Guild Summit: Mac users better really want it...

[Raansu]

There is so much misinformation in this thread...

 

Here are some hard facts:

 

Malware

 

There are no Mac OS X viruses. There are a few trojans that work under Mac OS X running around, but they all require the user to be fairly stupid and not paying attention to even work. And even when they do, they can't do anything harmful to the OS.

 

Built on a Unix core, Mac OS X simply isn't as vulnerable as the hobbled-together Windows code. And the OS isolates the main parts of the system in such a way that a virus can't do on a Mac what it's designed to: replicate, spread, access hardware, etc.

 

And Macs are becoming safer all the time. New app requirements for Macs include sandboxing, which means even 3rd-party program code can only access hardware and file system functions that it's designed to. And the next OS, Mountain Lion, uses a program called Gatekeeper to avoid even the user-errors that allow trojans to do their thing.

 

I won't claim that the smaller market share of Mac has nothing at all to do with the fewer attempts at Mac malware. But more important than it's smaller marketshare is the fact that it's just damned hard to write malicious Mac code. The system is too smart, and users have to be practically brain-dead, to allow them to function as intended.

 

Ya thats why the mac was hacked in under 20 seconds during a security firm competition. Mac's are just as vulnerable as a PC. There is nothing special about them at all thats "magically" safer. Viruses/Malware exist for mac's, but the simple fact is the market is so small that the effort to attack just isn't there. The PC market is bigger, most don't bother to waste their time with mac's.

[TIKank]

First you say we need to "LOOK TO THE FUTURE!" You tell us that casual games/gaming are the future and hardcore gaming is on it's way out. Then you tell us that Bioware should release TOR for the Mac. Why? A MMO, is by definition, a hardcore game. Maybe they should just focus on something like Mass Effect Adventures for the Iphone.

 

We have to use someone like Dell when comparing prices? Really? REALLY? That's a stretch, even for you. The number one thing a PC has for it is the ability to customize or build it yourself. It's been that way for 20+ years. Sure, the average PC user may not build his own.. but we're talking about gaming. I know VERY few people who buy pre-made gaming rigs. Well, unless they just have tons of cash to spare. It's not about the brand of PC, it's about the brand of the hardware. Oh, and it's actually A LOT easier to get a PC built now than it was, say, 10 years ago. At it's most extreme, PC gaming is a hobby. I spend as much time tweaking/building my PC as my friend does on his RC cars (Which he's spends a TON of cash on.) That aspect won't change for quite awhile.

 

Streamlined hardware IS going to be one of the major factors if/when PC gaming dies. Hardware in things like an Xbox or PS3. Thing is, those are $300-$400... not $1k+. The MAJOR threat to PC gaming is lame copy protect schemes and the fact that most publishers treat the consumer like a criminal.. before he's even done anything. That is a topic for another time.

 

I don't hate the Mac. Not at all. I'd love to see Bioware add Mac support. The more people that can play TOR the better. Hell, if I had the extra cash I'd prob get a Mac to use along with my PC. You're just coming off as a rabid fanboy grasping at straws to win an argument that doesn't even matter.

 

Have fun with your machine, man. I'll have fun with mine.

[Tool_of_Society]

Darwin. WebKit.

 

Are you really going to start some inane open/closed platform beef while citing Microsoft, of all companies?

Yes we could get into a *** for tat with stuff like this. The fact is I can run Win7 on a variety of machine compositions while OSx will only LEGALLY run on a TPM chipped MOBO created by Apple.

[noodlehaus]

Basically you have a catch 22 of epic proportions. Apple's big hope right now is to get their iOS all over the place so as to force developers to start doing iOS related work. Doing so will get the developers one step away from full on OSx development. The next step will be to make iOS and OSx into one operating system package allowing for nearly unprecedented cross platforming. I believe that MS sees this and is trying to keep their dominance by pushing win8 to tablets and eventually phones (windows is already on phones but it has a tiny market share).

 

just an FYI, iOS is a stripped down OS X. it's just running with a different set of drivers, compiled against an ARM processor, and a different UI layer.

 

with regards to mac gaming, it's already picking up, but still not up there when compared to PC gaming. i'm fine with having to run with bootcamp, storage space is cheap nowadays. it's a tiny inconvenience for me. although if they could come up with an OS X native client, it would really be great.

