One player's opinion on ...

[MaxLiao]

... meaningful PvP.

 

For me, PvP is about conquest - territorial gain (of some sort). Personally, I don't care about making someone else's pixels disappear, except in direct correlation to obtaining mission objectives. This is why you won't find me randomly dueling, fighting off of the doors and nodes in the Alderaan and Voidstar warzones (unless I'm kiting some fools away from my team - God, I love doing that.), or running around Tatooine with the intent of ganking lowbies.

 

Some of my favorite games are Risk, Ascendancy, Civilization, Galactic Civilizations II, Shadowbane (in concept, not implementation), DAoC, and Warhammer Online. This may give you an idea of where I'm coming from.

 

For those of you who love duels, arena combat, 2v2, 4v4, and so forth, this post may not be for you. Oh, I certainly want those features in the game for you, as I believe that more options for more players is a good thing, but my focus here is for providing a real capture and conquest element.

 

 

Here are some brainstorming ideas. I'm not saying to implement all of them, I'm just trying to get the brain juices flowing … and help those of us who hate warzones (especially Huttball) and arenas find a meaning in PvP (in a lore/canon context):

 

• How about being able to take over enemy flight points and camps on, say, Voss. I don't believe this should affect class quests, but all side quests and heroics, and perhaps some flashpoints would be available only to the side that owned those particular camps.
   
  
• Perhaps, if the Republic has control of the majority of the camps on Belsavis, only Republic Forces can do Eternity Vault, or only Republic Forces can attain Biometric Crystal Alloy from the operation.
   
  
• On Ilum add more features like the ability to capture respawn points. If you own certain respawn points, you can get into the fight quicker. So, while the Imperials are camping the Republic Base again, some sneak out and recapture the respawn point preventing the Imps from returning to the fight quickly.
   
  
• On Ilum, how about make the walkers and tanks manned. One to four people, one per side (front, right, back, left) can enter a vehicle and, in effect, do canon damage to the enemy. Still make them destroyable as-is, and when the vehicle blows so do the people manning it. It'll give even more incentive to stop the other team from blowing them up.
   
  
• On Ilum, add three communication arrays. Each one can see 1/3 of the map and will give the controlling team intelligence of that area. Have three modes – Republic owned, Imperial owned, and Contested. For 90 seconds between changing hands the array is in contested mode – as it's reprogrammed or something of the sort, where no side can make use of its ability.
   
  
• Limit certain color crystals to the control of Ilum.
  

 

This post is already too long for most people, so I'll stop there. Of course, this is all related to a PvP server, so I can fully understand that PvE servers may not want to implement many of these ideas.

 

I don't believe that any one player should be able to conquer a planet, just as I don't believe that 50 players should be able to conquer a planet in an hour's time. True conquest should be long, drawn out, require multiple operations groups, etc. DAoC, and to some extent Warhammer Online, had a good first run at this. With some poignant improvements, is a good basis to start.

 

For a game that for the three years leading up to its release touted PvP as a major focus, and for the same basic team that created DAoC and WAR, the PvP in this game is horrible (at best); and in my opinion there is no meaningful - in regard to the lore and galactic conflict - PvP in this game.

 

Every patch, in terms of PvP, has disheartened me more and more regarding PvP in this game.

[AstralProjection]

I'm not totally disheartened by the PVP in TOR - I'm a PVP enthusiast so I just love a good fight, win or lose, whether it's OW, in a Warzone, or naked dueling - but I will say that I totally agree with you about meaningful PVP. I had a brainstorming thread for a while as well, and we came up with some pretty great ideas.

 

One of the big problems we've run into is that the roadmap for BioWare to make PVP meaningful (aside from Ranked Warzones) is a very long term one that won't relieve any of the folks that long for a realistic, living galaxy for probably about a year, and that's being optimistic.

 

Many of the pessimists will tell you that they want to kill it totally, and we'll never see it. Hard to say for me. I really don't want to believe that. We've seen a whole lot of cookie-cuttering of WoW so far, which was the game that ruined meaningful PVP and worlds in general, and sucked all the depth out of MMORPG's and turned it into a very lucrative gear treadmill.

 

I think at least some folks at BioWare would like to see us with meaningful PVP, I just don't know if EA would ever let them invest that much work in something that doesn't support the junkie-model of MMORPG's. Junkie model is cheaper, easier to design and deploy.

 

Then again, they let BW spend money on Voice Acting, which has nothing to do with the junkie model, so maybe there's hope there somewhere.

