Guild Summit: Mac users better really want it...

[Apocalypsezero]

Xerox had an idea for a GUI, but Apple developed the idea. Microsoft literally stole the idea from Apple from a product Apple was ready to bring to market. Xerox wasn't. Big difference.

 

Nope. Xerox had a working GUI. The bigwigs at Xerox had no clue what they had. MS and Apple did. They both implemented their own way of how to make it work. Simple extrapolation. Happens all the time with inventions.

[Lethality]

Xerox had developed the user interface in software AND hardware which Apple then stole and released as Lisa. You cannot say MS stole it and Apple didn't because they did the exact same thing.

 

Hell even Sun Microsystems got in on the act.

 

Microsoft had a Mac on campus for almost a year while working on Mac software.

 

Apple didn't have the benefit of seeing anything Xerox did except for a meeting.

 

And let's not forget Apple hired away some of the PARC engineers working on the GUI to work on the Mac. It's Apple that innovated on the idea. Microsoft stole.

 

G'night.

[Lethality]

Nope. Xerox had a working GUI. The bigwigs at Xerox had no clue what they had. MS and Apple did. They both implemented their own way of how to make it work. Simple extrapolation. Happens all the time with inventions.

 

That's what I said. PARC is an R&D lab, they weren't going to bring it to market in a product that they know of.

 

Apple was... and Microsoft copied it from the Mac they had in-house. Fact.

[Apocalypsezero]

That's what I said. PARC is an R&D lab, they weren't going to bring it to market in a product that they know of.

 

Apple was... and Microsoft copied it from the Mac they had in-house. Fact.

 

Nope again.

 

edit: I need to quit clicking on the view post of people I have ignored. I ignored them for a reason.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Apocalypsezero

[Morthis]

Microsoft had a Mac on campus for almost a year while working on Mac software.

 

Apple didn't have the benefit of seeing anything Xerox did except for a meeting.

 

And let's not forget Apple hired away some of the PARC engineers working on the GUI to work on the Mac. It's Apple that innovated on the idea. Microsoft stole.

 

G'night.

 

So what you're saying is, first Mac stole the idea, and managed to make a version of it nobody cared about, then MS stole it, and managed to make a series of OS that would go on to utterly dominate the market for the next 20+ years? What innovations for Apple are we talking about here exactly, because they seem to have innovated themselves into obscurity.

[Tool_of_Society]

Microsoft had a Mac on campus for almost a year while working on Mac software.

 

Apple didn't have the benefit of seeing anything Xerox did except for a meeting.

 

And let's not forget Apple hired away some of the PARC engineers working on the GUI to work on the Mac. It's Apple that innovated on the idea. Microsoft stole.

 

G'night.

You're just providing more evidence that Apple straight up stole at least some of the code by mentioning the hiring of the engineers. Reminds me of BLuehole and Ncsoft..

[Toxen]

Reminds me of BLuehole and Ncsoft..

 

lulz...Bluehole. Funny name

[Wolfeisberg]

Apple had $6 billion dollars in cash. That was an investment by Microsoft to a) keep the DOJ off of their back and b) make money.

 

And it did both for them.

 

Yet Steve Jobs said they were 90 days from going bankrupt

 

Care to show me some proof that they had $6 Billion in cash on hand? Not that I actually expect you to show any proof.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Wolfeisberg

[Toxen]

Anyway, steve jobs is dead and never donated anything

 

Except that he, along with Apple, were the single biggest contributors to the Product Red charity.

[ArkhamNative]

Gah, this thread is a train wreck.

 

Statements of opinion ("I like Macs. I like SWTOR.")

vs.

Abuse and harassment ("Your [sic] stupid for liking MACs.")

 

Sigh.

[Tool_of_Society]

Gah, this thread is a train wreck.

 

Statements of opinion ("I like Macs. I like SWTOR.")

vs.

Abuse and harassment ("Your [sic] stupid for liking MACs.")

 

Sigh.

You see it that way and I see it this way

 

Statements of opinion ("Macs are better then PCs.")

vs.

Statements of facts ("Macs are PCs and use cheap components too.")

[misterME]

So what you're saying is, first Mac stole the idea, and managed to make a version of it nobody cared about, then MS stole it, and managed to make a series of OS that would go on to utterly dominate the market for the next 20+ years? What innovations for Apple are we talking about here exactly, because they seem to have innovated themselves into obscurity.

 

First, "Mac" didn't do anything. Mac is short for Macintosh, a line of computers at Apple.

 

And Apple didn't steal the Xerox GUI. They were invited in and shown what Xerox had done in the GUI space. They weren't bound by NDA. They took the idea of the GUI and built an OS around it, to simplify the experience for the end user. They then gave a prototype to Billy G and MS to develop software for, and ol' Billy literally copied the interface, reversing and flipping a few controls and icons. There is a vast difference between the two...

