The Forgotten Playerbase: Where are my macros?

[lollermittens]

*EDIT* 3/7/2012

Since this thread has exponentially grown to my surprise, I would like to put my definition of what I believe macros would accomplish in this game in order to deviate from all the misinformation and confusion surrounding the issue. I will also post a definition regarding scripting since a lot of folks seem to think both terms are synonymous:

 

Macros: to streamline the automation of a repetitive activity which would result in the same expected outcome even if that activity were to be performed manually.

 

Script (from Wikipedia): program written for a software environment that automates the execution of tasks which could alternatively be executed one by one by a human operator.

 

A macro is not a third-party software or program. It would be a native functionality within the game to create a more unique and tailored experience for each player. In retrospect, those using current third-party software that comes along their keyboards/mice are indeed using scripting programs.

*END EDIT*

 

Let me start out by saying that I want to give props to BioWare for creating one of the most successful MMOs in recent history. The game has many faults and many bugs but it has been smooth overall (a.k.a I'm able to log-in and play without servers or my machine crashing every 10 minutes).

 

The Guild Summit, for many players, was a make-or-break deal. It answered many questions regarding a shaky economy, a static UI, the current state of the bugged FPs and OPS, a few answers regarding ranked PvP, and other information. But one decision has me confused, and to be completely honest, pretty angry.

 

I was baffled at your decision not to include macros because: "We don't want to add another barrier to entry in terms of gameplay."

 

I understand that your business model is to cater to the majority of players who are casuals. But from the statistics you gave yesterday, it seems that most players aren't so casual: the average player plays 5 hours per day and almost playing a full 40 hours per week. That's almost comparable to a full-time job. And that's most of your "casual" audience.

 

From what I've gathered by reading threads which touch upon the issues of macros, a majority on these forums (I am aware of the fact that the forums also poorly represent the entire playerbase in general) have simply no idea what a macro does. For most players, they believe that a macro equates to inputing all your abilities onto one command line then spamming this over and over again until your rotation is completed. This isn't Rift; this isn't WoW (even though it has borrowed almost every idea from the-game-that-must-not-be-named). Macros, ultimately, increase the rate of efficiency at which a player can manage his abilities along with the better management of a player's resource (rage/force/heat/etc); it promotes creativity when it comes to certain builds and also promotes those "quality of life" improvements you're so fond of by making certain actions automated and easier to handle. Example: as a Marauder, I would love to include Retaliation (an ability which is off the GCD and procs if you parry/dodge a melee attack) in front of all my offensive abilities meaning that if I parry or defend an attack, my next Annihilate will cast Retaliation then Annihilate without having to manually use Retalation.

 

This accomplishes two things:

1. The most obvious is that it frees up a space on an already limited number of hotbars, which are not being increased in 1.2 by the way
   
2. The other is that it automates ability usage and lets me be more efficient in terms of ability/rage management
   

 

This is what most players who are against macros don't understand. They think of it as an unfair advantage even though macros are accessible to everyone including the vocal majority who are against them. There are many more reasons that are argued against the use for macros, but most of them are asinine and can be easily debunked. I won't waste my time going over those since, to me at least, being against macros is the same as being against the self-checkout at your local grocery store: it's there for everyone to use, it won't give you an advantage if you use it and nobody is forcing you to use it. You're just being inefficient and showing that you are scared of change by automating your checkout process. It's unfortunate that the majority of folks are risk-averse.

 

It also baffles me that nothing was mentioned regarding the the good chunk of players who would love to have macros. It's not because you include macros in the game that they are necessary to use. Look at WoW for example (since this game is a clone of WoW): the macros have always been present but most people didn't use them since the audience of WoW is even more casual than that of SW:TOR's. If anything, most people didn't since they downloaded add-ons to do the work for them.

 

Your decision to not include macros in this game is very, very disappointing. It is a staple functionality in many modern MMOs and your belief that it will add another layer of complexity to an already very simple game is unfounded and false. If what you claim is really true, that your average player spends 5 hours per day, they can take the 10 minutes it would take to read a tutorial about the use of macros. And again, if they don't want to use it, don't use them. It won't even change their gameplay one bit. Don't penalize the chunk of players who'd love to have macros because a vocal majority on the forums out of all places is scared of something they don't understand.

