CaMiCaZiE Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Well then you have not read or understood many of the 1000+ posts on this topic. please enlighten me to another reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaMiCaZiE Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 If this is the case then real time meters do little but enforce one's opinion that other people suck. Exactly why they are not a need but a want. Enforcement of opinion and want seems invaluable to some in this thread. i agree. i want them. i dont need the. but the only reasons others dont want them, is because it becomes so easy to spot who is slacking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewser Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 please enlighten me to another reason. They are covered in the thread. Read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I understand what you are saying and it's a good point. Now if this was a single player game then I would totally agree with you. However when you have group play for flash points, operations, or pvp, then what you do becomes the group's business because the goal of the group is to complete or win that activity. How you play directly effects the group and your character has a direct impact on the people in the group. The others in the group should have every right to see how your character performs because your performance determines the success or failure of the group. The undertext here seems to be that you want realtime metrics to point numerical deficiencies, which presummably, you could not discern normally before the group fails and decides theire is a problem to be investigated. The likely end profuct being that "players in the know" could advise the "bad" with quick tips or the dumping of "bads" midway through flashpoints and raids. I am all for improving your game with data but, I feel like realtime, public data turns things around and makes the gameplay the slave to the improvement process as opposed to the play experienceing being served by the impovement tool. I don't think it's BioWare's intention to support aborted "test" forays into the content over playing them out to their conclusion and improving based on the after battle debrief. If you are playing a character and not just an avatar, they are their to complete it and try their best, not bail if DPS or some other metric is running a little low. Again, such systems make the DPS play too dominat a role as slips from useful indicator to a primary guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) i agree. i want them. i dont need the. but the only reasons others dont want them, is because it becomes so easy to spot who is slackingIf that were true then I wouldn't want a combat log. But I do. I want to know where I can improve. As far as real want, what I don't want is any real-time metering in the hands of pubescent epeeners because it detracts from a great game and the community that BioWare is trying to build. Edited March 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) But you have heard LOGICAL arguments against combat logs. You've merely chosen to belittle them as personal heresy. I've chosen? Is it my choice that an argument is not grounded in empirical evidence? Is it my choice that the basis of the argument is emotion and irrational fear.? I'd love to hear a reason why combat logs hurt the community, besides "they just will." Edited March 13, 2012 by Stupiddrummer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Well then you have not read or understood many of the 1000+ posts on this topic. i understand why people dont want them. They are afraid of change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenmori Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Stick to the topic... Without a doubt, gief logs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaMiCaZiE Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 They are covered in the thread. Read it. i hope your not reffering to "community" do you realise how subjective that is? and how silly that is? a community in a game is comprised of players. with less challenging content as a direct results of not being able to finely tune difficulty in raid content, there will be less players. ergo, your "community" shrinks, becoming less of a community. so in fact, easier to use min/maxing tools would actually make the game better, and get more to play it. so yeah, your probably saying "no" to public metres for the reason i expected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 i havent heard a LOGICAL argument against combat logs. Anecdotes and theories about social degradation as the result of combat logs aren't doing it for me. Go figure, guy that wants combat logs also requires objective evidence. You can say that the community will deteriorate all you want but there is no evidence for that claim. One wonders why you would find enough to interest you in a game developed by and populated by so man illogical people. Being a man of logic, as you so obviously are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 That said, if we're talking about a raid in which 7-15 other people are depending on said "newb" to pull their weight, and said "newb" is not and causing the group to wipe repeatedly, the group leader is well within their rights to replace that person. They shouldn't be ridiculed, but expecting others to spend time in the middle of a raid teaching them the basics, or carrying them through, is ludicrous. Those "newbs" don't have a right to see the operations, or to get gear from them. If they can find a group willing to train or carry them, more power to them, but those operations do have a minimum expected performance standard, and people that are not meeting that standard don't really belong there regardless of how you paint it. So, you were not very clear. Are you talking about a guild raid, or a PUG raid???? If it is a guild raid, then it's not a very good guild if they do not take into account the fact that they need to rotate in, support, assist, and tolerate a new raid player. That is how guilds build stronger members, and every guild I have been in is very much focuses on this. If it's a PUG raid, well, enough said. Most PUG raids are full of socially terribad people who could care less about anyone but themselves, don't socialize, are intolerant, and just want their lootz asap so they