Guild Summit: Mac users better really want it...

[Lord_Scythe]

You tell me first: What does a PC do that a Mac can't?

 

Play SWTOR without using bootcamp for one! Your turn!

 

Edit:

 

Once the game is stable and has been running I am sure that a Mac version of the game will get released.

 

Right now the team is busy working on bugs, UI upgrades, new content and the extra's that were missed in launch.

 

Companies do not initially cater to OS's with a small market share.

 

That is how life works and I am sure most mac users get used to it.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Lord_Scythe

[Tool_of_Society]

As Lethality points out, Mac OS X and iOS are very closely related. Same language, same API, same underpinnings, same design patterns, ... Once you learn one, you are most of the way to knowing the other. And they also use the closely-related, and open, graphics API (OpenGL), sound API (OpenAL), etc.

 

You can already see the trend Lethality speaks of. For example: Angry Birds, available on Mac, of course, but what's telling is its Windows requirement: OpenGL 1.3 or later. Or Elder Sign: Omens: it launched on iPad, iPhone, Android, and Mac OS X -- no Windows version in sight.

 

And the iPad is continuing to grow. The new model next week surpasses maximum console resolution by over a million pixels, and will maintain that for probably 5-10 years. Last quarter Apple sold more iOS devices than the number of either Xbox 360 or Playstation 3 consoles sold, ever. Developers notice, gain expertise with iOS and OpenGL, and thus their DirectX chains are broken.

On a 9.7 inch screen mind you

 

I seriously hope you're not trying to declare that the Ipad is going to displace the console or PC for gaming..

 

As for sales you better go recheck your numbers because sony alone has sold more playstation 3s then Ipads sold..

 

EDIT: In hindsight I see you said iOS which would mean you're comparing apples to oranges. Since iOS encompasses phones and other completely unrelated products that's not even remotely a proper comparison. The push to force consumers to continually upgrade their phones and other products inflates sales numbers too..

 

 

EDIT 2 : In 2006 60ish% of computer users were running 1024x768 today only about 13% use that resolution with 85% using higher. That's a subset taken from web browser information.

 

Steam reports that in 2006 their users used 1024x768(36.66%) or 1280x800(40.89%) resolution. The latest survey by steam shows 28% use 1920x1080 with 18% using 1680x1050 the rest are mostly spread amongst resolutions higher then 1280x1024 including 8% at 1920x1200

 

So in a period of 5-6ish years the common resolution used by gamers has increased fairly dramatically. Your declaration that 2048 by 1536 will be 1 million pixels ahead for the next 10 years is just utter fanboi level of crazy.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Tool_of_Society

[Cancrizans]

I have to ask, what advantage does Mac have over a PC that makes it worth the extra money spent on the Mac? Perhaps better for some professions out there?

 

It doesn't have any advantages. People who buy Apple's slick advertising and propaganda buy Apple products, it is that simple. Their products aren't any better than the competitors' they just look good and Apple talks a good game.

[Tool_of_Society]

It doesn't have any advantages. People who buy Apple's slick advertising and propaganda buy Apple products, it is that simple. Their products aren't any better than the competitors' they just look good and Apple talks a good game.

Pretty much because the hardware inside is the same. Back when Macs used to use RISC based processors they were actually technically superior as their architecture was superior to the CISC tech used by intel and clones.

[Kryssprolls]

1- According to latest stats from statcounter, Mac OS X market share is between 8 and 15% in the markets targeted by Bioware for TOR foccial launches.

 

And that is overall marketshare : no need to be Einstein to know that Macs have a higher share among home users than i among businesses. Expect Mac OS X share to be higher when talking about home users and gaming population.

 

2- Bioware said several times thay needed 500 k subs to break even. They are more or less standing at 2 million accounts as of today. 10% of 2 million = 200 k. That's at the very least is the number of Mac players Bioware can expect to have onboard if a Mac OS X TOR native client is available. Maybe a big chunk of those players are already on board, using Bootcamp. But maybe not.

If an OS X native client is available, 200 k players will be interested (no reboot needed, no loss of 70 GB disk space, ni Windows licence to buy), and, will be probably ok to be charged 1 time for this client.

 

I can't see how the cost of porting the client to Mac wouldn't be covered by the number of customers either added or already playing and willing to pay for a Mac client.

