When is jugg dps going to be not just viable, but effective?

[Elyx]

If you're min/maxing like my guild (10/10 nightmare on farm) does you don't bring a jugg to dps over a marauder simply cause of bloodthirst or a sniper cause of the raidshield etc.

 

So there are two options to make it more attractive to bring a jugg dps in a raid for those who min/max (mainly top guilds),

Make jugg more atractive.

Make others less atractive.

 

The big question is....

 

...do you really need to?

 

I've also seen guilds run NM with Jugg DPS and make it as well. Not saying anything whatsoever about your guild, but simply pointing out that you may be bringing a shotgun to a knife fight. just because you prefer overkill doesn't mean that you need it.

 

LotRO dealt with this allot. people who would sideline certain class/spec combos when other guilds were breezing the same content with these supposed 'inferior' specs. Nothing wrong with optimizing, but it doesn't mean a class is broke because it doesn't fit your "optimization".

[Elyx]

Im actually not sure where this argument is going anymore. Some people are yelling Rabbit season, like two guys are yelling Duck season and its going to take me a few minutes to make up some statistics not directly related to jugg dps and somehow make it justify my point....

 

I agree...It's actually sorta funny to watch these threads. without a shred of real evidence, people spam their opinions like they're notes from above. I think it, therefore it is fact...

 

...what a bunch of tripe. at least Bananaface's argument made sense...though i don't agree with him, but its their approach and they stick with it. But everyone else here is spouting tirades and opinions like they have some magical damage meter that no one else has

 

FYI folks...your about as clueless as everyone else. only Bio knows at this point. And they say that the dps SPECS are very close.

 

If your guild is sidelining your jugg, then you need to find another guild. if you think Jugg DPS is sub-par, then by all means...

 

SHOW ME THE DATA. I'd like to see some spreadsheets or dps meter results please. until then, keep the trap clamped. your wasting precious oxygen.

[bananaface]

The big question is....

 

...do you really need to?

 

I've also seen guilds run NM with Jugg DPS and make it as well. Not saying anything whatsoever about your guild, but simply pointing out that you may be bringing a shotgun to a knife fight. just because you prefer overkill doesn't mean that you need it.

 

LotRO dealt with this allot. people who would sideline certain class/spec combos when other guilds were breezing the same content with these supposed 'inferior' specs. Nothing wrong with optimizing, but it doesn't mean a class is broke because it doesn't fit your "optimization".

 

not stating in my post that jugg dps is broke or that you cant bring a jugg dps to a NM raid. what i said was, a raid rather brings another dps class over a jugg for the utility they bring.

jugg dps is fine and all, they just dont add anything to the raid.

[Vid-szhite]

The big question is....

 

...do you really need to?

 

Eventually, we will. BioWare is making NMM ops WAY harder in the future, to the point where we will need optimization. True, we don't need that attractiveness yet, but eventually we will. Fortunately, we still have time.

[tenehuini]

Juggernauts (Guardians) are the ONLY class in warzones I consistently see: doing 5k crits doing 2.5k heal (***) AND doing 20k+ protection. And you would want to buff that?

[KinkyFluff]

Well, if you want to test jugg dps, do what we've done. Find a High HP mob (some world level boss) and get the best dps in your guild. Time how long that dps does 100k-200k damage and then try it with your own jugg and time it. There, you have some synthetic tests that could give you some info.

[Bastus]

I am getting annoyed by people saying that certain classes don't or shouldn't be able to match damage done by a 'pure' spec. If you choose a jugganaut because you like the old school single saber style then that is your choce. And if you want to run that class as dps then again that is your choice. The question is why shouldn't a jugganaut dps spec be considered 'pure' and be treated as one. Yes they have more armour so in that case give the medium or light armour class more mitigation therefore equalling it out. If you are paying for a game and having to choose a class that essentially you don't want to play because you want to dps because the outcome is not equal is rediculous.

 

Agreed. I run my DPS Jug very often for the purpose of DPS. Although I get some strange looks sometimes, I know how to play the class, and always finish HMs or pvp on a good note. This class just seems like an underdog right now. We definitely need more competitive damage for those who are DPS specced, and I get the feeling that when we are finally fixed, we'll be Gods.

 

Some classes heal or dps, we happen to tank or dps. I mean Marauders are only dps, and BH's can heal, yet people seem to prefer Rdps (in my experience anyway) even though BH's aren't "pure dps" like mara's. Jugs aren't "Pure dps" either, but we seem to have the short end of the stick damage wise atm.