[BrunoLogan]

First and foremost, every player of this game (or at least those who really like the game) should be proud to see their game of choice ported to as many platforms as possible. The bigger number of platforms supported, the bigger the community might get.

 

Instead of turning this into a war of which computer/OS is better, people should stand united to promote a community increase supporting all the paths that might lead to it.

 

Every person here had his/her reasons to buy the system they bought and should not be disrespected because of that. I buy the things that I see fit my purposes and that concerns myself and no one else. I like Macs, I have one and I'm sure it wont be my last one. I also would like to see this game ported to the Mac as I like it to exist for Windows. I don't like to see Windows users fighting someone because he or she bought a Mac as I don't like to see the opposite.

 

So, to finish, I guess it would be better for all of us if we support each other instead of turning this into a war between factions. If you want that, you already have it inside the game.

 

Be well.

Edited March 12, 2012 by BrunoLogan

[Apocalypsezero]

The bigger number of platforms supported, the bigger the community might get.

 

That's the problem, "might". The risk versus reward is what has to be looked at. As this is BW's first MMO it's a better bet to go with what is most popular now. If it succeeds then BW can increase the amount of risk they can play around with.

[BrunoLogan]

That's the problem, "might". The risk versus reward is what has to be looked at. As this is BW's first MMO it's a better bet to go with what is most popular now. If it succeeds then BW can increase the amount of risk they can play around with.

 

As soon as the Hero Engine has support for OpenGL, the risk is small. The team you would need for a Mac port is small. You can check it on WoW credits, just as an example. Their Mac specific developers are very few. Also you have Eve Online which "only" has 300k players and they support the game on Mac. Eve is a far more complex game than SWTOR and the benefit of supporting the Mac on SWTOR would pose by far much of a reward due to the number and type of players it can attract.

Edited March 12, 2012 by BrunoLogan

[lineschmidt]

Mac gaming is doing great, btw... go ask Blizzard or Valve

 

Also, there are more and more console-only titles, not to mention developers hopping on the iOS bandwagon and avoiding Microsoft API decisions for their engines so that they can deploy to more platforms, not less.

 

Facts.

I checked with Valve, not many steam games supports mac natively

 

Are you actually saying IOS is ANY threat to consoles/pc gaming? Oh dear:rolleyes:

 

HTML5 will all but kill the appstore once there is better browser support though you can bet Apple will fight that all the way

 

Apple is on the way down, not up. Cheer up though because you can still switch to the winning side

[Lethality]

I checked with Valve, not many steam games supports mac natively

 

Are you actually saying IOS is ANY threat to consoles/pc gaming? Oh dear:rolleyes:

 

HTML5 will all but kill the appstore once there is better browser support though you can bet Apple will fight that all the way

 

Apple is on the way down, not up. Cheer up though because you can still switch to the winning side

 

You're not even connecting your own dots. Come on man.

 

We already know that Mac users make up 9% or so of ALL Steam gamers, yet there is significantly less games available on Steam for the Mac.

 

Doesn't that tell you something? Sound it out.

 

And yes... iOS (and to a lesser extent the web) is a direct threat to desktop and even console gaming as we know it - developers will seek to standardize to deploy on as many platforms as possible.

 

That's why I keep saying to kiss DirectX goodby for all but the speciality games, and there will be precious few of those.

 

And obviously, you're just trolling if you make an inane comment like "Apple is on the way down". In any context... give it up.

[Wolfeisberg]

You're not even connecting your own dots. Come on man.

 

We already know that Mac users make up 9% or so of ALL Steam gamers, yet there is significantly less games available on Steam for the Mac.

 

Doesn't that tell you something? Sound it out.

 

And yes... iOS (and to a lesser extent the web) is a direct threat to desktop and even console gaming as we know it - developers will seek to standardize to deploy on as many platforms as possible.

 

That's why I keep saying to kiss DirectX goodby for all but the speciality games, and there will be precious few of those.

 

And obviously, you're just trolling if you make an inane comment like "Apple is on the way down". In any context... give it up.

 

Yes, because the developers would rather make another Infinity Blade that made $5 million in sales, instead of another Witcher (PC game) that sold $55 Million, plus The Wither 1 (2007 game) sold another $8 million because of the release of The Witcher 2, or for both console/PC make a Modern Warfare game that sold over $1 Billion in sales. The developers/publishers are not going to abandon a huge lucrative market to concentrate on mobile device games that sell for less then $7 and make only in the single digit Millions, cause not to many mobile device games actually do that. Heck, for how many times I have seen a developer create a mobile phone game on their spare time just shows that they have no problem working on both markets.