 

Transcoding DX 9 instructions to OpenGL 2.1 ones are a tiny, tiny part of the game overall development costs.

 

The game is already running ok (albeit not sufficiently to PvP or do hard mode FPs and operations, or do red space missions) through Parallels Desktop on a recent Mac rig : the game engine is undoubtly pretty low on hardware requirement and I think the DX9 coding is easily wrappable in a transcoding layer without much performance loss...

 

Bioware can go the Cider port route pretty confidently or ask for a third party company (like Feral interactive) to do a Mac port for a rather small price (compared to the voice acting or server management costs...).

[Elishah]

Suggesting that people use Boot Camp is pretty insulting. Turns out, the entire reason that many people use macs is to not use Windows. So your suggested solution is that they... use Windows. Great.

 

There are sixty million mac users. If even 5% of them had any interest in this game, it would triple the playerbase overnight.

[Kryssprolls]

It doesn't have any advantages. People who buy Apple's slick advertising and propaganda buy Apple products, it is that simple. Their products aren't any better than the competitors' they just look good and Apple talks a good game.

 

Some people buy Macs because:

 

- they know 2 computers using the same CPU, graphic cards, hard drive and overall form factor aren't the same. How cooling air flows are managed, quality of electronics, custom-designed mother boards, quality of screen (color gamut, contrast ration, resolution), tightness and sturdiness of the case, key sensitivity & solidity, weight, size... all those things are part of what make using a computer pleasant to use and how this computer will last.

 

That's why people buy Macs : lifespan, resale value, confort of use. And that's why Apple customers are ok to pay a bit more, are a steadily growing market and many professionals pretty knowledgeable about computers are Mac users themselves.

 

Add to that Mac OS X which is only available to Mac hardware and which has its share of features not available on Windows (and the other way around too, but everyone is able to tell what is best for him), and if you were a bit more open-minded, you would understand why people disagreeing with your misconceptions can buy Macs and, probably, be more knowledgeable than you on the subject...

 

Pretty much because the hardware inside is the same. Back when Macs used to use RISC based processors they were actually technically superior as their architecture was superior to the CISC tech used by intel and clones.

 

Many servers use the same main components. But it seems IT people in charge with critical missions are disagreeing with your take on the matter.

 

A computer is so much more than a CPU, a graphic card, an hard drive stuck on a mother board. Open a Macbook Pro case and the first thing that cross your mind is how a ferrari engine and components are displayed. How things are fitted together, how available space is used and what materials and secondary components are chosen accounts for a lot of the overall quality and performance of a computer. That was true when Macs were using RISC CPUs and it still holds true to this day.

 

Thinking Apple is trusting customer satisfaction statistics only because people are buying in an "Apple is cool" marketing scheme is simply deluding yourself.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Kryssprolls

[Tool_of_Society]

- they know 2 computers using the same CPU, graphic cards, hard drive and overall form factor aren't the same. How cooling air flows are managed, quality of electronics, custom-designed mother boards, quality of screen (color gamut, contrast ration, resolution), tightness and sturdiness of the case, key sensitivity & solidity, weight, size... all those things are part of what make using a computer pleasant to use and how this computer will last.

 

That's why people buy Macs : lifespan, resale value, confort of use. And that's why Apple customers are ok to pay a bit more, are a steadily growing market and many professionals pretty knowledgeable about computers are Mac users themselves.

Indeed many people buy macs because they are incapable of building a decent computer on their own.

 

 

Add to that Mac OS X which is only available to Mac hardware and which has its share of features not available on Windows (and the other way around too, but everyone is able to tell what is best for him), and if you were a bit more open-minded, you would understand why people disagreeing with your misconceptions can buy Macs and, probably, be more knowledgeable than you on the subject...

Ah it's cute someone hasn't realized that Macs are just PCs with a TPM chip. Protip: You can run OSx on a regular PC with very little work.

 

 

 

Many servers use the same main components. But it seems IT people in charge with critical missions are disagreeing with your take on the matter.

You're making utterly no sense. Are you seriously trying to claim major data centers use MACs as servers?

 

 

A computer is so much more than a CPU, a graphic card, an hard drive stuck on a mother board. Open a Macbook Pro case and the first thing that cross your mind is how a ferrari engine and components are displayed. How things are fitted together, how available space is used and what materials and secondary components are chosen accounts for a lot of the overall quality and performance of a computer. That was true when Macs were using RISC CPUs and it still holds true to this day.