 

I had high hopes for this game. Most of what was introduced in 1.2 should have been included at launch hence reinforcing the belief that this game was rushed for the holidays -- don't have to be a genius to figure that out. But your decision to not include macros in the game will come back and bite you in the butt in the future once more skills and content is added onto the game. And I'll be right here, shaking my head and saying to myself... "I told you so."

 

TL;DR - Very disappointed at BW's decision not to include macros in the game to avoid adding "an extra layer of complexity onto the gameplay."

Edited March 7, 2012 by lollermittens

[Kavell]

Buy a Decent KB and Mouse.

 

TL;DR - there are other ways to skin this cat.

[System_TOR]

TL;DR - Very disappointed at BW's decision not to include macros in the game to avoid adding "an extra layer of complexity onto the gameplay."

 

Thats not how I understood it, I thought Georg was more concerned about people making IWin 1 button macros that could chain a whole series of skills, and he said something about until they find a way to gate that then there is no combat macros. So until things change I will continue to macro using my G13.

[Obmil]

I have a former guildie who plays all sorts of MMOs. He refused to play SWTOR due to their Macro problems. I say problems as he's in a wheelchair, and has limited use of one hand, no use of the other, but does fine with most games via some very cool hardware/software combinations (head tracking, sip/puff controllers, etc). SWTOR/EAWare's stance on Macros has pretty much destroyed his desire to play this game, as he doesn't want to invest his time in it due to the haziness on the Macro issue.

 

Thanks Bioware.

[lollermittens]

Thats not how I understood it, I thought Georg was more concerned about people making IWin 1 button macros that could chain a whole series of skills, and he said something about until they find a way to gate that then there is no combat macros. So until things change I will continue to macro using my G13.

 

Those "I-Win" macros were present in both Rift and WoW. The minority of players used them. And to be completely honest, not many builds benefit from putting your entire rotation into one macro. For PvE purposes, if you're static and standing in one spot and spamming the same ability (*cough*BH/Troopers/Sorcs*cough*), I can see yourself creating an "I-Win" macro, but you'd still need to have your abilities displayed on your hotbar to see which are on cooldown and which are not.

 

I thought that his answer was just dodging the real question which was: "Why would you guys not include even the most basic form of macro-creation available?" And they never answered that.

[lollermittens]

I have a former guildie who plays all sorts of MMOs. He refused to play SWTOR due to their Macro problems. I say problems as he's in a wheelchair, and has limited use of one hand, no use of the other, but does fine with most games via some very cool hardware/software combinations (head tracking, sip/puff controllers, etc). SWTOR/EAWare's stance on Macros has pretty much destroyed his desire to play this game, as he doesn't want to invest his time in it due to the haziness on the Macro issue.

 

Thanks Bioware.

 

Wow, I was not aware of that. Even though your friend is definitely in the minority given his physical issues, this is a perfect example where the omission of macros is actually keeping BioWare from getting a customer!

[Vincynt]

I'm not overly for or against macro's myself. I find I have enough hot bars at lvl 50 that I don't overly need more, I use a Logitech G15 Keyboard and a Razer Naga Epic as a mouse so I have lots of keys to bind and my keyboard can support macro's if I wanted to make them.

 

I never really understood the need or want for Macro's, and always had a hard time trying to code them myself. I always found I had enough space and buttons for what I wanted. I was able to perform my tasks easily enough without them.

 

I'm pretty indifferent and don't understand the "IWIN" fear but maybe that's because of my lack of understanding macro's.

 

But since I'm not against them I'll give you a shameless bump so you get more forum reading!

[Malastare]

I'm quite happy that Bioware isn't including combat macros.

 

SWTOR is a game. Play it. Don't script up the game to play itself.

 

I'm fine with "macros" for various RP/emote/chat functions. But not combat macros, which is what Bioware said no to today.

 

The point --as it has been made over and over and over-- is that combat macros make a minority of players extra efficient. In same cases, viciously efficient, to the point that PvP becomes imbalanced. Even when that isn't the case, it still imbalances other content (PvE, particularly) to a degree that makes it difficult/impossible to balance the game for normal people and the minority using combat macros. Of course, its the macro-users who complain about the game being too easy and demanding new challenges ... challenges which only those using combat macros can practically conquer.

 

And don't tell me "I'm not going to complain about the game being too easy!" because we all know that's a lie. Dozens of games have shown that this is where things head.