 

Nevertheless, glad to see people are still brainstorming ways to breathe actual life into our PVP. It's already fun, it's just fighting over useless playgrounds right now, that take us out of the world we quest in rather than immersing us in it. That's why I say "Breathe actual life".

 

Ever been the last one in a warzone or able to walk around them? It's eerie, nothing but you and the tumbleweeds and the announcer who just sits there texting his wife telling her he's going to be home late again.

[Toxicshock]

I agree with the OP 100%. I started my mmo addiction 12 yrs ago with DAoC and no other game has even come close in regards to pvp. Now although I, among alot of others, would kill to see DAoC2 become a reality, it don't look like that will ever happen, but I don't believe Mythic's dev's are the same as they were 12 yrs ago either.

 

Taking from that though, I suggest to revamp Ilum. Do away with the crappy little control points that one player can cap in 20 seconds, enlarge the zone at least 2x what it is now, and make 5 actual bases that we can fight over. Make them similar to the keeps in DAoC, with npc guards, turrets, etc that guilds can claim once captured. Have controlling bases give the entire faction a buff, nothing game breaking, but say something like 5% experience bonus, or 10% extra credits from kills. Keep the same pvp buff on ilum with the valor bonus based on bases owned.

 

The main reason i suggest this is faction balance makes less difference in scenarios like this, 20 republic players who control a base can defend against 50 attacking imps. Also make taking the base a lot more challenging, rather than clicking on something, add a boss level npc base captain that has to be killed before the base is taken.

[Toxicshock]

I agree with the OP 100%. I started my mmo addiction 12 yrs ago with DAoC and no other game has even come close in regards to pvp. Now although I, among alot of others, would kill to see DAoC2 become a reality, it don't look like that will ever happen, but I don't believe Mythic's dev's are the same as they were 12 yrs ago either.

 

Taking from that though, I suggest to revamp Ilum. Do away with the crappy little control points that one player can cap in 20 seconds, enlarge the zone at least 2x what it is now, and make 5 actual bases that we can fight over. Make them similar to the keeps in DAoC, with npc guards, turrets, etc that guilds can claim once captured. Have controlling bases give the entire faction a buff, nothing game breaking, but say something like 5% experience bonus, or 10% extra credits from kills. Keep the same pvp buff on ilum with the valor bonus based on bases owned.

 

The main reason i suggest this is faction balance makes less difference in scenarios like this, 20 republic players who control a base can defend against 50 attacking imps. Also make taking the base a lot more challenging, rather than clicking on something, add a boss level npc base captain that has to be killed before the base is taken.

[Garbald]

While I agree with you completely on your thoughts and love for meaningful pvp,

I really don´t think that pvp server only content on that scale has ever been done or will ever be done.

So even so tor has to my knowledge the highest pvp to pve server ratio I think ideas should be doable on all server types to have any chance to peek the interest of the devs.

 

Still I like the ideas

[rgizzie]

ideas that are easy and would work. Have all planets everywhere PvP and do away with PvE servers. (if you want to quest and not be bothered with PvP you can not declare yourself for PvP). Don't have instances except in flashpoints. Don't make planets lvl specific (that would be hard to change) And combine space ports so Imp and Rep have to use the same one. Get people mixed up more. Allow chat between factions. (a little S^^% talking is good)

 

just my two cents.

[MaxLiao]

All in all, I appreciate the positive feedback and the other ideas people propose.

 

One of the things my guild likes to do is go to a planet and 'own' it. We're not big enough to take over a full planet, but we'll go from Imp base to Imp base killing guards, questing players, medics, taxis, and etc. We'll stay in one location for about 15 minutes killing the guards as they respawn and any players that come by, then move on to the next camp.

 

Our intent is not to bottom feed (so we don't choose Tatooine as our first destination), but we do it to remind people this is a PvP server, and to use PvP with a group in an open world setting. We would like to see this more and more with our allied Republic and Sith guilds, and actually mimic a full planetary scale battle sometime.

 

Before that can happen, Bioware is going to have to give us a (game mechanics) reason to do it. Most players are like, "why should I do this? I don't get anything for it." I guess the fun of it just isn't enticing enough.

 

Why do we have PvP servers again?

 

ideas that are easy and would work. Have all planets everywhere PvP and do away with PvE servers. (if you want to quest and not be bothered with PvP you can not declare yourself for PvP). Don't have instances except in flashpoints. Don't make planets lvl specific (that would be hard to change) And combine space ports so Imp and Rep have to use the same one. Get people mixed up more. Allow chat between factions. (a little S^^% talking is good)

 

just my two cents.