 

But I hear that in update 1.2, we will be getting buffed, so I guess thing's will balance out in april. Imo, long ranged classes with heavy armor and the ability to quickly self heal, shouldn't head up the dps charts with those advantages, and Bioware seems to be rectifying the situation. If I have to chase your ***, I should be hitting hard to make up for that. If you can just stand there and shoot someone from long range , I personally don't think you should out-damage a short ranged class of the same tier of gear, and gear type. Seems unfair to me.

[Ezion]

Juggernaut DPS seems about right IMO. I've got a vengeance jug and an arsenal BH. Both seem to be ok DPS. My warrior doesn't feel like it's doing much less damage but without meters you cant really be sure. There are a few fights that favor ranged over melee but nothing a competent player cant handle. My guild has 9/10 NM on farm so it's not like we've struggled.

 

Until they fix sunders stacking, juggernauts bring an extra stack of sunders. Intercede should also be handy on some fights and the ability to offtank when needed. Vengeance tanking is viable for all nightmare modes i've needed it on.

 

Marauder's 'heroism' isn't required for any content and unless I missed something it works out as around 1% DPS increase over it's 5 minute cooldown for one group. It's not as overpowered as people seem to be making out.

 

I think a lot of guilds are going to have issues when the new operation comes out and they suddenly need 2 tanks for some fights. All these potential offtanks that cant get groups now wont be geared and taking two fully-specced and geared tanks will probably end up a waste. Tanks arent really the most popular role anyway so every guild having to find another should be fun. It might not end up that way but the guilds that arent taking the totally viable assasins/powertechs/juggernauts are only hurting themselves in the long run.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Ezion

[bananaface]

if you roll 16man you already have 2 tanks.

and raid utility buffs will matter more with harder and new content.

[Elyx]

I actually think it's ironically humorous in this day and age of MMO's that people can still assume that a "tank" class will just "do" less damage then other classes.

 

WoW proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that tank classes can do as much (and often more overall) then DPS classes...with DPS still pulling ahead in actual DPS instead of damage. They proved that a class doesn't have to be limited by its percieved "role", and for the most part, the populace understood that. Take the current status for Fury warriors, as an example. a great tank, and in their DPS stance one of the best DPS classes in the game.

 

Yet we come over here, and it seems that people are still perfectly happy to sit in dark corners, mumbling chants and waving voodoo sticks above their heads, recanting odd ideas like a tank class can't do as much damage as a DPS class....even if they are DPS specced.

 

now, I can't argue about raid buffs/debuffs as time goes on and content progreses. But that's like saying that you need a 10$ raise now because 5 yrs from now your rent could be too high to afford it with your current income. sure, everyone would like an extra 10$/hr, but just about every company in the world would laugh in your face at a request like that.

 

will we need an advantage that will make us attractive if raid progress to a point where you average Joe raider (38% of the population iirc atm) will need every edge he can get? quite possible. is it needed now? nope. but yet were getting some changes in 1.2, perhaps this will be the edge we need. and if were getting it now instead of when it's actually needed, that will be refreshing. or it may make us look OP.

 

Imagine if we were buffed to the point that we were simply the best DPS class out there. we outshined the best pure DPS class by 10% easily, maybe even 15. imagine if people cried about it, and Bio's response was, "well, we plan on making Op's harder, so in a few patches it will even out." I wonder how well that would go down...

 

Not that Im arguing against change, or that we don't need polish (especially the tank spec...it's really the only one that I can see that is actually hurting for damage atm). But I'll again reiterate that the issue here is not lack of DPS, but lack of intelligent people out there how can actually make a logical deduction about Jugg damage, rather then shut their eyes and listen to innuendo. And this doesn't include everyone, of course. but the intelligent people arent saying juggs are broke...they're saying we need some adjustment.

[Locustone]

Our jugg dps do just fine and are often 2nd or 3rd on the 1v1 fight in hard/nightmare EV right behind our marauder(s) (one always beats out the mercs, sorcs, and snipers--shows if you play the class right you can get up there). Vengeance has great sustained, big crits, and minor bleeds on top of that (most juggs I talk to think their bleeds should be huge and scale when their activated abilities already hit for 3k+).

 

While I will agree that marauders do more damage, that's one class above you; that is meant to be above you by a tad (all classes having viable damage does not equal all classes having equal damage).

