Guild Summit: Mac users better really want it...

[Lethality]

how many of the 10% that use apple are gamers and not just graphic or multi media professionals

 

How many Windows users are gamers and not just secretaries or clerks at the auto parts counter?

[BrunoLogan]

You attempt to program 19 GB's of info into the half baked Mac OS programming language and release it without nearly doubling the cost of the entire project and increasing the release time by 1/3.

 

By now you should know that 19GB are game assets (textures, maps, sound, music) and not game code. As soon as the Hero Engine supports OpenGL, the upper layers of the game don't need extensive code conversion to run on the Mac. The bigger changes would be on the launcher because they would have to make a new Cocoa wrapper for it in order to run on the Mac.

[Lasani]

so what your saying is BW should program there game for 10% market share for apple users because the other guy does. it comes down to cost and how many of the 10% that use apple are gamers and not just graphic or multi media professionals

 

there is nothing wrong with Mac support ? is there ?

 

WOW has mac support , why can't Bioware support it ?

[DarthTHC]

So you overpay for your computers, frequently by 2x counting price-performance, and then you complain about paying a bit more because you bought a niche computer knowing it's not widely supported by the software development community?

 

There's a word for that, which is typically associated with Apple... just can't recall it...

[DarthTHC]

Trust me after my 1 month free subscription I will not play this game until they release Mac version of this game.

 

You knew (or should have known; it was published) that the game didn't support Mac directly when you bought it.

 

Why did you buy it?

[Lasani]

So you overpay for your computers, frequently by 2x counting price-performance, and then you complain about paying a bit more because you bought a niche computer knowing it's not widely supported by the software development community?

 

There's a word for that, which is typically associated with Apple... just can't recall it...

 

not sure if too dumb or trolling.

 

If you don't own mac than go to PC topics, this place is not for you guys coming in here telling Mac users that how they should spend their money,

 

It's our money , our choice, not yours.

[DarthTHC]

not sure if too dumb or trolling.

 

If you don't own mac than go to PC topics, this place is not for you guys coming in here telling Mac users that how they should spend their money,

 

It's our money , our choice, not yours.

 

Which is really my point.

 

You made the choice to pay for the Mac knowing that it gets far less support from the software development community than does PC.

 

You are making the choice to not use (pay for) Bootstrap, even though you know the game works just fine under it.

 

In both cases, it is your choice. If you're making the choice, why are you complaining?

 

BTW, I do own a Mac so I guess I get to stay?

Edited March 9, 2012 by DarthTHC

[Toxen]

Well, since SWTOR works on WINE again, I guess we can just use that.

[ThiborF]

not sure if too dumb or trolling.

 

If you don't own mac than go to PC topics, this place is not for you guys coming in here telling Mac users that how they should spend their money,

 

It's our money , our choice, not yours.

 

And you chose to buy a machine that while spec-wise is capable of running games, the graphics instruction set supported is NOT widely adopted by many game developers.

 

It's like you bought a Ford Fusion and complaining you cannot do 160mph in it on the autobahn.

 

Now you're faced with another choice, Bootcamp/wine or don't play the game.

 

Until Mac OS holds a substantial market share of people playing serious games, many developers are going to choose not to allocate resources to develop for it.

[BrunoLogan]

Well, since SWTOR works on WINE again, I guess we can just use that.

 

It does?

[Lasani]

Which is really my point.

 

You made the choice to pay for the Mac knowing that it gets far less support from the software development community than does PC.

 

You are making the choice to not use (pay for) Bootstrap, even though you know the game works just fine under it.

 

In both cases, it is your choice. If you're making the choice, why are you complaining?

 

BTW, I do own a Mac so I guess I get to stay?

 

 

I am also paying $60 for the game + $15 per month and in the end I am getting a crappy port from EA....

 

I am paying EA not Apple to get the game support.

 

 

Don't you think they should support all devices instead of focusing on Windows only ?

[zaltanus]

I'm noticing a pattern with BW. Think about it- PCs (majority) are like sorcs. Macs (minority) are like operatives. So, don't expect anything for a mac any time soon. When it does come out, it will most likely somehow give all PCs a 300% efficiency buff while making your mac crash every 20 seconds. Wine/Bootcamp it is! Edited March 9, 2012 by zaltanus

[Lasani]

I'm noticing a pattern with BW. Think about it- PCs (majority) are like sorcs. Macs (minority) are like operatives. So, don't expect anything for a mac any time soon. When it does come out, it will most likely somehow give all PCs a 300% efficiency buff while making your mac crash every 20 seconds. Wine/Bootcamp it is!

 

It's strange cuz Mass Effect 3 runs pretty great for me.