[Matte_Black]

Any way you slice it, your "more efficient" use of abilities makes the game easier. The devs will admit to their being more abilities than easily accessible slots and how certain macros could be quite convenient but, ultimately, they seem against adding an additional process which more basic players might not get or pass over to make the game easier to play. Especially when it would likely more effectively aid the gameplay of veteran players more than the unskilled. It's not good to spread the range of play ability this way.

 

That being said, they did seem in favor of streamlining some of the processes and uncluttering the trays some. Making healing easier is one area of note as is how they removed companion abilities to a separate bar of their own. Ultimately, they'd like to add the intended end benefit of macros without the extra complexity.

[Sparklehorse]

Meh. A whole lot of words for something we don't really need.

 

Would I like some to help with some of the mundane stuff? Sure I would but not enough base my whole enjoyment of gaming experience on it.

 

I was hooked on the sweet sweet candy of macros for over 6 years and am finding living without them to be rewarding and nowhere near as difficult as I thought it would be.

 

I believe others have stated, there are ways to perform some of the functions macros perform via hardware nowadays anyway so I really don't see what the hurry is...or the fuss.

[lollermittens]

I'm not overly for or against macro's myself. I find I have enough hot bars at lvl 50 that I don't overly need more, I use a Logitech G15 Keyboard and a Razer Naga Epic as a mouse so I have lots of keys to bind and my keyboard can support macro's if I wanted to make them.

 

I never really understood the need or want for Macro's, and always had a hard time trying to code them myself. I always found I had enough space and buttons for what I wanted. I was able to perform my tasks easily enough without them.

 

I'm pretty indifferent and don't understand the "IWIN" fear but maybe that's because of my lack of understanding macro's.

 

But since I'm not against them I'll give you a shameless bump so you get more forum reading!

 

Hey, thanks for the reply. You definitely fall in the category of players who don't understand macros too well (hence your inability to "code" them; trust me, macro-building is nothing close to coding) but would also not care if they were in the game. That's the attitude most players should have. And if BW put the effort forth, they could give you a quick in-game tutorial on how to create a macro with some of your most used abilities.

[Asavar]

Stop crying, non-combat macros are fine. Basically what you want is the game to play for you so you can make casting macros. Nope, sorry. l2p.

 

Don't deny it.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Asavar

[Mrip]

I understand macros and am glad they aren't in the game.

[Xanikk]

I'm quite happy that Bioware isn't including combat macros.

 

SWTOR is a game. Play it. Don't script up the game to play itself.

 

 

Sorry but macros don't do that. Apparently so many SWTOR players have no clue what macros do in mmos.

[lollermittens]

I'm quite happy that Bioware isn't including combat macros.

 

SWTOR is a game. Play it. Don't script up the game to play itself.

 

I'm fine with "macros" for various RP/emote/chat functions. But not combat macros, which is what Bioware said no to today.

 

The point --as it has been made over and over and over-- is that combat macros make a minority of players extra efficient. In same cases, viciously efficient, to the point that PvP becomes imbalanced. Even when that isn't the case, it still imbalances other content (PvE, particularly) to a degree that makes it difficult/impossible to balance the game for normal people and the minority using combat macros. Of course, its the macro-users who complain about the game being too easy and demanding new challenges ... challenges which only those using combat macros can practically conquer.

 

And don't tell me "I'm not going to complain about the game being too easy!" because we all know that's a lie. Dozens of games have shown that this is where things head.

 

That's fear-mongering at its best. The players you're describing were maybe those folks in the 2,100 rating+ brackets in WoW Arena and even then, they were the extreme minority. Most players never even got to PvP against them since they never reached that rank.

 

And trust me, if they were to implement the creation of macros tomorrow, I wouldn't become better overnight. It would simply add some much-needed automation so I can be more effective in using more important abilities.

 

I completely disagree that the game in its "natural" form provides more of a challenge without macros. If one can bind his keys efficiently enough so that the most used abilities are bound to the most ergonomic keys around your left hand, then you've already maximized your efficiency when it comes to skill rotation. Macros would add to that efficiency, making it invaluable for many more scenarios not only exclusive to PvP.

[_gideon]

Good post OP, summed up my thoughts.

 

The macros people want are not I-WIN buttons that play your class for you. They're a lot more basic than that and an essential extension of UI customisation.