 

There is proof that the mobile games market is rising, and good, because those are fun games as well, but there is zero proof that the PC market is anywhere close to going away, or having any kind of decline in the various markets with in the PC gaming.

 

Your problem is that you are taking a rise in one market as a sign of the decline of another market, even though the other market shows no signs of decline but instead shows signs of rising. You have zero proof of the predictions you are making, no information to back it up, and you have refused to back any of it up.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Wolfeisberg

[ArkhamNative]

just an FYI, iOS is a stripped down OS X. it's just running with a different set of drivers, compiled against an ARM processor, and a different UI layer.

Well, partially correct. It's more like a fork, with lots of API developed especially for the touch interface. (For instance, there's no such thing as a multi-touch mouse click.) In fact, Core Animation (easy animated motion & transforms of UI elements) was introduced to Mac OS X developers, and we thought, cool! A year later Apple released the iPhone and admitted they had developed Core Animation for iPhone, then realized it would be useful on Mac OS X, too.

 

Elsewhere...

Instead of turning this into a war of which computer/OS is better, people should stand united to promote a community increase supporting all the paths that might lead to it.

 

Indeed. For BioWare it's a Mac+Windows issue, not Mac vs Windows. No sane person would argue otherwise.

Edited March 12, 2012 by ArkhamNative

[ArkhamNative]

Yes, because the developers would rather make another Infinity Blade that made $5 million in sales, instead of another Witcher (PC game) that sold $55 Million, plus The Wither 1 (2007 game) sold another $8 million because of the release of The Witcher 2, or for both console/PC make a Modern Warfare game that sold over $1 Billion in sales.

 

It's a matter of profit. If a game company can spend only months with a small team to make an iOS game that brings in $5M, that's a significant profit. If a PC game requires 3 years and a large team and brings in $55M, the profit per year will be far less than the sales numbers suggest, and perhaps even less than the iOS game.

 

Likewise, ports to Mac OS X, even DirectX games, also take small teams a matter of months to accomplish. It's been this way even before Intel Macs and a more than tripled Mac market share. Now it's even more profitable, especially with Transgaming's Cider technology. A Mac OS X port need only exceed its small porting cost to be a successful endeavor.

[Wolfeisberg]

It's a matter of profit. If a game company can spend only months with a small team to make an iOS game that brings in $5M, that's a significant profit. If a PC game requires 3 years and a large team and brings in $55M, the profit per year will be far less than the sales numbers suggest, and perhaps even less than the iOS game.

 

Likewise, ports to Mac OS X, even DirectX games, also take small teams a matter of months to accomplish. It's been this way even before Intel Macs and a more than tripled Mac market share. Now it's even more profitable, especially with Transgaming's Cider technology. A Mac OS X port need only exceed its small porting cost to be a successful endeavor.

 

Which is probably why you see lots of developers working on both types of projects. Infinity Blade was made with a $2 Million budget, released Mid Dec 2010 and made $23 Million by the end of December 2011, The Witcher 2 made with an $8 Million dollar budget and made $55 Million in sales in 8 months. Looking through the internet, I'm having a hard time finding out just how many games are actually like Angry Bird and Infinity Blade, it seems like those were the exception rather then the rule, instead I am finding all kinds of articles about various mobile developers making 4-6 figures on their games, and not very many of the Million + in sales, but there are crap ton of mobile games, probably more mobile games being made then PC/Console games being made. But like I said I am having a hard time finding some better information about the mobile games market.

 

Anyways, I still believe that if a developer/publisher deemed it worth while to make a Mac OS version of a game, they would, but there is something there that is stopping the majority of them from doing it. I have nothing against Mac gaming, but a Mac computer does not come anywhere close to fulfill my needs when it comes to gaming, and that would be true for the vast majority of high end computer gamers (High end meaning games like Skyrim, Deus ex, The Witcher 2, First Person Shooter, ect)

 

I just don't buy Lethality belief that high end gaming (Console/PC) is going to practically disappear, the high end gaming is way to lucrative for that to happen, and it shows no signs of ever going away, especially PC gaming. Lethality actually needs to start showing some proof of that, I know I have showed proof and he always ignored it, and when it comes to his proof he blatantly refuses to show any.