[DarthTHC]

I am also paying $60 for the game + $15 per month and in the end I am getting a crappy port from EA....

 

I am paying EA not Apple to get the game support.

 

 

Don't you think they should support all devices instead of focusing on Windows only ?

 

As a consumer, I think they should be up-front about which platform(s) they support so I can make an informed buying decision. They are.

 

As a shareholder, I think they should do whatever they believe will be profitable and avoid doing things that will result in a loss. Again, they are.

[Lasani]

As a consumer, I think they should be up-front about which platform(s) they support so I can make an informed buying decision. They are.

 

As a shareholder, I think they should do whatever they believe will be profitable and avoid doing things that will result in a loss. Again, they are.

 

I don't really see a point for them to dis-satisfy their customers for profit.

 

Currently EA support chat is the most terrible. If you ask them any question they will act like they want to get rid of you.

 

Their software support for multi platform - multi hardware support is currently really poor.

 

Seeing people with GTX nvidia cards not being able to run this game smoothly.

 

If they keep on working like this I don't think they will last long.

 

It is like they are following Activision footpath. And in fact Activision is trying to improve themselves but I am not seeing any improvement from EA side

 

 

As a customer this is my view-point.

[CecilTellyn]

I am also paying $60 for the game + $15 per month and in the end I am getting a crappy port from EA....

 

I am paying EA not Apple to get the game support.

 

 

Don't you think they should support all devices instead of focusing on Windows only ?

 

That makes no sense. You KNEW it was Windows only when you bought it. They didn't hide that fact from you. You don't buy a Windows only product and expect it to run on a Mac. You just... don't. There's really no excuse to complain about a "crappy port" when you KNEW it was a "crappy port" in the first place.

 

While I think it would be NICE if it could run on all platforms, as a programmer myself, I know that is not always an option and, indeed, can be VERY time consuming to do.

[Lasani]

That makes no sense. You KNEW it was Windows only when you bought it. They didn't hide that fact from you. You don't buy a Windows only product and expect it to run on a Mac. You just... don't. There's really no excuse to complain about a "crappy port" when you KNEW it was a "crappy port" in the first place.

 

While I think it would be NICE if it could run on all platforms, as a programmer myself, I know that is not always an option and, indeed, can be VERY time consuming to do.

 

That is not what I was saying

 

I have installed windows 7 64 bit on my iMac and still getting low FPS.

 

So basically I am not on Mac OSx I am on PC and they are suppose to give good support for Windows product, aye ?

[DarthTHC]

I don't really see a point for them to dis-satisfy their customers for profit.

 

Currently EA support chat is the most terrible. If you ask them any question they will act like they want to get rid of you.

 

Their software support for multi platform - multi hardware support is currently really poor.

 

Seeing people with GTX nvidia cards not being able to run this game smoothly.

 

If they keep on working like this I don't think they will last long.

 

It is like they are following Activision footpath. And in fact Activision is trying to improve themselves but I am not seeing any improvement from EA side

 

 

As a customer this is my view-point.

 

I don't think they're trying or want to dis-satisfy anyone with the Mac thing. They're prioritizing engineering effort.

 

I've heard their phone support is pretty bad, bad enough that I've avoided doing some things that I would like to do simply because I might eventually wind up needing to use it.

 

I disagree with the GTX thing. I have a GTX 570 and get great performance. (Though I don't PvP and I've heard a lot of issues are there.)

 

I have my share of concerns.

 

I'm concerned that server transfers and LFG will be too little, too late for too many people on low-population servers.

 

I'm concerned that each patch seems to have the type of quality issues that experienced MMO producers (read: Blizzard) simply don't experience. But at the same time, I see BioWare taking steps to address that.

 

I'm concerned about quality issues I see with ancillary products like the smartphone authenticators, and that those problems have existed for months now without a single statement of acknowledgement let alone a commitment and timeframe to address them.

 

But I have a really hard time getting concerned about native support for Mac when they've clearly stated beginning years ago that it wouldn't be there, and continue to state it won't be there any time soon, and the game apparently works with Bootstrap and possibly (from this or another similar thread) WINE.

[Lasani]

I don't think they're trying or want to dis-satisfy anyone with the Mac thing. They're prioritizing engineering effort.

 

I've heard their phone support is pretty bad, bad enough that I've avoided doing some things that I would like to do simply because I might eventually wind up needing to use it.

 

I disagree with the GTX thing. I have a GTX 570 and get great performance. (Though I don't PvP and I've heard a lot of issues are there.)

 

I have my share of concerns.

 

I'm concerned that server transfers and LFG will be too little, too late for too many people on low-population servers.