 

That makes no sense... A dps build is a dps build, juggs should be at par with marauders if they are dps speced. For those of you who would play the heavy armor card, I would remind you that marauders are far more survivable than dps juggs, hands down. So I really beleive they messed up here. Especially when you go to the powertech class damage vs. the Jugg damage, regardless of tank vs. tank spec or dps vs. dps build the powertech does much more damage.

 

What your saying here is that we should accept we rolled a crappy class and were mislead by the viablility statments and we should just get over it. I call BS, we are paying customers they should fix this.

[Locustone]

Two DPS trees = DPS class.

 

Y'know, because every class in the game IS (can be) a DPS class.

 

Exactly.

[Locustone]

I lol'd throughout this whole thread. Jugg dps is just fine. My jugg is almost always in the top 3 in warzones for dps, and many times, the highest dps. 300k - 400k damage in a huttball warzone, for a warrior, is great.

 

In addition, the operations that decide to take a dps jugg, specifically rage spec, will notice how the trash seems to melt away to the jugg's smashes, while the jugg can still pull great damage on a single target/boss, with 5k+ smash crits, and 3k+ force scream crits, whenever they're off cooldown. (With proper rotation of course).

 

Stack your surge and power, and watch your smashes obliterate

 

While I share your experience in Rage spec in warzones, the only way we get the damage we get is with smash. Take away the aoe damage, say vs. one target and you will see a huge difference in your numbers. Try a WZ and avoid smashing multiple targets and then write down your damage and cry.

[Locustone]

The BM Juggernauts on my server are all DPS, and they ALWAYS top the damage meter by a significant margin.

 

What damage meter are you using again? You don't have to lie to kick it...

[Locustone]

According to a number of posters in this thread, only the Sniper and the Marauder (Empire-side that is) are capable of doing real DPS. All other classes have two specs, and are therefore not allowed to deal as much damage. It's great to see how they base their opinions on nothing more than the argument that classes that can do only one thing should be better than those that can do two things (regardless of the fact that they cannot perform both these roles at the same time).

 

I have to people who support this view these questions: what, pray tell, does it matter if a Juggernaut deals about the same amount of damage as a Marauder? How does this fact change your role?

 

Also, if I'm not mistaken sorcs, BH's and Agents can all be healers, yet they can put out much more damage than most Snipers and Marauders... Lol, the classes are broke, don't fool yourselves.

[Vember]

DPS jugs can do a fair amount of DPS but they shouldn't be even on the same page as a Mara.

 

They're not. Not even close.

 

I have a vengeance jugg and an annihilation marauder. My marauder has:

 

Harder hitting abilities.

Does way more damage.

Self healing.

Dots that hit like trucks.

Waaay better defensive cooldowns.

No CC.

 

My jugg has:

Better resource management

Lesser hitting abilities.

Does less damage.

Weakass dots.

No self healing.

No defensive cooldowns.

No CC.

 

And you don't think there's something wrong with that picture? What does the jugg get, 5% more base mitigation? My marauder is much, much more durable than my jugg in pvp, all the while pumping out sick dps.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Vember

[Locustone]

If they couldn't, why play DPS spec on any class that isn't Marauder and Sniper? Notice that I don't mention Sorcerer or Mercenary - why do people seem to think Healer offspecs don't deserve a "damage tax" but tank offspecs do? Healer-offspecs are far more effective at healing in a pinch than the "tank classes" are at tanking in a pinch, since DPS stats also buff healing, but are useless for tanking.

 

Just because they have no off-spec is no reason to give Mara and Sniper better DPS. You can't DPS and tank at the same time, and some people will never play tank or healer no matter what you do, even if you gave them the option to do so with a respec. If their only option for the best DPS is to play pure DPS classes, that's not exactly freedom to pick the class that speaks to you the most, is it? They'd be penalized for picking a class that CAN tank or heal, but will never be USED to tank or heal.

 

People always complain when their class doesn't have an off-spec that gets them groups faster, ignoring the fact that nobody re-specs just to get a group, because they either lack the gear to use their off-spec, or lack the skill, or lack the cash to respec, or lack the willingness to even play that spec. Even as a Jugg DPS, I don't respec to Tank unless my guild asks specifically for it.

 

This also ignores the fact that Marauders have moves that benefit the entire party or ops group, such as Marauders straight up buffing all healing done to the entire ops group by 15% once per fight, and so on. Marauders may not be tanks, but they have lots of utility. A DPS Jugg may have a tank offspec, but he still isn't a tank unless he's built for it, and to even consider Offtanking, he has to switch to Soresu form, reducing his DPS and rage generation significantly. Why should the Jugg DPS be penalized for having utility that he can't even use at the same time as his DPS? Marauders don't even have to stop DPSing to use their utility moves - most of them even benefit directly from the Marauder continuing to DPS.