 

 

Now you're just making crap up to make yourself feel better for paying more for off the shelf components then I do. I've already stated that the macbooks are pretty nice. Since it's hard to build your own laptop there's not much competition there. Mac desktops use standard off the shelf level components which are of no special quality. I've seen MAC desktop units using Taiwanese caps for god's sake..

 

Thinking Apple is trusting customer satisfaction statistics only because people are buying in an "Apple is cool" marketing scheme is simply deluding yourself.

Ignoring the massive power of proper marketing is even more delusional. All one has to do is look at the diamond industry for another example of the power of marketing.

 

Steve Jobs was pretty brilliant when it came to marketing. That dude could sell Eskimos multiple generations of freezers...

Edited March 8, 2012 by Tool_of_Society

[Halofax]

How can they expect me to play SWTOR when all my Skrillex CDs are on my itunes attached to my Mac partition.

 

This is an outrage.

[BrunoLogan]

This was expected: a "simple" port to OS X request and comment turned into a Mac vs. PC thread.

 

No one, but no one, should be trolled or disrespected for showing interest on a port of the game able to run on the computer and/or operating system of their choice. I know about the Bootcamp solution. But the thing here is that's quite unfair to have to buy a Windows license just to play a game, period!

 

I'm currently playing the game on my old PC but that doesn't mean I don't want to replace it for a Mac. If someone has the chance to keep playing the game on a Mac, how can that be so annoying to people who just doesn't like/have Macs? That's childish! If you like to have a Windows PC, have it! You're already served as far as this game is concerned. You don't have to turn this into a war just because some (or many) people wants a Mac version.

 

Just my 2 cents...

Edited March 8, 2012 by BrunoLogan

[Lethality]

I don't know how anyone could claim developing for an Iphone is effectively the same as developing for a desktop using OSX. Night and day doesn't even begin to describe it. The only way I could see someone believing these two are at all related is incredibly levels of drinking Apple coolaid or just total and utter ignorance about software development. In your case, I think it may actually be both.

 

Just so we're clear, constantly repeating this is not going to make it any more real. You can keep embracing ignorance all you want, but sooner or later you're gonna have to realize your little dream world didn't come true.

 

I'm a registered Apple developer.

 

If you cannot grasp that iOS is a subset of Mac OS X, I'm not sure what to tell you. Although your reaction is predictably defensive as my forecast of the future shakes the status quo you're used to.

[Lethality]

As Lethality points out, Mac OS X and iOS are very closely related. Same language, same API, same underpinnings, same design patterns, ... Once you learn one, you are most of the way to knowing the other. And they also use the closely-related, and open, graphics API (OpenGL), sound API (OpenAL), etc.

 

You can already see the trend Lethality speaks of. For example: Angry Birds, available on Mac, of course, but what's telling is its Windows requirement: OpenGL 1.3 or later. Or Elder Sign: Omens: it launched on iPad, iPhone, Android, and Mac OS X -- no Windows version in sight.

 

And the iPad is continuing to grow. The new model next week surpasses maximum console resolution by over a million pixels, and will maintain that for probably 5-10 years. Last quarter Apple sold more iOS devices than the number of either Xbox 360 or Playstation 3 consoles sold, ever. Developers notice, gain expertise with iOS and OpenGL, and thus their DirectX chains are broken.

 

Glad you're back Ark!

 

I know I sound crazy and extreme in this thread right now, but it's to hammer home the point in the trends.

 

Woot.

[Lethality]

EDIT: In hindsight I see you said iOS which would mean you're comparing apples to oranges. Since iOS encompasses phones and other completely unrelated products that's not even remotely a proper comparison.

 

Wow... you are REALLY not getting it here.

[Onyx]

Mac will never become a "gaming" machine for as long as it stays a closed system. When it comes to non casual games (Angry Birds, and the miriad of Ipad/Phone apps), the biggest amount of consumers tend to be gamers who upgrade their computers on a regular basis, and not buying new computers. Currently with Macs, they are basically throw away computers, and gamers do not want that, they want to be able to buy upgrades as wanted/needed without having to buy a whole new computer.