 

In my mind an enemy is an enemy. Flagging is one of the things I hated about SWG. I played Empire in the game (and quit before NGE), but it drove me nuts when I saw Rebels 'passive' and I couldn't do anything about it. That's one of the reasons I play on a PvP server - to kill or be killed by the enemy.

 

Above and beyond Flashpoints, I would allow class quests to be instanced. People should be able to get their class story with minimal interruption, and since that's maybe 10% of all the quests your character has, it's not that big of a problem to be PvP exempt at that time.

 

I don't get into tea-bagging downed foes, or to calling everyone n00bs when I win a 5-1 fight, so I actually like they way they implemented cross team chat in SWTOR. /say and /em can be read by everyone, everything else is team specific.

[Ossos]

Not gonna happen, here's why:

 

 

People, generally, who play this game and find the mechanics "enthralling" aren't that great at PvP...nor PvE for that matter. If you'll notice, the mechanics of any given class aren't that deep. Additionally, across classes, the mechanics are pretty much the same (same ability, different name/animation).

 

Thus, you really can't go too deep with the complexity of PvE, the reason being is that the class designs limit you in this area (refer to healing classes only having 3 healing buttons).

 

The same goes for PvP. If you have a playerbase that is incapable of grasping difficult PvE and class concepts, then you have a playerbase that is less likely to grasp ideas relating to tactics (Assualts, Defense) and the real need to be halfway decent at either one.

 

This is why you see so many crying threads on Pre-mades. The argument being "People who work together are OP!"

 

I'm sorry, but that concept and player POV flies in the face of any really interesting game design (PvP or PvE).

 

 

Thus, you are left with a game that is akin to a Mashed Potato sandwich on white bread...and anytime you add cheese or god forbid...toast the bread....people complain that the flavor is simply too complex.

 

 

 

TL;DR This game will never have anything "meaningful" because the playerbase is full of baddies.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Ossos

[SWImara]

First off, Shadowbane 4tw! That game was my introduction to PvP and basically shaped my future expectations. Warhammer Online was also a blast, one of the few times I've ever really been disappointed in a game's tanking.

 

To be frank, I never expected anything out of PvP in SWTOR, I think this is partially why I find the game so enjoyable at the moment. The PvP that currently exists in SWTOR is a blast even if terribly shallow, as has been the trend in all games to follow the WoW model. So at the moment I am enjoying it for what it is, and having a good deal of fun.

 

That being said, it is my hope that eventually they will put some effort into supporting open or large scale conflicts. I don't necessarily need real open world PvP (as in my opinion that practically requires FFA play to be successful) but I would love to see some Alterac or Tol Barad flavored materials (I know, shame on me referencing WoW). I think it'd be great if one day (not expecting this any time soon) we get a zone or two devoted to territorial control, building and destroying etc. Ideally this zone would focus on guild play rather than the standard RvR approach.

 

I think lots of your suggestions are great, but it is my hope that they put some time into really thinking out what they want to do with open world PvP and large scale conflict. The hash job that was Ilum on release through 1.1 isn't something I'd like to see repeated. More than anything else I hope that open world PvP doesn't become the focus of critical rewards. When people see open world PvP as the best way to gain (whatever meaningless resource) we get crappy behaviors like kill trading etc. I don't need any special rewards (save maybe to my guild for owning territory) and offering rewards draws people in who do not actually enjoy this aspect of play and are just doing it for the loots.

Edited March 8, 2012 by SWImara

[Dark_Exile]

Now looking at other games i have played - UO on release through DAoC and pretty much everything inbetween, the only PVP i have ever seen in any game thats decent, rewarding, and even makes people who repeatedly fail want to continue, is REWARD.

 

Loot drops from bodies, bounties, outlaw/criminal systems and most off all TERRITORY CONTROL.

 

So in saying that, go look at the GW2 beta WvW video and tell me you wouldn't want something like that for illum, personally i think that game will suck balls (arenanet - NCsoft) however, if Illum, or say some new world were created, were it was like that, well problem solved.

 

Risk and reward Bioware

[Gorghte]

...

Taking from that though, I suggest to revamp Ilum. Do away with the crappy little control points that one player can cap in 20 seconds, enlarge the zone at least 2x what it is now, and make 5 actual bases that we can fight over. Make them similar to the keeps in DAoC, with npc guards, turrets, etc that guilds can claim once captured. Have controlling bases give the entire faction a buff, nothing game breaking, but say something like 5% experience bonus, or 10% extra credits from kills. Keep the same pvp buff on ilum with the valor bonus based on bases owned.

