Guild Summit: Mac users better really want it...

[Mythic_MK_II]

Just to let people know:

 

Macs are pc's.

pc is personal computer. A mac is a personal computer.

 

it's just that it has a different manufacturer.

 

on the other hand: I had my Mac because of my education. When I heard about SWTOR and actually wanted to play it, I payed the 120 bucks to get windows to install on my mac.

 

Now that is a hefty price to pay for it but it was worth it. My mac can handle a big deal in the game with all except shadows on max settings. and it is just a MBP 13 inch. The larger versions can handle it all even better (everything max). and it costs (I think) less than a gaming pc. I don't mind that there aren't/barerely are any games for macs. But it would be great if they did port it.

[MoofTheSToof]

I tried to see if anybody else had mentioned Wine wrappers and the progress they've made, but all I could get to were the first and last few pages of this massive, massive thread.

 

Of course it devolved into a Mac Vs. PC flamewar. These things always do.

 

I understand bioware/EA taking the easy way out. Most gamers can't afford Macs and/or can get by with Windows idiosyncrasies in their professional lives so don't bother buying Apple. (Yes, there are other premium PCs, but we don't buy Apples for the hardware. The OS is the key, and if you don't understand why, then there's very little anybody can do for you.)

 

For the rest of us who CAN afford macs and/or rely on them for our professions AND also like to play games, SWTOR is an expensive hobby. I bought a second SSD and a bracket to hang it in my MacBook's optical bay with just so I could buy and install Win7 and play SWTOR - and it works. I can BootCamp into 64bit Win7 and the game plays beautifully... until Windows networking crashes.

 

Often, networking fails on both WiFi and Ethernet at startup and I have to go into network adapters and diagnose both before Windows gets a valid IP from my DHCP server. At STARTUP. Not to mention the wasted time I've had to spend installing anti-virus and weekly security updates for the innumerable holes that Microsoft so thoughtfully left in their operating system. Thankfully, I only use Windows for SWTOR or I'm sure I'd have many, many more horror stories to relate. I've had to use many different flavors of Windows since 3.1 and Win7 is true to it's lineage - just barely tolerable on a good day.

 

Now there are Wine wrappers available for OS X and Linux that are actually working. I've kept my son happily playing Star Trek Online on his Mac Mini with WineSkin for a couple of years, now, so I know that this is a perfectly viable option. The wrapper I've had the best luck with is at portingteam.com, but there are good threads and instructions at WineSkin support forum and CrossOver's site, too.

 

Sadly, they're still a work in progress. There's an issue with the way SWTOR makes massive disc reads and writes that WineSkin doesn't like so less populated and smaller maps are the best. Flashpoints are perfectly playable under OS X in my experience, as are the fleets for hanging out or crew skilling, but heavily textured/modeled areas like Nar Shadaa are very iffy. Some classes have an easier time, too. My 50 sorcerer doesn't seem to tax the OS X game nearly as much as my 28 Marauder. Force Charging on Nar Shadaa can get really weird. So sometimes I still have to BootCamp to play.

 

But it's getting better! And someday I'll be able to joyfully erase Windows off that second SSD and have available it for something useful!

[Lethality]

Mac users are the lesser of the computer users. You knew this when you bought it. Why complain now?

 

So many things I could say, but... I'll just ask.

 

Lesser, how?

[BrunoLogan]

So many things I could say, but... I'll just ask.

 

Lesser, how?

 

Man, you're feeding the wolves. Don't waste your time. Let them say and talk what they will. You, me and lot of other guys/girls already made clear that a Mac version of the game is required. Personally I'm sick of the Mac vs PC war. We should keep this thread and the "Do you support a Mac OS X client in Star Wars the Old Republic?" thread alive so BW understands and perceives our request but we as Mac users should gladly receive the statements of the supporters and ignore the flamers.

Edited March 21, 2012 by BrunoLogan

[Lethality]

Man, you're feeding the wolves. Don't waste your time. Let them say and talk what they will. You, me and lot of other guys/girls already made clear that a Mac version of the game is required. Personally I'm sick of the Mac vs PC war. We should keep this thread and the "Do you support a Mac OS X client in Star Wars the Old Republic?" thread alive so BW understands and perceives our request but we as Mac users should gladly receive the statements of the supporters and ignore the flamers.