 

As far as MS making a version that would go on to dominate the market... You do know how that happened, right? It had nothing to do with the quality or like-ability of Windows. It had to do with a very creative and underhanded licensing agreement that Billy hoodwinked PC manufacturers into signing. Companies like HP, Packard Bell, NEC and others were desperate for an OS they could preinstall on their hardware. So they signed an agreement with MS that said that they would pay a license fee for every PC they sold, whether or not it had Windows installed on it. So, if you're HP, and you have to pay a fee for every PC regardless of what OS it had on it, what OS are you going to install? Even if it turns out to be a crap OS with better alternatives on the market...

 

That little trick is what gave MS its OS dominance. It certainly wasn't quality, reliability, usability, or any other "ability". It was tricky licensing. The domination of Windows in the IT sector is because no one could compete; none of the hardware makers would install any other OS because they had to pay for the Windows license anyway. So Business-grade OS companies had to produce their own hardware, and became niche. Same thing in the home space. Apple became niche because they were largely locked out of the mainstream market for a time. And by the time that time was up, they were already far behind Microsoft in market penetration.

 

And that fact that Microsoft has never cared if their OS was thrown on a pile of crap hardware and sold at rock-bottom prices. (eMachines, anyone?)

 

But Apple is gaining. You can believe whatever you'd like; the numbers don't lie.

 

Yes, Windows still dominates the world when it comes to installed-base. And they will for years to come, until they implode under their own weight (which is already starting to happen). But Apple is slowly gaining ground. Apple may never be the market leader; they have no desire to be. They do quite well in their (rapidly-growing) niche. Let Dell make trash PCs for the low end market where there is no money to be made. And Apple will happily continue to produce quality products for those willing to pay for quality, for those who want a better computing experience.

 

Doesn't change the fact that Apple's Macs are the fastest-growing computer segment, and a relatively lucrative one, and any gaming company would be wise to recognize that and cater to it.

[misterME]

You see it that way and I see it this way

 

Statements of opinion ("Macs are better then PCs.")

vs.

Statements of facts ("Macs are PCs and use cheap components too.")

 

It's okay, Tool. We understand. There's only so much room in the real world for just some of us to live comfortably...

 

[BrunoLogan]

Gah, this thread is a train wreck.

 

Statements of opinion ("I like Macs. I like SWTOR.")

vs.

Abuse and harassment ("Your [sic] stupid for liking MACs.")

 

Sigh.

 

^^this

 

Do we really needed to go that way? After so many years discussing Mac vs. PC on forums, tech sites comments and so on, do you really need to bring it here once again?

The purpose of this thread is ONLY, I repeat: ONLY to express the wish and the need for a native OS X client of this great game. Mac users just want to let BW know that such version of the game makes sense. Go fight over your platform choices somewhere else!

[Apocalypsezero]

^^this

 

Do we really needed to go that way? After so many years discussing Mac vs. PC on forums, tech sites comments and so on, do you really need to bring it here once again?

The purpose of this thread is ONLY, I repeat: ONLY to express the wish and the need for a native OS X client of this great game. Mac users just want to let BW know that such version of the game makes sense. Go fight over your platform choices somewhere else!

 

The counter argument is that the OS X is too niche at this time and not cost effective to develop a native client for it, and that there is already an alternative in the use of bootcamp. Of course that doesn't mean that there will never be a native client for mac computers. I think probably the biggest problem is the "got to have it now" sense of attitude that has started to afflict those in developed countries. As for which OS is best? Depends on what your used to using and what you are wanting to do.

[Patrickgf]

Get a pc? The gaming market for macs arnt exactly large...The resources to port it is not worth the effort, especially when there are options out there that work atm. If you bought a mac with the intention of playing games then you knew damn well you'd be purchasing bootcamp as well.

 

Regardless I still say get a damn pc as macs are overpriced garbage.

 

Bootcamp is free it comes with your mac. Macs are a bit pricey, but if they are garbage then Windows is month old garbage that's been rotting in the sun. Also good luck running OSX on a pc. Anything ur pc can do my mac can do better sucka.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Patrickgf

[pangwl]

^^this.....

 

Mac users just want to let BW know that such version of the game makes sense.....

 

To be honest, it really doesn't make any sense. If you're on a Mac running bootcamp, that itself is a solution to play SWTOR isnt it? it really wouldn't make sense for BW to spend money and time to port over to Mac since there's an existing solution already. I doubt if any Mac users would just use bootcamp just to play SWTOR. Even then, that only proves that the particular MAC user is not such an active 'gamer', which kinda beats his own point, if he's gonna use bootcamp or not.

Edited March 13, 2012 by pangwl

[Lethality]

Yet Steve Jobs said they were 90 days from going bankrupt

 

Care to show me some proof that they had $6 Billion in cash on hand? Not that I actually expect you to show any proof.

 

http://investor.apple.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1047469-97-6960&CIK=320193

 

And - Jobs said nothing of the sort.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Lethality

[BrunoLogan]

To be honest, it really doesn't make any sense. If you're on a Mac running bootcamp, that itself is a solution to play SWTOR isnt it? it really wouldn't make sense for BW to spend money and time to port over to Mac since there's an existing solution already. I doubt if any Mac users would just use bootcamp just to play SWTOR. Even then, that only proves that the particular MAC user is not such an active 'gamer', which kinda beats his own point, if he's gonna use bootcamp or not.