 

I'm concerned that each patch seems to have the type of quality issues that experienced MMO producers (read: Blizzard) simply don't experience. But at the same time, I see BioWare taking steps to address that.

 

I'm concerned about quality issues I see with ancillary products like the smartphone authenticators, and that those problems have existed for months now without a single statement of acknowledgement let alone a commitment and timeframe to address them.

 

But I have a really hard time getting concerned about native support for Mac when they've clearly stated beginning years ago that it wouldn't be there, and continue to state it won't be there any time soon, and the game apparently works with Bootstrap and possibly (from this or another similar thread) WINE.

 

Well bro, I am using Windows 7 , even in Windows 7 I am not getting good performance, I am pretty sure it is engines fault....

 

I have heard a lot of problems with GTX cards and not sure when I read that a guy with GTX card is unable to even play the game on his normal pc. The specs were pretty decent imo.

 

Even if they can't support Mac directly , they can at least do support for Windows boot camped from mac.

[DarthTHC]

Well bro, I am using Windows 7 , even in Windows 7 I am not getting good performance, I am pretty sure it is engines fault....

 

I have heard a lot of problems with GTX cards and not sure when I read that a guy with GTX card is unable to even play the game on his normal pc. The specs were pretty decent imo.

 

Even if they can't support Mac directly , they can at least do support for Windows boot camped from mac.

 

key performance pieces to my rig: Windows 7/64 bit, i7 2500k not overclocked, 16GB RAM, GTX 570, SSD (with OS & game)

 

Everything turned all the way up in graphics options.

 

110FPS out in the world, in phases, in flashpoints

 

60-ish FPS on fleet.

 

Like I said, I don't PvP and that's where I heard many of the issues were. Just one player's experience.

 

I agree with your last statement. It would be nice if they'd provide reasonable, official support for running SWTOR under windows emulation on Mac.

[Toxen]

It does?

 

indeed

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=29168

The patch labeled: Proof of concept for KUSER_SHARED_DATA updates by Carsten Juttner

[JacenHallis]

Let's see the AAA video games you've worked on, then you can tell us how this is similar to making Sudoku for iPad.

Sudoku? Really? That's your big go-to iPad game? That's like saying, "How is making a AAA game similar to making Yoda Stories for PC?"

 

iPad games can be a lot more complex than people are giving them credit for. Developers like Namco, Epic and even EA are making games for the device now, and many times not just as offshoots of their existing IPs. I guess I can't really blame you for not knowing about them, as I had no idea they existed either until I saw them demonstrated during the iPad keynote the other day.

 

http://www.apple.com/ipad/from-the-app-store/games.html

 

There's a lot more than sudoku available in the app store now.

[Tool_of_Society]

Have you the slightest idea of how many Mac users are perfectly able to use a PC and used to built their PC themselves ? I worked 15 years in hybrid (Mac & PC) environments as an IT manager, and used to built my PCs for nearly as long. Building a PC is just dumb easy.

Do you? Since you asked surely you have data on that subject so I'd like at least 2 detailed citations of peer reviewed studies to backup any number you produce. I'm currently working in a hybrid environment and those using macs tend to be a lot less technical then the PC users. Frankly even the PC users are barely technical though so it's all relative.

 

 

Recognizing why Macs last longer than any self-assembled PC and what hardware+software synergy imply requires juste a little more brain..

 

Your assertion has absolutely no basis in facts. My 386sx is still running fine and I even had an 8086 I threw out before a major move. I personally have the problem that my PCs last too long so I always end up trashing perfectly working PCs because they are so outdated they aren't useful to me or anyone I could give them to (who's going to take a p3-500 that I can't get rid of but is in top shape and sitting in my spare bedroom?). Don't try to pretend macs don't suffer from obsolescence because you should know as well as anyone that macs ARE PCs. There's no magical hardware difference. Like I said earlier I've seen several macs in for repair and they were using TAIWANESE CAPS!! I refuse to use components that have such crappy parts in them. I stick to Japanese caps because history has proven them to be much more reliable. For more information check out the "Capacitor plague" on wikipedia or somewhere. Anyone that is serious about quality wouldn't be using Taiwanese caps it's as simple as that. THat's not even getting into the components such as their choice of voltage regulators and mosfets...

 

 

And ? Your hackintosh use the same OS than a Mac while running worse and lasting less ? Great. People using hackintoshes are doing so because they want cheap machines. And cheap they are. Same as self-built rigs : crappy integration, small lifespan, possibly buggy as hell.