 

You're right, and of course I realize all that. But I've been here making the case since October 21, 2008 and overall since 1984. It's principle at this point.

 

Since BioWare won't release at least an official FAQ on the subject, officially stating support behind the idea of future Mac development (not even asking for an official announcement) I feel that with amount of misinformed people with out-of-date understanding of the Mac market, I have to continue helping them understand.

[BrunoLogan]

You're right, and of course I realize all that. But I've been here making the case since October 21, 2008 and overall since 1984. It's principle at this point.

 

Since BioWare won't release at least an official FAQ on the subject, officially stating support behind the idea of future Mac development (not even asking for an official announcement) I feel that with amount of misinformed people with out-of-date understanding of the Mac market, I have to continue helping them understand.

 

I'm with you on the thought that BW should shed some light on this subject. What do they "fear" about this? What are the limitations (be it man power, tech/engine issues or just business related)? The old "We are not doing anything Mac for this game at the moment but maybe we will" answer is not enough as the time goes by. "Maybe" is a bad answer. As the game is getting more stable, they certainly know by now what they want to do about a Mac version of the game. I just would like to see them saying something more clear, be it "No, we are not going to make a Mac version" or "Yes, we're gonna make it but it will take some time".

 

Currently I'm playing the game on my old desktop PC. I could play it on my MBP but bootcamping is a no go. Soon I'll replace my deskotp PC with a Mac and it worries me to have to bootcamp it and spend money on the Windows copy. Pirating Windows is not an option for me but MS Windows price policy makes many people go that way.

 

(edited to fix some typos)

Edited March 21, 2012 by BrunoLogan

[NasherUK]

The problem is Apple are like dictators, they only allow you to do what they say on their OS and want huge royalties for it, so developers just don't bother. The amount of mac gamers is tiny and with apple dipping in to your profits it's just not worth the time or effort.

 

That and you will pay 2x as much for an equivalent spec mac compared to a PC. As gamers want as much performance for their money as possible (and to build their own systems), it's just not attractive.

 

Also if you REALLY want OS/x, do thing the other way around and just build a "hackintosh"

Edited March 21, 2012 by NasherUK

[Apocalypsezero]

The problem is Apple are like dictators, they only allow you to do what they say on their OS and want huge royalties for it, so developers just don't bother. The amount of mac gamers is tiny and with apple dipping in to your profits it's just not worth the time or effort.

 

That and you will pay 2x as much for an equivalent spec mac compared to a PC. As gamers want as much performance for their money as possible (and to build their own systems), it's just not attractive.

 

Also if you REALLY want OS/x, do thing the other way around and just build a "hackintosh"

 

From what I understand, other than being a status symbol (it's been shown in a study women are more likely to date a man with an iPhone than other smartphones), people buy macs for ease of use. I don't know if the majority of mac users would know how to make a "hackintosh", but I could be wrong.

[Lethality]

The problem is Apple are like dictators, they only allow you to do what they say on their OS and want huge royalties for it, so developers just don't bother. The amount of mac gamers is tiny and with apple dipping in to your profits it's just not worth the time or effort.

 

That and you will pay 2x as much for an equivalent spec mac compared to a PC. As gamers want as much performance for their money as possible (and to build their own systems), it's just not attractive.

 

Also if you REALLY want OS/x, do thing the other way around and just build a "hackintosh"

 

You're not following.

 

Apple doesn't sell things based on spec, they sell based on experience. And that is what will matter especially going forward. Hardware is becoming a non-issue, as most hardware is getting to the point where it can do most things, including and especially games.

 

Blizzard talking about taking WoW to iOS, Gameloft taking Order and Chaos (full 3D MMO) from iOS to the Mac (but no Windows version)... the heat is on.

[Lethality]

Here's a great read from Forbes that talks about everything I've been saying over the past weeks in this thread... how times are changing, the Apple dominance is unstoppable. It affects directly why BioWare needs to supper the Mac.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericjackson/2012/03/21/why-apple-will-hit-1650-by-the-end-of-2015/

[Quantum]

You tell me first: What does a PC do that a Mac can't?