can PUG another round. This is also where most harrassment and abuse takes place using in game damage monitoring tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charliff Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I've chosen? Is it my choice that an argument is not grounded in empirical evidence? Is it my choice that the basis of the argument is emotion and irrational fear.? I'd love to hear a reason why combat logs hurt the community, besides "they just will." The amount of abuse people in this thread get who don't want a real combat log tells it all. You will get your combat log, just not in a way it can be abused in game towards different minded gamers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) One wonders why you would find enough to interest you in a game developed by and populated by so man illogical people. Being a man of logic, as you so obviously are. one wonders why you would choose to use such a goram annoying font color. And because i really like Star Wars. Edited March 13, 2012 by Stupiddrummer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) I've chosen? Is it my choice that an argument is not grounded in empirical evidence? Is it my choice that the basis of the argument is emotion and irrational fear.? I'd love to hear a reason why combat logs hurt the community, besides "they just will."Can one assume that you have read the entire thread? Including the thread that preceeded this one? Logical opposition is everywhere. No one can teach someone to see something they don't want to see. Thus we are at an impasse. Besides, it's all opinion anyway. Edited March 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewser Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) i understand why people dont want them. They are afraid of change. Incorrect. Care to try again? Edited March 13, 2012 by Drewser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaMiCaZiE Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 If that were true then I wouldn't want a combat log. But I do. I want to know where I can improve. As far as real want, what I don't want is any real-time metering in the hands of pubescent epeeners because it detracts from a great game and the community that BioWare is trying to build. pubescent epeeners will exist in every game that has any shred of competitiveness. even easymode mmorpg like this one. i dont see how you go from that to "it detracts from a great game and the communtiy" this is entirely subjective there are things in a certain unspeakable mmorpg that i hated and felt that it did indeed do damage to in game relationships, things like gearscore, and achievments. i would not like to see things like that in this game. but easy to use dps meters are very important for making real challenging content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pekish Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) i understand why people dont want them. They are afraid of change. we all played other MMO we all said in any other MMO there was this is the only one different (change) and we are afraid of change? you prove u understand nothing about logic, the same logic u try to diminish saying you dont care... i guess u don't care because you dont get it Edited March 13, 2012 by Pekish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Can one assume that you have read the entire thread? Including the thread that preceeded this one? Logical opposition is everywhere. No one can teach someone to see something they don't want to see. Thus we are at an impass. Besides, it's all opinion anyway. ive been posting in this thread since the first thread. No logic. The fact that no one offers any logic when i specifically ask for it is very telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 No they understand stand it. They just can't accept it. Not having the ability to immediately judge someone else is why this thread continues. Not cause they can't see what there doing and judge themselves in the current meters were getting. They have to judge others even when it doesn't matter. Nailed it right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) pubescent epeeners will exist in every game that has any shred of competitiveness. even easymode mmorpg like this one. i dont see how you go from that to "it detracts from a great game and the communtiy" this is entirely subjective there are things in a certain unspeakable mmorpg that i hated and felt that it did indeed do damage to in game relationships, things like gearscore, and achievments. i would not like to see things like that in this game. but easy to use dps meters are very important for making real challenging content.That's the point ... this whole thread is all opinion which makes everything in it entirely subjective! Edited March 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 The amount of abuse people in this thread get who don't want a real combat log tells it all. You will get your combat log, just not in a way it can be abused in game towards different minded gamers. why is it abusive to say an irrational argument is irrational? Being in favor of combat logs, it would be hard to argue that i am one to ignore facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 In correct. Care to try again? then why is? because people will be mean to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) i understand why people dont want them. They are afraid of change. Actually, "change" in an MMO context would be what Bioware has chose, NOT having public logs. So by your logic, those who want/insist on public logs are the ones afraid of change. Edited March 13, 2012 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retzilla Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 right now I would like any person in this thread, to quote, or bring up a LOGICAL point against combat logs and why we shouldn't have them. cold hard facts need to be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stupiddrummer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Actually, "change" in an MMO context would be what Bioware has chose, NOT having public logs. So by your logic, those who want/insist on public logs are the ones afraid of change. no change would be adding them, and the fear that may or may not cause. that's my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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