Running worse? Dude your mac is a PC.. repeat after me your mac IS a PC deal with it. Apple abandoned any true unique hardware difference years ago when they changed to an intel platform. The only real difference between a mac and a PC is the TPM chip that allows a mac to use OSx without a "hack". I build computers on the side and aside from a couple graphics card issues I've not had to replace any major component outside of for performance improvements in the 5 years I've been doing it for others. I've personally been building my own units for 20 years now. My living room currently has 3 machines I self built with the newest being almost 3 years old yet I'm still playing the latest games on it and it's CPU and FSB have been OCed(1600mhz fsb etc) the entire time with standard air cooling. Based on the results you're stating it's blatantly obvious you're too incompetent to build your own system and you would be better off allowing others to do for you.

 

 

I was about PCs. Same core components, differences in reliability. Any IT manager knows that 2 machines with the same components on the paper will behave differently.

Same with Macs and self-builf & cheap PCs. Same core components but not the same quality.

See above rant about poor component quality in mac parts. The differences in reliability come out of the circuit board level and it's painfully obvious you wouldn't know a diode from a resistor..

 

 

On to the second macboi

 

The gamer market is insignificant to the mainstream market going forward... please understand that, the sooner you accept it the easier this will be.

We've been there from the earliest days of computing. Seriously gaming was just an afterthought of a use for computers that came up long after the mainstream uses had been explored. What cracks me up is the mainstream market is umm the "MAINSTREAM" market for a reason and I suggest you look up the word mainstream before continuing with this post. Are you really going to claim the universities and the government that built and funded the earliest computers were just doing it so they could play games?

 

I think you're underestimating the power of games like farmville and angry birds. Believe it or not but those are considered games and people playing them are GAMERS. IT's these truly casual gamers that are going to be a driving force in the future. Hardcore gamers are still going to continue to fund the development of high end gear with their purchases.

 

 

It's because you're wearing the same blinders as everyone else. I am telling you a change is coming thanks to the iOS. It won't be overnight, but "porting to Windows" will become the new norm. Sorry if that hurts. The consoles were already doing in PC gaming, but this is the nail in the coffin.

Oh yes this lovely mindset where you know you're right and all the experts and facts are wrong because you could never possible be making a mistake. You're so bought into ideology that facts and reality have no place in your existence as a result it's quite painful to read your completely misguided posts.

 

The Xbox is the only worthwhile product to ever come out of Microsoft... it's almost like it was done by a different company. The Xbox live service, etc was well ahead of it's time. Of course their enterprise stuff and office suite is also well done, but again - they were leaders in these spaces.

Haha you have now converted into total Apple fanboi at this point. Like I said before I don't like Microsoft but the reality is they are utterly DOMINATING all other OSes and browsers yet you point to the xbox as the only worthwhile product of Microsoft. The cognitive dissonance that is going on in this thread is utterly amazing.

 

 

Interesting... let's look at growth percentages in that subset. There are hundreds of stories like this everywhere, many PC builders shipments have declined, but Apple has grown and grown like there's no tomorrow:

Yeah they doubled in sales from 5% to 10% of the market.. Much like the hooplah over China's AMAZING economic growth the reality is they have a VERYYY long way to go before they catch up to the USA just like APPLe trying to catch up to the wintel market. BTW macs are PCs I highly suggest you look up the definition of a Personal Computer someday.

 

As for the PC market in general? Well sales are not declining overall and screaming that it is while closing your eyes and covering your ears isn't going to make it so. Even your own links despite selective use of numbers show a growing marketplace for wintels despite the worst economic downturn since the great depression. Seriously the whole world's market has been disrupted by the economic downturn and computer component suppliers have been severely affected by natural disasters. Those two combined should of been enough to completely destroy any growth and it didn't. The biggest problem I'm having right now is that hard drive prices are still over double what they were last year cause of the flooding. Once supply gets back into line and the prices get back where they should be everything will be gravy again

Edited March 9, 2012 by Tool_of_Society

[Tool_of_Society]

Sudoku? Really? That's your big go-to iPad game? That's like saying, "How is making a AAA game similar to making Yoda Stories for PC?"

 

iPad games can be a lot more complex than people are giving them credit for. Developers like Namco, Epic and even EA are making games for the device now, and many times not just as offshoots of their existing IPs. I guess I can't really blame you for not knowing about them, as I had no idea they existed either until I saw them demonstrated during the iPad keynote the other day.

 

http://www.apple.com/ipad/from-the-app-store/games.html

 

There's a lot more than sudoku available in the app store now.

Oh no doubt the Ipad is quite capable of doing something much more intensive then sudoku. The major limiting factor on performance is battery power and heat dissipation. So it'll take a little while for game developers to get the most out of the Ipad just for that reason. You don't just jump on a new platform and have all the optimizations and tricks figured out from the get go.