[Lethality]

 

I just don't buy Lethality belief that high end gaming (Console/PC) is going to practically disappear, the high end gaming is way to lucrative for that to happen, and it shows no signs of ever going away, especially PC gaming. Lethality actually needs to start showing some proof of that, I know I have showed proof and he always ignored it, and when it comes to his proof he blatantly refuses to show any.

 

I'm not saying it's going to happen overnight.

 

But all of the indicators of standardization and deployment are there. Developers will forgo using proprietary systems and technology and standardize on more open toolsets (even if it's a small compromise) so they can deploy on more platforms. This is matter of fact.

 

And has basically ANY hardware is more than powerful enough to play most games these days, tech won't be an issue... again very few developers will be designing for the very few high-end PC gamers and PC rigs that are out there.

 

It will go from being special to being the exception, and you'll see less support for it, and less reason to be there.

[Morthis]

And has basically ANY hardware is more than powerful enough to play most games these days, tech won't be an issue... again very few developers will be designing for the very few high-end PC gamers and PC rigs that are out there.

 

This is just a flat out lie. You keep using games like Angry Birds as your baseline when the people you are arguing against are quite clearly talking about far more graphically intense games. As computer performance gets pushed upwards, so do system requirements. We see a trend of ever increasing system requirements for any game that isn't an MMO trying to copy WoW's success.

 

Then you come along, with absolutely no facts, evidence, or credibility, to tell us that it's actually heading in the opposite direction. You talk about this as if you're an expert, when you have already said you are a developer and have been an Apple fan since 1984. So now I can draw two conclusions.

 

Option one is that you really are an expert. You're the only one who can see the change while other experts predict the exact opposite of you, and you're also capable of separating yourself from your clear Apple bias while making this analysis. You decide not to provide evidence or facts, not because you don't have them, but because providing said facts is too much work while repeatedly posting the same absurd claims for days on end in the same post is not.

 

Or we could go with option two. You're an Apple fanboy to the extreme. You've worshipped them since 1984 and treat owning Apple products as a lifestyle. You dislike that people make all these claims that make the company you worship or the "lifestyle" it creates still isn't doing all that great in the market in question (PC gaming, or really PC in general). So you start making absurd claims, over and over, while ignoring all reality checks or any evidence contradicting you, in hopes that you can "win" the argument through sheer persistence. If you simply keep posting the same stuff over and over ad infinitum, eventually everybody else will give up, or the thread will simply get locked, without you ever having to give ground. You'd argue black is white if Apple said it was.

[Lethality]

This is just a flat out lie. You keep using games like Angry Birds as your baseline when the people you are arguing against are quite clearly talking about far more graphically intense games. As computer performance gets pushed upwards, so do system requirements. We see a trend of ever increasing system requirements for any game that isn't an MMO trying to copy WoW's success.

 

The thing that is pushing system requirements is games. Period.

 

And developers already want to take advantage of more systems and are focusing heavily on accessibility. Just like we've come to compromise the quality of our video signal with compression, and the quality of audio with compression, so too will we accept games that are not "pristine" but instead, accessible, fun and convenient - whether on mobile, tablet or desktop.

 

The market for high-end bleeding edge games with similar system requirements is going to be smaller and smaller as developers realize they can make more money - and have just as fun of a game - by deploying on MANY platforms, not just one - and even within that one a limited set of potential customers.

 

The popularity of open standards and mobile OS paradigms is pushing the developers to eschew proprietary frameworks from holding them back from deploying elsewhere. Again, it won't happen overnight, but it's obvious the trend, especially when you look at other industries and in fact the trend for the technology layer itself to all but disappear for the consumer.

 

And yes, you can take my views as that of an expert.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Lethality

[Kennkra]

h8qe series $1928

2nd Generation Intel® Core i7-3820 processor [3.6GHz, 15MB Shared Cache]

12GB DDR3-1600MHz SDRAM [4 DIMMs]

2TB 7200 rpm SATA hard drive

3GB AMD Radeon HD 7950 [Dual Bracket, DVI, HDMI, 2x mini-DP]

HP 2711x 27-inch LED Monitors

 

Compared to IMac $2000

 

 

3.1GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i5

4GB (two 2GB) memory DDR3-1333Mhz

1TB hard drive1

AMD Radeon HD 6970M with 1GB

27 inch monitor

 

 

THis.