 

The main reason i suggest this is faction balance makes less difference in scenarios like this, 20 republic players who control a base can defend against 50 attacking imps. Also make taking the base a lot more challenging, rather than clicking on something, add a boss level npc base captain that has to be killed before the base is taken.

 

I also loved the PvP in DAoC from the group keep takes to the full scale zergs in Emain. The only thing I think that prevents this from being truly functional in TOR is that it doesn't have the 3rd faction. I really believe that having three factions was what made DAoC PvP work. Even saying that, I think something similar in TOR, using Ilum or a new planet, would be worth a try. Along with minimal but useful bonuses like the ones suggested above, it should help provide enough incentive to get people to come out.

[prodigyqnz]

I agree with the OP 100%. I started my mmo addiction 12 yrs ago with DAoC and no other game has even come close in regards to pvp. Now although I, among alot of others, would kill to see DAoC2 become a reality, it don't look like that will ever happen, but I don't believe Mythic's dev's are the same as they were 12 yrs ago either.

 

Taking from that though, I suggest to revamp Ilum. Do away with the crappy little control points that one player can cap in 20 seconds, enlarge the zone at least 2x what it is now, and make 5 actual bases that we can fight over. Make them similar to the keeps in DAoC, with npc guards, turrets, etc that guilds can claim once captured. Have controlling bases give the entire faction a buff, nothing game breaking, but say something like 5% experience bonus, or 10% extra credits from kills. Keep the same pvp buff on ilum with the valor bonus based on bases owned.

The main reason i suggest this is faction balance makes less difference in scenarios like this, 20 republic players who control a base can defend against 50 attacking imps. Also make taking the base a lot more challenging, rather than clicking on something, add a boss level npc base captain that has to be killed before the base is taken.

 

excellent Idea. aswell as possibly create similar things on other worlds. Spread it out a bit. This is something similar also to SWG PVP Bases. With npc mobs to protect the base so you cant just run up and take it .. you had to kill everything first. Once captured the other faction would be alerted and while you held it you would get a buff to GCW basically the valor of SWG. I think what else would help pvp is to remove the seperation of the factions. In galaxies all the factions could see and interact with each other. Rather than being flagged all the time.. allow the option to flag up and down for pvp. this way Lowbies can move around without griefing the Planetary systems can be merged instead of blocked from certain factions. What kinda mmo doesnt allow all people to communicate with eachother. At least this would better allow opposing factions/guilds to plan some kind of Battle as well.

[Ancaglon]

This proposal would be enforcing world PVP on people that have no interest in PVP -- and given the acknowledged population imbalance in favour of the Empire on the vast majority of servers, it makes the game even less attractive to play Republic. WoW attempted this with Wintergrasp, and basically made the population imbalances WORSE on every server (there, the imbalances were far less systematic, but the Wintergrasp XP bonus made the dominant side more so).

[MaxLiao]

This proposal would be enforcing world PVP on people that have no interest in PVP -- and given the acknowledged population imbalance in favour of the Empire on the vast majority of servers, it makes the game even less attractive to play Republic. WoW attempted this with Wintergrasp, and basically made the population imbalances WORSE on every server (there, the imbalances were far less systematic, but the Wintergrasp XP bonus made the dominant side more so).

This system of flagging is already in place. You chose to flag on a PvE server, you're auto-flagged on a PvP server. This is how it is and should be.

[SWImara]

Risk and reward Bioware

I think this is the core of what has been missing from PvP for years. Unfortunately I don't think we're really likely to see it return. On one hand the removal of risk makes more people interested in PvP, there is less barrier to entry and the idea of being punished for getting pwnt is clearly too much for some. On the other it essentially makes most PvP meaningless.

 

Now that we've gotten to the point that even a corpse run or a boot back to respawn base is too much for people to endure I wouldn't ever expect a return to the days of corpse looting and/or property destruction.

[Talizzar]

Be careful with the risk and reward concept.

 

Those that have been playing the game longer will be better. The new people ranking up will be ganked over and over and continual loss will drive people from the game.

 

Pirates of the Burning Sea has loss. Some will argue it is minimal but the fact is the majority of casual players do not like to save up for the big shiny and then lose it. Games have to have the casual player because there are not enough hard core pvpers.

 

Pirates started out strong and is now down to two servers with a very small population and a F2P game. Even in that game gear or consumables are contributing factors to winning.