 

ALL classes, regardless of having utility specs, should do relatively even DPS. That's the devs' goal. That's pretty much the reality, save a few outliers here and there.

 

I couldn't have said it better myself. I am humping your leg now. Most snipers/maruauders I know chose those classes for either looks or mechanics, not because they thought they deserved to be top dps.

[Locustone]

Yes, that's the sad thing. Jug dps is fine atm but in pvp marauder's that are annihilation spec(almost all) have some of the best defensive cool downs in the game. They have cloak of pain, undying rage (All marauders who are good use it at 20% life and use WZ health med pack to gain 5-6k and have 99% less dmg taken for 5 seconds for the cost of 50% life) and force camo which makes it so they have 100% dmg negation and are able to run away and get health, along with aoe buffs for themselves and others which gives them added speed and a 10-15% damage reduction, 2% self heals on dots which go for around 400 per tick with 200 raid wide ticks on my cousin's PvP rank 65~ marauder and also blood thirst which gives 15% dmg/healing to raid members .

 

What does a jug get as their defensive cool downs? Endure pain which is probably the worst survivability skill in the game if you use it in a pinch and it runs out. As soon as that cd is done, you lose all that health and you get ***** (In PvP) and invincible (only if you spec into it for Immo) and intercede which can be used defensively to run away, to give yourself 20% dmg reduction for 5 seconds and heal you for 8% if you are specced and have the 4 piece dps set bonus for PvP. Oh and taunt/aoe taunt + Guard for spot aoe taunt/guards in pvp which are key in pvp. Some decent survivability cool downs to the "Juggernaut" name would be nice but just having "Plate," or "Heavy" Armor doesn't make up for all the defensive cool downs lost, when you are in your full dps spec.

 

I play both a rank 65 marauder and a 66 PvP Jug and whoever said that the marauder was the hardest dps class to play is full of ****.

 

Wow, dps jugg is fine, because you have high numbers in pvp?? You do realize that hitting 6 people with a 4-6k smash is a big skew of your dps? The aoe damage does nothing for you in a one vs. one situation or in PVE boss fights. Don't misrepresent the class. They can up the damage without increasing smash and you would still not feel overpowered. I hit people repetetively for 5-6k with my sniper, trust me, juggs are underpowered. We all know Ops are even harder hitters and can take people down in a matter of seconds so if you think your damage is at par then you are foolish.

[Locustone]

http://imageshack.us/f/29/screenshot2012030712252.jpg/

 

565 k HYBRID JUG dmg in voidstar solo queue vs bm premade

here you go for all those juggies.

 

ROFL, congrats on all your aoe damage. Subtract the aoe damage and you are probably on the bottom of the list.

[Elyx]

Wow, dps jugg is fine, because you have high numbers in pvp?? You do realize that hitting 6 people with a 4-6k smash is a big skew of your dps? The aoe damage does nothing for you in a one vs. one situation or in PVE boss fights. Don't misrepresent the class. They can up the damage without increasing smash and you would still not feel overpowered. I hit people repetetively for 5-6k with my sniper, trust me, juggs are underpowered. We all know Ops are even harder hitters and can take people down in a matter of seconds so if you think your damage is at par then you are foolish.

 

You

 

Know

 

Jack

 

Squat

 

show me the numbers plx. until then, your talking out your glutes. Like most the posters in here. the sheer ignorance amazes me.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Elyx

[Elyx]

They're not. Not even close.

 

I have a vengeance jugg and an annihilation marauder. My marauder has:

 

Harder hitting abilities.

Does way more damage.

Self healing.

Dots that hit like trucks.

Waaay better defensive cooldowns.

No CC.

 

My jugg has:

Better resource management

Lesser hitting abilities.

Does less damage.

Weakass dots.

No self healing.

No defensive cooldowns.

No CC.

 

And you don't think there's something wrong with that picture? What does the jugg get, 5% more base mitigation? My marauder is much, much more durable than my jugg in pvp, all the while pumping out sick dps.

 

I love all that raw data and timed tests you threw in there. GJ man...I wonder if i list all the extra accessories my car came with that it would make it faster then your car. Or perhaps we'd need to hit the local track and do a 1/4 mile to be sure.