 

I don't doubt that casual games we see on Ipad/Phones are huge buisness, and that is why we see even developers like Bioware making games for those things as well, but they also didn't stop making games for consoles and the PC because there is still a huge market for that.

 

Gamers will never adopt a closed system for gaming, never, and Apple will need to change that if they ever want to be taken seriously for gaming.

 

What Apple needs to do is simply sell their operating system, just like how Windows sells their operating system. When they do that, then I have no doubt that Apples OS would be taken seriously and be a major competitor.

 

LMAO!!!

 

Yes, you just showed your age. We've "been there, done that, more than once".

 

FYI, many of today's top apps and even some of the reasons why computer gaming is such a huge market is due to Macs.

[Wolfeisberg]

Like the Xbox 360? or Playstation 3? There is no more closed system than consoles, and their games outsell Windows versions by over 10-to-1. DirectX is a closed API, too. The iPad has only been out 2 years and there are already about as many as either heavy console. Successful games sell in the millions on the iOS platform, attracting game developers by the thousands. Gamers don't hate closed systems at all.

 

1- Consoles also don't cost $2000+ to have a machine to play the latest games

2- Computer gamers are different then console gamers and most want to upgrade their computers on a regular basis.

3- When I am talking about a closed system I am talking about the ability to upgrade the hardware.

4- I never denied that iOS games are very successful, but they are what is considered as casual games, games like Angry Birds. you won't see a game like Deus Ex 3, Skyrim, SWTOR, First Person Shooters on the iOS. iOS games and Desktop games are going for different markets.

[Wolfeisberg]

LMAO!!!

 

Yes, you just showed your age. We've "been there, done that, more than once".

 

FYI, many of today's top apps and even some of the reasons why computer gaming is such a huge market is due to Macs.

 

yes, there was a time that apple computers were very popular. My elementary school had Apple II E computers. I first started gaming on them with Oregon Trail. My family later bought an Apple II GS, where I played Dungeon Master on it, plus a Robocop game, and Where is Carmen Sandiago games. So yes there was a time that many games where being made for the Apple. But things are different now. Macs are a closed system that can't be upgraded on a regular basis, and this is something that gamers who play games like Skyrim, SWTOR, Deus Ex 3, Witcher games, Gothic games, First person shooters, are not going to to buy.

[Morthis]

As Lethality points out, Mac OS X and iOS are very closely related. Same language, same API, same underpinnings, same design patterns, ... Once you learn one, you are most of the way to knowing the other. And they also use the closely-related, and open, graphics API (OpenGL), sound API (OpenAL), etc.

 

You can already see the trend Lethality speaks of. For example: Angry Birds, available on Mac, of course, but what's telling is its Windows requirement: OpenGL 1.3 or later. Or Elder Sign: Omens: it launched on iPad, iPhone, Android, and Mac OS X -- no Windows version in sight.

 

And the iPad is continuing to grow. The new model next week surpasses maximum console resolution by over a million pixels, and will maintain that for probably 5-10 years. Last quarter Apple sold more iOS devices than the number of either Xbox 360 or Playstation 3 consoles sold, ever. Developers notice, gain expertise with iOS and OpenGL, and thus their DirectX chains are broken.

 

Again, developing for an iPad and the likes is not the same. Developing a simple 2d sprite based game is downright trivial compared to even the most simple 3D games. For games aimed at those devices, coming up with a good idea matters more than anything. Actually implementing it isn't all that difficult, you just have to have a great idea for a game. It's why small time developers with a good idea will have a much easier time on a platform like that than on a desktop or console.

 

You're comparing things like facebook games and browser games to AAA video games, when they're basically nothing alike. That's like saying a secretary is an expert programmer because he types a lot in word and programming involves a lot of typing.

 

2- Bioware said several times thay needed 500 k subs to break even. They are more or less standing at 2 million accounts as of today. 10% of 2 million = 200 k. That's at the very least is the number of Mac players Bioware can expect to have onboard if a Mac OS X TOR native client is available. Maybe a big chunk of those players are already on board, using Bootcamp. But maybe not.

If an OS X native client is available, 200 k players will be interested (no reboot needed, no loss of 70 GB disk space, ni Windows licence to buy), and, will be probably ok to be charged 1 time for this client.