 

You can't tell people to deal with the loss as there is no way to deal with the loss. The excellent players with all the gear will roll and there little the casual player can do about it.

 

There are no easy answers. Repair bills are one thing. The take what a player has in the way of stuff will drive most people away.

 

When I played Warhammer many of those people played DAOC and loved it but it did not survive. Warhammer was great fun at the lower levels. Not so much at the higher levels when it became much like this game a CC game. Faction imbalance was probably a factor there too. When you create one side that is cool looking, great ships, great content and another side that looks like the ugly step sister you are going to have imbalance.

 

There is no easy fix to the Pub content. They could introduce better looking ships, gear etc but the pub worlds to me feel like I am more of a trespasser or interloper into the pub worlds than a welcomed guest.

 

SWTOR has class balance pretty close. Sure there will always need some adjustments here and there but for the most part the nerf threads have calmed. Too many cries for nerfs were based on one side being dominated by one type of class because that class was cool looking and fairly easy to play. There is much more diversity in the groups lately as more people have leveled up other toons and have found they like that class better.

 

This game was about two sides gearing up or in a war. Where is the war? Why are all the questiing areas separated? If the devs wanted more pvp then they would have had more areas where both sides needed to be to complete missions. Most of the worlds are far too large for the populations that each server can handled.

 

Make Ilum bigger? Why? The current Ilum could hold 500 people. When 100 are one they are all in one tiny area of the map.

 

There needs to be a reason for open world pvp. Objectives with meaning to take other than a silly boost in a stat they have done away with. A progression towards and end.

 

For good open world pvp to happen you have to have sides that are balanced with the pvpers. You have to filter out all those that roll on a pvp server and sit all day in a fp? Why not go join a pve server?

 

Pirates had a problem where small groups of people would take objectives when nobody was on. This would need to be addressed as well. The bigger battles should take place when the majority of players play.

 

My faith that the devs can do this is low. These are the same guys that did Warhammer and Warhammer was done far better. My question is why is the PVP in this game so poorly done. Was it a directive from above or did they just completely blow it?

[Panzerbase]

Game engine can't handle what you want, oh wells.

[Cruxe]

Duels have their purpose. Unless you want to play every single class, they are the best way of knowing what your opponent is going to use against you.

[MaxLiao]

Duels have their purpose. Unless you want to play every single class, they are the best way of knowing what your opponent is going to use against you.

I absolutely agree with this. When I say I don't duel, I'm talking duels for the sake of, "I pwnz0rd j00 i R l33t." For me, as I stated in the original post, PvP is about the galactic conflict, not making someone's pixels disappear to placate my ego.

 

I don't care which 1v1, 2v2, or 5v5 team is better. I care that the Republic kicks the Sith Empire out of the Galaxy.

 

Warhammer was great fun at the lower levels. Not so much at the higher levels when it became much like this game a CC game.

To me, CC (like healing and gear) should tweak battles, not define them. I know SWTOR wasn't built that way, so I accept it, but even with those flaws, give us (at least those of us on PvP servers) actual Galactic conflict.

 

 

This game was about two sides gearing up or in a war. Where is the war? Why are all the questiing areas separated? If the devs wanted more pvp then they would have had more areas where both sides needed to be to complete missions.

I was playing my Sith alt yesterday, and not a single time did I see a Republic character on Voss. It was disheartening.

 

Make Ilum bigger? Why? The current Ilum could hold 500 people. When 100 are one they are all in one tiny area of the map.

And don't forget about the lag.

 

There needs to be a reason for open world pvp. Objectives with meaning to take other than a silly boost in a stat they have done away with. A progression towards and end.

You and I are on the same page in this.

[Fiannaidhe]

VERY good points in the OP. Despite playing on a PVP server, PVP is not one of my main concerns. You r suggestions would greatly increase my interest in assisting PVP efforts for a Guild.

 

I hate Ilum and don't even bother to go there because I view it as a huge time sink, not really worth the price of admission for my gaming time when I log on to play. Yes this means I'm undergeared for PVP, and I'm willing to accept this because I see no point in the PVP effort.

 

On a side note it really pisses me off that my blossoming Raid gear doesn't seem to help as much in PVP. I HATE having to maintain 2 sets of gear. MY PVP gear should be as Viable in Raids, and vice versa. I can go toe to toe with the Raid boss, but a single Empire or Republic player who has the 'proper' raid gear can burn me down in nanseconds?! Not fun.