[Lasani]

Do you? Since you asked surely you have data on that subject so I'd like at least 2 detailed citations of peer reviewed studies to backup any number you produce. I'm currently working in a hybrid environment and those using macs tend to be a lot less technical then the PC users. Frankly even the PC users are barely technical though so it's all relative.

 

 

 

 

Your assertion has absolutely no basis in facts. My 386sx is still running fine and I even had an 8086 I threw out before a major move. I personally have the problem that my PCs last too long so I always end up trashing perfectly working PCs because they are so outdated they aren't useful to me or anyone I could give them to (who's going to take a p3-500 that I can't get rid of but is in top shape and sitting in my spare bedroom?). Don't try to pretend macs don't suffer from obsolescence because you should know as well as anyone that macs ARE PCs. There's no magical hardware difference. Like I said earlier I've seen several macs in for repair and they were using TAIWANESE CAPS!! I refuse to use components that have such crappy parts in them. I stick to Japanese caps because history has proven them to be much more reliable. For more information check out the "Capacitor plague" on wikipedia or somewhere. Anyone that is serious about quality wouldn't be using Taiwanese caps it's as simple as that. THat's not even getting into the components such as their choice of voltage regulators and mosfets...

 

 

 

Running worse? Dude your mac is a PC.. repeat after me your mac IS a PC deal with it. Apple abandoned any true unique hardware difference years ago when they changed to an intel platform. The only real difference between a mac and a PC is the TPM chip that allows a mac to use OSx without a "hack". I build computers on the side and aside from a couple graphics card issues I've not had to replace any major component outside of for performance improvements in the 5 years I've been doing it for others. I've personally been building my own units for 20 years now. My living room currently has 3 machines I self built with the newest being almost 3 years old yet I'm still playing the latest games on it and it's CPU and FSB have been OCed(1600mhz fsb etc) the entire time with standard air cooling. Based on the results you're stating it's blatantly obvious you're too incompetent to build your own system and you would be better off allowing others to do for you.

 

 

See above rant about poor component quality in mac parts. The differences in reliability come out of the circuit board level and it's painfully obvious you wouldn't know a diode from a resistor..

 

 

On to the second macboi

 

 

We've been there from the earliest days of computing. Seriously gaming was just an afterthought of a use for computers that came up long after the mainstream uses had been explored. What cracks me up is the mainstream market is umm the "MAINSTREAM" market for a reason and I suggest you look up the word mainstream before continuing with this post. Are you really going to claim the universities and the government that built and funded the earliest computers were just doing it so they could play games?

 

I think you're underestimating the power of games like farmville and angry birds. Believe it or not but those are considered games and people playing them are GAMERS. IT's these truly casual gamers that are going to be a driving force in the future. Hardcore gamers are still going to continue to fund the development of high end gear with their purchases.

 

 

Oh yes this lovely mindset where you know you're right and all the experts and facts are wrong because you could never possible be making a mistake. You're so bought into ideology that facts and reality have no place in your existence as a result it's quite painful to read your completely misguided posts.

 

 

Haha you have now converted into total Apple fanboi at this point. Like I said before I don't like Microsoft but the reality is they are utterly DOMINATING all other OSes and browsers yet you point to the xbox as the only worthwhile product of Microsoft. The cognitive dissonance that is going on in this thread is utterly amazing.

 

 

Yeah they doubled in sales from 5% to 10% of the market.. Much like the hooplah over China's AMAZING economic growth the reality is they have a VERYYY long way to go before they catch up to the USA just like APPLe trying to catch up to the wintel market. BTW macs are PCs I highly suggest you look up the definition of a Personal Computer someday.

 

As for the PC market in general? Well sales are not declining overall and screaming that it is while closing your eyes and covering your ears isn't going to make it so. Even your own links despite selective use of numbers show a growing marketplace for wintels despite the worst economic downturn since the great depression. Seriously the whole world's market has been disrupted by the economic downturn and computer component suppliers have been severely affected by natural disasters. Those two combined should of been enough to completely destroy any growth and it didn't. The biggest problem I'm having right now is that hard drive prices are still over double what they were last year cause of the flooding. Once supply gets back into line and the prices get back where they should be everything will be gravy again

 

Like the mighty awesome Internet Explorer ?

 

Xbox 360 is not a good hardware, not good support by developers not sure why you guys like it.

 

PS3 is a different story but bro you are going off topic this is not PC vs MAC thread.

 

Go make your own thread stating PC vs MAC

 

The game sale is currently 2mil + copies

 

I don't think it is that much compared to other games that are multi platform sale

Edited March 10, 2012 by Lasani