 

1. Not get hacked in under 10 seconds.
   
2. Boot to an OS released by an ethical company, without need for additional software (Bootcamp) or natively run the majority of software without a compatibility layer (WINE).
   
3. Save me $2000 on an equivalent build that runs a vastly superior library of software natively just by inserting the disk and clicking "Install".
   
4. Be supported by techs who actually acknowledge virus/malware issues.
   

 

 

That's enough of a list for me, but I can go on about how so much of Apples Operating system is borrowed (read that as stolen) from the Open source community, then patented by Apple and those patents used to sue others for use of similar features in other software in the future. What the heck, I'll do a short list of those as well just for fun.

 

1. App Store - Canocial brought this in with Ubuntu's Software Center.
   
2. The Dock - Taken straight from Arthur OS a predecessor to RISC OS
   
3. GUI - Than Xerox for this one.
   

 

I'd rather see them create a version that runs natively on the largest Linux flavors rather than Macs, at least then they won't be supporting the sleaze that is Apple.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Quantum

[Toxen]

Usually, when I don't like a product, I stop giving that company my money.

 

But that's just me.

[Quantum]

From what I understand, other than being a status symbol (it's been shown in a study women are more likely to date a man with an iPhone than other smartphones), people buy macs for ease of use. I don't know if the majority of mac users would know how to make a "hackintosh", but I could be wrong.

 

 

Well, the hard part is getting around Apple using Boot ROMs. Little chips that contain the boot loader. It fries, you won't be able to boot up your Mac. Since PC's don't have this mystical magical boot chip, you have to get a bit creative.

[Lethality]

1. Not get hacked in under 10 seconds.
   
2. Boot to an OS released by an ethical company, without need for additional software (Bootcamp) or natively run the majority of software without a compatibility layer (WINE).
   
3. Save me $2000 on an equivalent build that runs a vastly superior library of software natively just by inserting the disk and clicking "Install".
   
4. Be supported by techs who actually acknowledge virus/malware issues.
   

 

 

That's enough of a list for me, but I can go on about how so much of Apples Operating system is borrowed (read that as stolen) from the Open source community, then patented by Apple and those patents used to sue others for use of similar features in other software in the future. What the heck, I'll do a short list of those as well just for fun.

 

1. App Store - Canocial brought this in with Ubuntu's Software Center.
   
2. The Dock - Taken straight from Arthur OS a predecessor to RISC OS
   
3. GUI - Than Xerox for this one.
   

 

I'd rather see them create a version that runs natively on the largest Linux flavors rather than Macs, at least then they won't be supporting the sleaze that is Apple.

 

Do you really... really want to start trading security horror stories between Mac and Windows? You seem moderately intelligent, so I'm sure you realize that's a battle that cannot be won by Windows. And most of all, has nothing to do with a reason not to support TOR on Mac OS X.

 

And to your last "point"... Microsoft has Apple to thank for everything they do (or try to do.)

 

The tide is turning, my friend. Microsoft ain't what it used to be.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Lethality

[Toxen]

Microsoft ain't what it used to be.

 

You mean it's getting better?

 

 

See what I did there?

Edited March 25, 2012 by Toxen

[Quantum]

Do you really... really want to start trading security horror stories between Mac and Windows? You seem moderately intelligent, so I'm sure you realize that's a battle that cannot be won by Windows. And most of all, has nothing to do with a reason not to support TOR on Mac OS X.

 

And to your last "point"... Microsoft has Apple to thank for everything they do (or try to do.)

 

The tide is turning, my friend. Microsoft ain't what it used to be.

 

The thing is I simply can't support Apple's business model and ethics, let me explain.

 

If it's not claiming extremely broad patents on technology they took from Open Source, it's having their hardware manufactured in hazardous factories, at least with a PC I can custom build and pick the suppliers for components.

 

I also can't sit back and have a company restrict my access to software, like Apple does, it's already known in the future they hope to make it so any software available for a Mac has to come from the App Store. Just look at Mountain Lion, it will be a App Store only OS, no physical medium available at all. If I wanted to have to rely on the net for all my software I'd buy a Chrome Book.