 

Actually, SWTOR is the only game I play these days on the computer (I have a PS3 and I play some games there but not as often as I play SWTOR). I would have to use bootcamp just because of this game.

 

If playing a just one game on an active fashion is not being a gamer at all, then I'm not a gamer in the sense you're defining it. Let me remember that what's being requested here is a Mac version of this particular game, not every game that goes to market. If I was an active gamer who plays a lot of different games I would get a PC and I wouldn't be posting here.

 

Today I prefer the way the Mac works and the experience it provides for everything I need. It's a matter of personal taste. I'm not saying Windows is worse. I work with Windows at work everyday and I get the job done. I payed for the game and I pay my monthly subscription. I just think it's not reasonable to have to pay for a Windows copy to play a game. Also you can't assume that just because I have a Mac it doesn't mean I'm rich and I'm free to waste money on additional OS software. You just don't know how hard it was to get money for the computer in the first place. I must assume that the regular Mac user is not a gamer or if he is, he's not going to buy a Mac for gaming but to play a couple of games it might be more usual than you think. Also, it might be of interest of the game developer to reach the wider range of players as possible. Games with strong social features as MMOs are poised to attract not only hardcore gamers but some of more casual players too. Agree or not, that's what I think.

[Luhgnuts]

As with anything, it comes down to market share. MAC simply does not have the market share that makes development/publishing worth while. I think someplace recently, they only have 14% of the PC Market Share.

 

It just isn't economically feasible to create (not port) for Macintosh.

 

What stops games from running on MAC native? It's Apple. Not the developers of PC, because the guts to a MAC are that of a PC, with older hardware.

 

Upset that stuff isn't written for MAC? Complain to the mighty Apple. They're the ones that stifle you. Not the PC industry.

 

It's actually economically more feasible to write for Linux proper, than writing for MAC's.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Luhgnuts

[pangwl]

Actually, SWTOR is the only game I play these days on the computer (I have a PS3 and I play some games there but not as often as I play SWTOR). I would have to use bootcamp just because of this game.

 

If playing a just one game on an active fashion is not being a gamer at all, then I'm not a gamer in the sense you're defining it. Let me remember that what's being requested here is a Mac version of this particular game, not every game that goes to market. If I was an active gamer who plays a lot of different games I would get a PC and I wouldn't be posting here.

 

Today I prefer the way the Mac works and the experience it provides for everything I need. It's a matter of personal taste. I'm not saying Windows is worse. I work with Windows at work everyday and I get the job done. I payed for the game and I pay my monthly subscription. I just think it's not reasonable to have to pay for a Windows copy to play a game. Also you can't assume that just because I have a Mac it doesn't mean I'm rich and I'm free to waste money on additional OS software. You just don't know how hard it was to get money for the computer in the first place. I must assume that the regular Mac user is not a gamer or if he is, he's not going to buy a Mac for gaming but to play a couple of games it might be more usual than you think. Also, it might be of interest of the game developer to reach the wider range of players as possible. Games with strong social features as MMOs are poised to attract not only hardcore gamers but some of more casual players too. Agree or not, that's what I think.

 

I think you may have missed my point. The population of your kind is little, which most will compromised to use bootcamp instead.

[BrunoLogan]

I think you may have missed my point. The population of your kind is little, which most will compromised to use bootcamp instead.

 

Yes, it's much smaller than Windows user population. The point on this thread is purely... democratic, if you want. The majority rules but the minorities rights should also be safeguarded. This is only a minority drawing attention for its existence and asking for a more viable and less expensive solution for the platform they support. Just that. The bad thing I'm seeing here on this thread is a balkanized community arguing about which platform is best instead of supporting itself as whole.

[Lethality]

I think you may have missed my point. The population of your kind is little, which most will compromised to use bootcamp instead.

 

No, it's not little. And I think you are grossly miscalculating the amount of people willing to purchase and install Windows just to play a game.

[Tool_of_Society]

That little trick is what gave MS its OS dominance. It certainly wasn't quality, reliability, usability, or any other "ability". It was tricky licensing. The domination of Windows in the IT sector is because no one could compete; none of the hardware makers would install any other OS because they had to pay for the Windows license anyway. So Business-grade OS companies had to produce their own hardware, and became niche. Same thing in the home space. Apple became niche because they were largely locked out of the mainstream market for a time. And by the time that time was up, they were already far behind Microsoft in market penetration.

That is so hilariously wrong that I don't even know where to begin. It seriously cracks me up that you believe people running mission critical servers are forced into using WIndows software. Reality is Unix is still king and I really don't have the time to elaborate farther then that right now

 

 

EDIT ; Oh and Apple CHOSE to lock themselves out of the market by forcing people to buy their hardware to get their OS. That is something that MS never did and that is the core of their success. Pretend that mean ol Billy hoodwinked millions of people if you want but reality isn't anywhere near that sexy.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tool_of_Society

[Qoojo]

Not every company wants to spend the extra dollars to write a whole new client for niche market. It's your price for picking Mac, and for wanting to be unique snowflakes just like all the other unique snowflakes.