Bioware needs to explain themselves. This make no sense.

[reverendsaintjay]

I am seriously getting sick of people like you. Posting vague comments like "it's the energy regen" then turning tail and running.

 

I can precast Kolto Probe before the encounter so that all I have to do is refresh it periodically on my target. That KP stack will generate enough TA over the course of the fight to keep Stim Boost up at all times, preventing me from ever dropping below 5e/s regen.

 

With Stim Boost active, my Time To Recover (TTR) for Kolto Injection is now 4.167 seconds. In that 4.167 seconds I can:

 

Cast KI (2 sec talented cast)

Cast SP (instant cast, 1.5s GCD)

Wait .667 seconds to get back to 100e

 

Using all of the tools available to me, Kolto Injection is effectively an energy neutral ability, negating every single argument you have tried to bring into this thread. This should be completely evident to anyone that has played an Operative past level 30, which is why so few people bother to explain it to you. If you haven't gotten it by now, you aren't going to, and it's a waste of time to try to clue you in to it.

 

Operatives have problems, some of those problems are severe. Our resource mechanic just isn't on the list of things that need to be 'fixed'.

[Ojas]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=348775

 

Just to make it clear. This thread is about the specific set bonus being substantially better for sorcerer compared to operative. Same type of set bonus though.

 

The post I just linked to, pointed out the fact that every single set bonus in operative healing gear (both pve and pvp, both 2 and 4 piece) is useless.

They are either bonuses to abilities we do not use because of how bad the ability is, or it's the useless +5 energy.

 

See this thread for prof of how bad +5 energy really is. Sorcerers +50 force is over 2 times more effective.

[Shroudveil]

I can precast Kolto Probe before the encounter so that all I have to do is refresh it periodically on my target. That KP stack will generate enough TA over the course of the fight to keep Stim Boost up at all times, preventing me from ever dropping below 5e/s regen.

 

With Stim Boost active, my Time To Recover (TTR) for Kolto Injection is now 4.167 seconds. In that 4.167 seconds I can:

 

Cast KI (2 sec talented cast)

Cast SP (instant cast, 1.5s GCD)

Wait .667 seconds to get back to 100e

 

Using all of the tools available to me, Kolto Injection is effectively an energy neutral ability, negating every single argument you have tried to bring into this thread. This should be completely evident to anyone that has played an Operative past level 30, which is why so few people bother to explain it to you. If you haven't gotten it by now, you aren't going to, and it's a waste of time to try to clue you in to it.

 

Operatives have problems, some of those problems are severe. Our resource mechanic just isn't on the list of things that need to be 'fixed'.

 

yes and no.

 

in the current (sad) state of operatives energy is sustainable.

 

because we only have 1 frigging rotation to do. spam ki->sp till our fingers bleed.

 

you say we don't have energy problems? sure. but then i ask you, how many times in an encounter do you use your best by far (by ~25%more hps) healing spell (infusion)?

 

if we had decent regen tools (aka if DS wasn't utter piece of crap) we could maybe, maybe i say do a ki->infusion->ki->infusion->ki->infusion in a burst phase and not be ooe for ~30secs (unless we burn a 2min cd!, gz we can burst heal one of the attacks of the boss...)

 

edit:

to clarify what my point is.

 

we were supposed to be a fast regen, low pool class. atm we have similar regen to sorcs:

sorcs need ~4.6sec to regen their main heal if they just do 1 consumption WITHOUT a free proc/10sec

oper need ~4.1sec to regen their main heal if they are in the top of their energy pool and they have stim boost running

 

the disparacy comes from the fact that sorcs have a vast pool (600vs 40 for the regn we are talking about) so that means much more freedom to burst or to sustain or to regen. we only have 1 option: sustain or die, if burst damage of boss> ki+sp then the tank dies, simple as that.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Shroudveil

[Chaede]

What factor makes operative viable. What makes them balanced?

 

1.5s faster regen than sorcerer if they stay about 40 energy. Significantly lower regen if they fall below 40 energy.

 

Ojas, the onus is on you to provide empirical evidence to support your claim. At the moment you have only provided anecdotal evidence or cherry picked and compared some abilities and features.

 

I am not saying you might not have a point, just that you have not adequately provided an argument that you do. It is not up to me to provide evidence to the opposite even if I disagreed with you or thought that things were fine, I don't honestly know as I don't have enough experience to make that claim and no one has presented real empirical evidence to substantiate it one way or the other.

 

Putting the question back on me is also a bad way to demostrate what you think is the problem. It might work in a debate, but I am not debating with you, I am suggesting that if you want your point to be taken seriously you do so in a way that can be substantiated with empirical evidence.

 

You have in short claimed that there is an imbalance between set bonuses and provided theories based on incomplete or comparisons not backed by empirical evidence.

 

I am not saying you are wrong, just that you have not done anything to prove or substantiate that you are right.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Chaede

[Epyon_]

Fine, Bioware please remove the +5 energy on IA/Smug gear and give them +50 force.

 

For balance!

 

..

 

Classes are slightly different. If you want something another class has go play that class.

[Rafkin]

I have the same response as i give on the tank comparison threads.

 

Can operatives heal all modes of all ops/flashpoints? Yep. So who cares if another class can do it easier?

[Ezren]

I have the same response as i give on the tank comparison threads.