 

Sure Windows has issues, the majority stemming from it's market share, why would writers of malicious code target 10% of the market when 90% is sitting in front of them, OSX reaps the same benefits as Linux currently in terms of resistance to Virus, and Malware... Obscurity. Neither one is simply worth the time to dip into when a much bigger pot is right in front of you. It's like trying to choose between targeting a Grapefruit vs a Pea. Nothing in the coding is providing that security, Myself I have 2 operating systems, I use Windows 7, and Linux Mint 12 on my box, I could convert to a OSX (and I have used it) much easier than most people since it shares so much with Linux distributions (and it should since it's built on a Unix clone called NeXTSTEP) and understand the strengths and weakness' of all 3 platforms and I have to say OSX simply isn't ready to support gaming globally for many of the same reasons Linux isn't.

 

Apple simply hasn't assisted in bringing some of the core necessities up to date, at least with Direct X, Microsoft has continually improved it, OpenGL on the other hand still lags behind. Also Microsoft has assisted "The Enemy" by contributing code to the Linux Kernel in order to make it a better alternative, while Apple insists on boxing itself in to it own little world of proprietary hardware and largely software.

[Nudge_]

I switched over to a Mac about 18 months ago after spending over 20 years developing for a PC in the corporate arena.

 

Personally I prefer the 'just works' freedom a Mac gives me and the fact its linux based.

 

BUT and this is the best BUT....

 

An apple a day keeps the virus' away

[Shingara]

I switched over to a Mac about 18 months ago after spending over 20 years developing for a PC in the corporate arena.

 

Personally I prefer the 'just works' freedom a Mac gives me and the fact its linux based.

 

BUT and this is the best BUT....

 

An apple a day keeps the virus' away

 

i can see where your coming from but i find a good pc and antivirus is way cheaper then a mac and boot camp, that said i do hope they provide a mac version for you all.

[Tygranir]

I switched over to a Mac about 18 months ago after spending over 20 years developing for a PC in the corporate arena.

 

Personally I prefer the 'just works' freedom a Mac gives me and the fact its linux based.

 

BUT and this is the best BUT....

 

An apple a day keeps the virus' away

 

I still say if you contract a virus, on any system, it is your fault.

 

L2Safeguard your system. The OS only does so much. Stop opening spam mail and clicking pop-ups.

 

And stay off of The Pirate Bay.

 

If you depend on your OS to keep your PC clean, you are doing it wrong.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Tygranir

[Tommot]

I got a mac last week. Boot camp came on it for free and I just had to purchase Windows 7 (which I would have bought either way). SWTOR runs beautifully on it.

[Nudge_]

I still say if you contract a virus, on any system, it is your fault.

 

L2Safeguard your system. The OS only does so much. Stop opening spam mail and clicking pop-ups.

 

And stay off of The Pirate Bay.

 

If you depend on your OS to keep your PC clean, you are doing it wrong.

 

WOW!

 

Thanks for the tips

[Tygranir]

WOW!

 

Thanks for the tips

 

This is a constructive post.

[Nudge_]

This is a constructive post.

 

No more useless than yours to me. Did you actually read my post? Did you see the joke or did you just see virus?

 

Did you see I've developed for 20 years on a PC, do you think I know something about virus' and how to protect myself?

 

[TheBBP]

I still say if you contract a virus, on any system, it is your fault.

 

L2Safeguard your system. The OS only does so much. Stop opening spam mail and clicking pop-ups.

 

And stay off of The Pirate Bay.

 

If you depend on your OS to keep your PC clean, you are doing it wrong.

 

This is no joke. PCs get more viruses because they are 95% of the market. More users = more people to get viruses. So to stake a claim about how safe macs are comparatively is absurd. Viruses, like steroids, are not magical. They take an effort on the user's part to be effective. Every virus I have ever had was because I was attempting to get something for free that I should have paid for.

 

Anyone who regularly gets viruses on a PC will get them on a Mac unless they quit doing the stupid things that bring on viruses.

[Tygranir]

No more useless than yours to me. Did you actually read my post? Did you see the joke or did you just see virus?

 

Did you see I've developed for 20 years on a PC, do you think I know something about virus' and how to protect myself?

 

 

And that gives you cause to be rude? I don't have 20 years of experience, as I am only completing my first degree as of mid may, but I was just saying that fear of viruses is no reason to switch pc platforms.