 

The frist build is like 10 times the mac. and the cost its the same

[Wolfeisberg]

 

And yes, you can take my views as that of an expert.

 

First Expert I have ever seen that can't back up anything they say with hard facts and data, nor has any verifiable credentials to prove they are an expert.

 

Nobody in this thread would consider you an expert, not even the other Mac fans in this thread would since none of them would even show any kind of agreement with your views.

 

Those are your views and your views alone, the fact and data out there prove that you are done.

[Lethality]

First Expert I have ever seen that can't back up anything they say with hard facts and data, nor has any verifiable credentials to prove they are an expert.

 

Nobody in this thread would consider you an expert, not even the other Mac fans in this thread would since none of them would even show any kind of agreement with your views.

 

Those are your views and your views alone, the fact and data out there prove that you are done.

 

The data proves all of my points specifically. Have at it.

[Morthis]

And yes, you can take my views as that of an expert.

 

You can take my opinions as being the ultimate authority on this matter and I say you're wrong. All the facts are on Google, you're just not smart enough to understand them so I really can't be bothered with the trivialities of proving you wrong.

[InnateOne]

"That big company" didn't launch with Mac support either. It didn't add it until a little bit later.

 

Fact of the matter is this - Macs are not optimized for gaming, so it's hard to optimize a game for it. On top of that fact is another reason - Mac users make up at most 5% of the total gaming population in any game.

 

Why do you cater to the 5% instead of fixing and polishing what the 95% need?

 

That big company has always launched with mac support... even the first pc games they released would release on both platforms...

[Lethality]

You can take my opinions as being the ultimate authority on this matter and I say you're wrong. All the facts are on Google, you're just not smart enough to understand them so I really can't be bothered with the trivialities of proving you wrong.

 

Everything I've said about the Mac market, and design/development trends, and market share, and EVERYTHING that supports this game being on the Mac, is factual. It's incumbent upon YOU if you want more details, because I've provided them all for 3+ years.

 

And I'm not about to do it again for a newcomer to the discussion who's grossly misinformed.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Lethality

[DarkSamink]

Cause it's gonna cost ya. Yes, Bootcamp does allow you to run Windows programs. That's how I play the game...and i spent an extra $120 just for the privilege.

 

Right now a large number of players use Macs running Bootcamp, and they spent $100-$180 for the chance to play this game.

 

Some of us really love this game. We'd love to get some of our friends and family members to play...but they use Macs to.

 

Every time you say, as Daniel Erickson did during the Guild Summit Livestream, that "Bootcamp works just fine," while discussing making this game accessible to as many systems as possible is "you bought an expensive computer that can run this game like a champ....clearly you can afford another $100, and therefore you are not a priority market for us. On the other hand, letting your grandmother run it on her 10 year old PC is an important demographic."

 

I realize that creating a client for another system is harder than optimization for one system, but being so dismissive of a decent chunk of the population is not helpful, nor does it engender goodwill in the customers who did pay an extra $100-$180 just to play your game.

 

There is another MMO company out there (you may have heard of them...they dominate the industry) who has done near simultaneous releases since 1996 with the second of the franchise that launched the most successful MMO ever...and that MMO was also launched for both Windows and Mac simultaneously.

 

I understand if your answer is "not soon." It's a technical hurdle and you didn't build for it from the start (though you probably should have). However, saying "if you want to play it, go drop an extra hundred bucks for you, your spouse, and everyone else you know who you want to get into the game and happens to be Mac people" is quite insulting to hear.

 

 

Easy answer.... Macs aren't used for gaming. There ya go

 

Reason why? About 75% of people that buy a Mac, will not use it for video games. Its either business, music, or school. If u want a computer that runs games, buy a pc. I have a Macbook Pro for school and a desktop pc for games. Not that hard. And no I am not rich. Its called working for the money to pay for the stuff and driving a POS car while doing it.

Edited March 12, 2012 by DarkSamink

[Lethality]

Easy answer.... Macs aren't used for gaming. There ya go

 

Ah but they are.

[DarkSamink]

Ah but they are.

 

I have edited my post to explain in detail why MOST ppl don't use macs for games