 

More nakpin math based on assumptions for EA to work with, yay! They can do the math, they've already done it, and made decisions based on that. Apparently this hugely important market share comes behind your grandma's 10 year old computer.

 

- they know 2 computers using the same CPU, graphic cards, hard drive and overall form factor aren't the same. How cooling air flows are managed, quality of electronics, custom-designed mother boards, quality of screen (color gamut, contrast ration, resolution), tightness and sturdiness of the case, key sensitivity & solidity, weight, size... all those things are part of what make using a computer pleasant to use and how this computer will last.

 

The actual tangible stuff in here is something any person building their own computer can do as well, as for the rest, I can't roll my eyes hard enough. You talk about the electronics as if the Apple versions were hand crafted by god himself to ensure good quality when they all just come from the same assembly line.

[ArkhamNative]

On a 9.7 inch screen mind you

I seriously hope you're not trying to declare that the iPad is going to displace the console or PC for gaming.

 

Stranger things have happened, but no, I'm not saying that. And yes, PC (Mac and Windows) resolutions are trending higher than 1080p, but consoles are limited to TV resolutions. Consoles and iOS games are where the consumers are, and therefore is where the money is to be made. And as developers gear up to develop for iOS, they're also building great Mac OS game developer skills, too.

[Lethality]

1- Consoles also don't cost $2000+ to have a machine to play the latest games

2- Computer gamers are different then console gamers and most want to upgrade their computers on a regular basis.

3- When I am talking about a closed system I am talking about the ability to upgrade the hardware.

4- I never denied that iOS games are very successful, but they are what is considered as casual games, games like Angry Birds. you won't see a game like Deus Ex 3, Skyrim, SWTOR, First Person Shooters on the iOS. iOS games and Desktop games are going for different markets.

 

You also seem to be missing my point.

 

Without even trying, Apple put gaming machines in the hands of hundreds of millions of people that didn't even know they wanted one. The game developers saw the innovation Apple brought in hardware and software, and jumped on it.

 

So, obviously casual and social games are leading the charge here, because these people are not gamers. But they represent a MUCH larger audience and customer base than gamers do. By an order of magnitude.

 

The nature of developers supporting iOS (and all game developers will) means they are also a sneeze away from deploying on Mac OS X - and many of them already are.

 

Meanwhile, all of these developers are building toolsets that will be VERY robust for supporting the iOS/Mac OS X platform. The future decision is not "do we support the Mac" it's "do we port this to Windows." There's no Direct X or other Windows crutch APIs that developers have used over the years. Many will skip it, as producing high-budget games for a PC with high system requirements for a niche audience is coming to at end. The back door win here for Apple is that the most popular casual and social and mobile gaming platform is also what powers the Mac desktop.

 

You need to look toward the future... mobile games and desktop games are generally for different markets right now. But the trend is toward accessibility. Most hardware will run most things out of the box, the importance of eeking every little ounce of performance out is, again, a teeny niche. No one cares about upgrading hardware, those people fall into that niche I was talking about above. They just want to play the games/use the tool. Consoles, mobile, tablets, the Mac and yes, even most PC purchasers... they buy it, and just buy another one in a few years.

 

Things are changing... it won't be overnight, but any developer that doesn't embrace it will be left behind. And any consumer that tries to fight it will be standing there holding their liquid CPU cooler in one hand and scratching their *** with the other.

[Morthis]

I'm a registered Apple developer.

 

If you cannot grasp that iOS is a subset of Mac OS X, I'm not sure what to tell you. Although your reaction is predictably defensive as my forecast of the future shakes the status quo you're used to.

 

I'm sorry was that supposed to impress me? You make it sound as if this certifies you as being knowledgeable about this stuff, but it doesn't at all. It means you filled out a web form and paid a fee, nothing more. Do I need to fill out the form as well so I can say "I'm an Apple developer and you're wrong?"

 

Let's see the AAA video games you've worked on, then you can tell us how this is similar to making Sudoku for iPad.

[Wolfeisberg]

You also seem to be missing my point.

 

Without even trying, Apple put gaming machines in the hands of hundreds of millions of people that didn't even know they wanted one. The game developers saw the innovation Apple brought in hardware and software, and jumped on it.

 

So, obviously casual and social games are leading the charge here, because these people are not gamers. But they represent a MUCH larger audience and customer base than gamers do. By an order of magnitude.

