it makes your brain hurt. Unless his comment about the dark side being a cancer was recent, Mortis probably trumps G-canon because it'd mean he changed his mind. He does that a lot, you know. "Oh, Vader didn't kill Luke's father, he IS Luke's father. And Leia's his sister. And Greedo shot first. And Luke screamed when he let go of the pole in Cloud City. No, wait, he didn't. And Yoda wasn't Obi-Wan's ACTUAL master. And Leia never really knew her mom even a bit since she died moments after giving birth. And that puppet Yoda we made for Episode I SUUUUUUUUUUCKED" etc. Or it could just mean he forgot about Mortis. He forgets a lot, too (again, see "Greedo shot first" and his wild justifications for it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Unless his comment about the dark side being a cancer was recent, Mortis probably trumps G-canon because it'd mean he changed his mind. He does that a lot, you know. "Oh, Vader didn't kill Luke's father, he IS Luke's father. And Leia's his sister. And Greedo shot first. And Luke screamed when he let go of the pole in Cloud City. No, wait, he didn't. And Yoda wasn't Obi-Wan's ACTUAL master. And Leia never really knew her mom even a bit since she died moments after giving birth. And that puppet Yoda we made for Episode I SUUUUUUUUUUCKED" etc. Or it could just mean he forgot about Mortis. He forgets a lot, too (again, see "Greedo shot first" and his wild justifications for it) No. That's not how it works. Nothing trumps G-Canon except G-Canon retcons. Nothing. If something is T-Canon or lower, and it does not specifically conform to G-Canon, it automatically becomes N-Canon unless Lucas explicitly says otherwise. Your problem is that you keep trying to make an exception. The Canon system that Star Wars uses doesn't allow exceptions, that's why unlike Star Trek they don't have to do a ton of "alternate universes with magical wormholes" and all that crap. Its an extremely rigid system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelticMutt Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) 1) By George's own rules, the most recent anything he's involved with trumps the not so most recent thing he's involved with. 2) By George's own rules, if it's not in the movies or the tv series, it's not in his canon. Guess what was never in the movies or tv series, in any edition? The idea that the Dark Side is a cancer. George claimed it once, a long while back. But he never, ever, not even once, actually worked it into any of his media. By his own rules, his own works trump his own words. Edited March 14, 2012 by CelticMutt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 1) By George's own rules, the most recent anything he's involved with trumps the not so most recent thing he's involved with. 2) By George's own rules, if it's not in the movies or the tv series, it's not in his canon. Guess what was never in the movies or tv series, in any edition? The idea that the Dark Side is a cancer. George claimed it once, a long while back. But he never, ever, not even once, actually worked it into any of his media. By his own rules, his own works trump his own words. If that were how it worked then Obi-Wan Kenobi's home world wouldn't have been changed to Stewjohn (Stewjon?) on an offhand comment on the Daily Show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonimator Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 If that were how it worked then Obi-Wan Kenobi's home world wouldn't have been changed to Stewjohn (Stewjon?) on an offhand comment on the Daily Show. ...or Admiral Motti's first name wouldn't be 'Conan'. But see, even with Lucas' verbal edicts being written as law, there's conflict: he wore a "Han Shot First" shirt on the set of Indy IV. That goes against everything he's been saying since '97! ...but really I think it points to his people at the companies, like Rostoni and Leland, going a bit TOO far. "Conan Antonio Motti"? A funny gag, but it sticks out. It'd be like if Owen Lars' middle name was Vinchenzo or something, y'know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelticMutt Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 If that were how it worked then Obi-Wan Kenobi's home world wouldn't have been changed to Stewjohn (Stewjon?) on an offhand comment on the Daily Show. And yet somehow, in all the numerous, numerous times George has altered the movies, or told the tv creative teams what to do, not once has he told them or done anything to make it canon that the Dark Side is a cancer. It should also be noted that it appears all traces of Lucas ever even calling it a cancer have been removed from the wiki. Something tells me Lucas has in fact changed his mind. Again. Must be Tuesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 And yet somehow, in all the numerous, numerous times George has altered the movies, or told the tv creative teams what to do, not once has he told them or done anything to make it canon that the Dark Side is a cancer. It should also be noted that it appears all traces of Lucas ever even calling it a cancer have been removed from the wiki. Something tells me Lucas has in fact changed his mind. Again. Must be Tuesday. Well if he changed his mind then he changed his mind and I've been debating without up to date information. God that guy just needs to be told to take a back seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unutterable Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Well if he changed his mind then he changed his mind and I've been debating without up to date information. God that guy just needs to be told to take a back seat. This is why a lot o folks prefer EU to GU. EU makes more sense, is more consistent, and would never have spawned a Jar Jar. Watch the making-of bits for both trilogies and you'll see such a marked difference in the attitudes of his crew. The original trilogy was much livelier and no one had the look of a deer that just smelled a predator, and the post-production screenings do not look like everyone just watched One Guy One Jar. GL absent a leash is an ambulatory storm of narcissism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikModi Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 This is why a lot o folks prefer EU to GU. EU makes more sense, is more consistent, and would never have spawned a Jar Jar. The Selonians in the Corellian Trilogy were WAY more annoying than Jar-Jar could EVER be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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