 

Can operatives heal all modes of all ops/flashpoints? Yep. So who cares if another class can do it easier?

 

Thats an amazingly bad way of looking at things though. Do we, as humans, not gravitate towards doing things an "easier" way over a harder way?

 

Sure, you could walk from New York to Washington, but flying sure is a heck of a lot easier. You could even say someone who would try to walk it would be an idiot.

 

Same principal applies here, in a simplified form, if you can do the same content MUCH easier on another class.....why not just use that other class?

 

Balance should involve being able to do the current content with roughly the same "work", but in different ways. Right now the different healer types sure have different ways, but they have no parity in how much "work" they use to achieve it.

 

A well played operative/smuggler healer is FAR better off using a sorc/sage healer because they will have more tools, easier healing and more enjoyment from the content.

[Novare]

No; You do not know what you are talking about.

Yes if Innervate crits. Either the initial heal or one of the three hot ticks.

At 33% crit chance that is a probability of getting the effect after casting Innervate = .33+.33+.33+.33 = 1.32; That's over 100% chance of getting the effect.

 

 

/snip

 

You are again wrong and horribly so. You do not add percent chance together for an overime ability.

 

At 33percent chance to crit, your chance at a crit is 33percent for intial and every tick thereafter.

 

You are misrepresenting abilities and straight out lying to make your point, that is a no no if you want to be taken seriously.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Novare

[Onager]

Why do people feel the need to experience actual real outrage about a videogame? And then crusade about it on forums? I'll never understand.

[Dinoviking]

Why do people feel the need to experience actual real outrage about a videogame? And then crusade about it on forums? I'll never understand.

 

Totally agree. This level of obsessed, nerdrage number-crunching serves no other purpose than to suck the fun completely out of the game. I have no idea why people do this to themselves.

 

Chill out, play the game for fun, move on with your life. It's not that important, it's not worth the headache, you're gonna give yourself a coronary for no good reason. OP, you are taking this whole thing way too seriously and need to let it go and just play the damn game. If you are either unable or unwilling to do so, get help. Quickly. You need it.

 

It's just a game dude. Get over it.

[QuaziPance]

Not sure what you mean. I would like to see sorcerers force regen dropped to 1/s fixed but their pool left alone.

 

Right now, they have no force issues. Unlike operatives who have to focus their ENTIRE play style around energy.

 

Exactly! play style! You got it!

 

That is the only difference between the two classes.

 

Sage plays like a traditional MMO healer. You go through your rotation and hope you don't run out resources before the mob goes down. You have emergency things to regen your force when things go to crap. You have abilities/equipment to make this hopefully not happen as much.

 

operatives do not play like a traditional MMO healer. If you are playing them in the same way you play a sage then the sage will do better. Much in the same way that if you play a sage in the same way you play a warrior the warrior will probably run out of resources less often than the sage... these comparisons are equally valid.

 

operatives play in such a way that they can keep someone healed very well without ever dipping below 70 - 80%. When things get bad you have to dip into that reserve however, and then things get complicated because you may or may not have your regen abilities up, in which case you are now unable to sustain your tank, so it may be better to not dip into it, or only dip into when you know the tank is going to be okay for a bit (shields are up, mob is stunned, etc.)

 

Basically I would say that the only way in which the sage is better than the operative is that everyone already knows how to play the sage, because it follows a simple, linear model of mana increasing and decreasing like in the regular healer class from the games we've been playing our whole lives. With an operative it does not come as natural, as you really are forced to think ahead a few steps with every heal you use, and you are required to depend a bit more on luck (which flavor wise makes very much sense, and I think makes the game better as a whole).

 

Overall it seems the people arguing that the operative is under-powered just don't like the play style, luckily for you, you can just play a different class.

[Boarg]

For the OP... It's a complete apples to oranges comparison because the resource models are completely different in how they play.

 

The amusing thing is that your conclusion is completely backwards. If anything, the Scoundrel/Op bonus is more valuable to their class than the Sage/Sorcerer bonus is to their class.

 

Once operation playing Sage/Sorc players learn to manage their mana, the +50 mana generally doesn't affect their performance or playstyle at all. Most of them consider it the most worthless set bonus in the game.

 

For a Scoundrel/Op player, their bonus gives them a bigger buffer to work with while staying within the high levels of energy regen. It impacts their available play choices in a positive way, allowing slightly more flexibility.

 

You're in here complaining, wishing for a bigger energy pool increase because it actually matters for you. A Sage player could care less.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Boarg

[Maxillious]

I think the core issue here isn't the balance between Sorcs/sages and Ops/Scoundrels.

 

Many people are just unhappy with the regen mechanics of the tech healers. When dealing with Oh-crap moments you want to have the ability for high burst healing. In the Tech healer's case, you can only burst heal for a few casts and then are stuck. This penalty is doubly harsh due to reduced regen at lower energy levels.

 

People are using class comparisons to make their point, but its really just off base.

 

Ops/Scoundrels will only really be happy when two fundamental issues are fixed. First is that we no longer have to deal with maintaining a single stack of tactical advantage for maximum healing efficiency. Second is no longer feeling so burdened by periods of high burst healing.

 

IMHO the fixes in 1.2 might help, but without a much larger energy pool or cheaper high HP heals we are still limited.