 

The nature of developers supporting iOS (and all game developers will) means they are also a sneeze away from deploying on Mac OS X - and many of them already are.

 

Meanwhile, all of these developers are building toolsets that will be VERY robust for supporting the iOS/Mac OS X platform. The future decision is not "do we support the Mac" it's "do we port this to Windows." There's no Direct X or other Windows crutch APIs that developers have used over the years. Many will skip it, as producing high-budget games for a PC with high system requirements for a niche audience is coming to at end. The back door win here for Apple is that the most popular casual and social and mobile gaming platform is also what powers the Mac desktop.

 

You need to look toward the future... mobile games and desktop games are generally for different markets right now. But the trend is toward accessibility. Most hardware will run most things out of the box, the importance of eeking every little ounce of performance out is, again, a teeny niche. No one cares about upgrading hardware, those people fall into that niche I was talking about above. They just want to play the games/use the tool. Consoles, mobile, tablets, the Mac and yes, even most PC purchasers... they buy it, and just buy another one in a few years.

 

Things are changing... it won't be overnight, but any developer that doesn't embrace it will be left behind. And any consumer that tries to fight it will be standing there holding their liquid CPU cooler in one hand and scratching their *** with the other.

 

Yes, what I see for the future for the Mac OS is a bunch of social/casual games. But will never be taken seriously as a gaming machine for games you would see on the consoles, or games like Skyrim, Deus Ex, Gothic games, First Person Shooters. Like I said, I never denied the market for casual/social games, and they are a huge market for that. But there is another huge money making market in the PC/Console gaming that Mac will never keep up with.

[CFourPO]

Granted I only skimmed this thread but many of you are missing the most important point.

 

Don't use Mac or Linux OS if you care about humanity.

 

Have you seen the Matrix, iRobot, Terminator? You know what happened - machines take over the world.

 

I used to run Linux. It NEVER crashed. Never. After a year of it never crashing I put on WindowsXP.

 

Why? because it crashed regularly of course and I'm not about to contribute to the destruction of my species.

 

Obviously, if Mac or Unix based systems become the norm, this is feasible. What is a Microsoft OS terminator gonna do? How often will his lil robot eyes roll over with a BSOD?

Edited March 8, 2012 by CFourPO

[Lethality]

I'm sorry was that supposed to impress me? You make it sound as if this certifies you as being knowledgeable about this stuff, but it doesn't at all. It means you filled out a web form and paid a fee, nothing more. Do I need to fill out the form as well so I can say "I'm an Apple developer and you're wrong?"

 

Let's see the AAA video games you've worked on, then you can tell us how this is similar to making Sudoku for iPad.

 

I've been an Apple developer since 1984.

[ArkhamNative]

I never denied that iOS games are very successful, but they are what is considered as casual games, games like Angry Birds. you won't see a game like Deus Ex 3, Skyrim, SWTOR, First Person Shooters on the iOS. iOS games and Desktop games are going for different markets.

You said gamers only want pieces/parts computers, not non-upgradeable hardware, and I pointed to all the console gamers who represent over 90% of the shooter games market.

 

But the overall point is that the success of iOS gaming is causing developers to remove their DirectX blinders, and to add expertise in open gaming technology standards in general, and Objective-C/Cocoa skills in particular, which directly benefits Mac OS game development. And these skills aren't casual/facebook game-specific.

[ArkhamNative]

When you [bioWare] come out and say "We are doing everything we can to allow this to run on the crappiest PCs we can find in our basements, so we can increase market share by reaching out to non-traditional gamers who don't have high-end rigs," and then someone says "In that case, what about Macs?" and you reply "Them? Screw em, let em pay an extra $100 and use Bootstrap [sic], and no we don't intend to provide support if they do."

 

I'm kind of glad I didn't see this part of the Guild Summit. It sounds like something only a [boorish person?] would say. It's insulting a segment of BioWare customers, and a slap in the face to the paying SWTOR customer (and social group representative) asking the question. This also directly contradicts what his CEO-level people have recently said to the press.

 

BioWare's Mac customers account for far more profit than dozens of such employee's salary. I would think this person wouldn't want to put BioWare in the position to have to choose either/or.

Edited March 8, 2012 by ArkhamNative