 

This decision leaves no in-game alternative to programmable keyboards and mice. I realise that there are deals with Razer at stake but surely ownership of a G-15 or Naga is a higher barrier to entry than whatever they're worried about?

[ArtMonster]

I am on the side that doesnt see any need for macros.

 

game is working just fine without them.

[StarXchaser]

For a long time, in the history of MMOs, combat macros have existed. And in most games, players using combat macros have had a distinct advantage over non-macro users. For example: SW:G had macros that basically automated your character, allowing you to turn into a bot to farm spawn points, and kill stuff for hours on end if you were a skilled enough macro writer. Or you had a friend who was seriously skilled, and could write one for you.

 

In WoW, you had the infamous BM Hunter macro, which by constantly clicking one button, you were able to max out your DPS. Now granted, that macro came as a response to an error in how damage for Hunters was made, but it still made the game essentially a one button spam fest.

 

I tried out RIFT for a while, but left after a few months. One of the reasons I left was due to the sweeping, across the board, use of macros. In fact, if you do a search of the RIFT community forum, you will see some basically (IMHO), game breaking, meta macros that turn the game into a 3-6 button push.

 

TL;DR: Combat macros reduce the skill required to play a game down to a minimal level. And this game is optimized so you only need to push at most 6 buttons to do max DPS.

[System_TOR]

Those "I-Win" macros were present in both Rift and WoW.

 

Yes and I'm taking it that they do not want to have it happen in TOR. They cannot really stop us doing it via hardware but seems they are sticking to their principles. Do you not have a programable keyboard or mouse? If you don't then get one, if you do then use it to macro until maybe someday in the future they change their stance. They told us yesterday there is no combat macros so don't expect them to change their minds overnight.

Edited March 6, 2012 by System_TOR

[Smitar]

Buy a Decent KB and Mouse.

 

TL;DR - there are other ways to skin this cat.

 

LOL, "no macros!" in the actual game for casual players, but they're marketing an official hardware solution...that's really "sticking to their principles". Personally, I'd call forking out an additional $3-400 a "barrier to entry". Of course, the fanboys won't see it that way.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Smitar

[Galbatorrix]

Sorry but macros don't do that. Apparently so many SWTOR players have no clue what macros do in mmos.

 

 

Have you ever played WOW? People write one button macros that will cast 7 or more abilities based off a priority list. In other words, they can run around in PVP spamming ONE BUTTON where other players are having to actually keep up with their CDs and use strategy.

[Sparklehorse]

LOL, "no macros!" in the actual game for casual players, but they're marketing an official hardware solution...that's really "sticking to their principles". Personally, I'd call forking out an additional $3-400 a "barrier to entry". Of course, the fanboys won't see it that way.

 

You can get a programmable keyboard and mouse for well under 200 dollars.

 

You don't have to have them to play and have fun with the game.

 

You can also use them for other games.

 

In your scenario the barrier to entry would be if the only way you could play the game was with them AND if they ONLY worked for this game.

 

Also Bioware isn't marketing them as a solution, some players have suggested them on a forum. Last I checked there was quite a large difference in those two ideas.

[Pekish]

why when i play soccer i cannot touch the ball with the hands? it would make the game easier... we have hands god gave us...

 

making it easier is not the point

 

it's a game and there are rule

 

Macro are out, accept the rule and enjoy the game.

 

Lot of people on internet lack the basic understanding of "game" "rule" "social behave"

 

What if while i play chess i can double move? I mean why can't I? I probably can think twice as fast as the other guy and can come up with 2 move when he thinks just one?

 

cheating = doing something u actually know how to do or can do that give u an advantage but that is against the rule.

 

macro is a thing u can do/you know how to do and that give u advantage (it's irrelevant if the other person knows how to do it too or can do it too...) but hear it out... it's agaisnt the rule

Edited March 6, 2012 by Pekish

[MrSchmo]

What baffles me, it seems to be the same people saying they need some automation of their abilities, but also complain end game raids are to easy...

[System_TOR]

LOL, "no macros!" in the actual game for casual players, but they're marketing an official hardware solution...that's really "sticking to their principles". Personally, I'd call forking out an additional $3-400 a "barrier to entry". Of course, the fanboys won't see it that way.

 

So your theory is they wont give us macro's so that we go buy the Razer/TOR products so that we can macro.

 

You have a very cynical view, most of the good keyboards these days are macroable, not just the TOR related ones, and they are also far less expensive options out there.