 

Yeah...I think ill wait for the 1/4 mile results. good luck with all those accessories your spamming up there

Edited March 13, 2012 by Elyx

[Locustone]

You

 

Know

 

Jack

 

Squat

 

show me the numbers plx. until then, your talking out your glutes. Like most the posters in here. the sheer ignorance amazes me.

 

I seem to recall that I was speaking about PvP and the damage stated on the end charts people were referencing, but you would know that if you had read the posts. You seem so confident in your position and based on your response I wonder if you have numbers to back that up or you just like to speak out of your glutes? You speak of ignorance, but you should take your own advice and post hard numbers as well. Otherwise, keep your naive thoughts to yourself.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Locustone

[Vember]

I love all that raw data and timed tests you threw in there. GJ man

 

I don't need em, because I play my jugg and my mara concurrently. The difference between the two is night and day. Not to mention, I could solo champion elites and heroics leveling up on my mara that my jugg couldnt' even touch, even in the 40's, not only because the mara killed em faster, but because his defensive capability far outshined that of the jug.

 

Now that I only pvp with both of them, its no contest. The mara not only does far more damage, he is also far more durable. When you're playing both on a regular basis, the difference really stands out.

 

All that being said, I prefer my jugg just because its so much smoother to play.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Vember

[Elyx]

I seem to recall that I was speaking about PvP and the damage stated on the end charts people were referencing, but you would know that if you had read the posts. You seem so confident in your position and based on your response I wonder if you have numbers to back that up or you just like to speak out of your glutes? You speak of ignorance, but you should take your own advice and post hard numbers as well. Otherwise, keep your naive thoughts to yourself.

 

You did mention PvP in reference to another post. but then you went on to say that it doesn't matter in PVE, and then stated the same thing that all the other doom and gloomers are stating. without any Data.

 

And I'm simply getting impatient with all the responses without anything to back them up. If you'll notice most of my threads (hope your reading them in addition to all the other stuff in these threads) you'll notice...time and time again...that I state emphatically that KNOW ONE KNOWS right now except Bio. and I hope everyone has gotten THAT point.

 

But people, time and time again, spam their opinions like it's fact. here's an example :

 

trust me, juggs are underpowered

 

well...I don't trust you. I'm at least honest enough to admit when My own opinion is my own opinion. I've read a few timed tests on the forums, and ill even admit that they aren't fact. but they are far better information then what you stated above. between the timed tests I've seen, and the information Bio has given out, I have little to no reason to believe your statements. I do support your opinion of the PvP misinformation. There are far too many variables associated with it to realistically use damage charts from PvP battles to know how a class functions.

 

but I'm talking about PvE. like what this thread is about. you throw up PvP and PvE in the same statement. your comment about how you "know" dps is low comes right after your comment about how this really pertains to PvE. so If i'm wrong about what you are discussing, then it's not my interpretation. it's how you worded it.

 

At this point, all the spamming about bad jugg DPS is purely anecdotal. And I dare you to prove otherwise, because im RIGHT about that. And I have put the challenge up time and time again to have people show the data they have that backs up their statements. For you benefit, I will find the timed tests here on the forums. But that's not my job It's not my fault the general populace is ignorant. and for some reason they prefer to stay that way. Remember, YOU don't set the standard. Bio does. so your statement contradicts the dev's, which means YOU are the one that needs to prove them wrong.

[Elyx]

I don't need em, because I play my jugg and my mara concurrently. The difference between the two is night and day. Not to mention, I could solo champion elites and heroics leveling up on my mara that my jugg couldnt' even touch, even in the 40's, not only because the mara killed em faster, but because his defensive capability far outshined that of the jug.

 

Now that I only pvp with both of them, its no contest. The mara not only does far more damage, he is also far more durable. When you're playing both on a regular basis, the difference really stands out.

 

All that being said, I prefer my jugg just because its so much smoother to play.

 

interesting...I level both, and I can solo elites and champs on my Jugg too. I distinctly remember one champ that I walked away from with 95% health. he was the same level as me, roughly 38 or 39 iirc. On my Jugg.

 

no offense, but your information is contrived at best. Not throwing away your personal experience, but all this misinformation exists because people continually express their OPINION as FACT...which it is NOT. That's why i commented about your list. It has ZERO impact on overall damage because it is SUBJECTIVE. I will respect your opinion, but I will not let you tout it as fact.

 

here's a fact. Opinions is largely influenced by far too many mis-representational factors to consider it relevant in parsing actual data. how about that accessory?

Edited March 13, 2012 by Elyx