Combat logs 1.2. Parsable outside of game.

[Glock_]

Sooooooooo happy to hear this.

 

Glad they didnt take the low end road and allow others to dictate who they can and can not take in Ops/Flashpoints just because their dps, is a little lower then so and so.

 

I just want to see if im number one on the list, in realtime, ingame.

And the mandatory bragging link after a fight in /ops ofc

[WhiskyJax]

Not really, hes simply trying to come up with a motive as to why you don't want people to see what your damage is, and that one is close at hand. You could be awesome at DPS and hate meters because all of the adulation from your peers is embarrassing, somehow though I doubt that's the case.

 

Whatever your motivations and whether or not he was accurate in judging them, it doesn't change the validity of his other statements. This isn't a mathematical proof where one error spoils the whole thing, this is a debate and you have to rebut the point you want to call invalid, using facts and not straw men.

 

How about the fact that i don't want top see my chat log filled with someone blaming the healer for raid wipes because their healing is .05% below what some jerk with a 25 hit webpage says.

 

The fact is that for every fine upstanding person who would use this information to help others there are 100 that will use this information to belittle and exclude.

[eudaemonea]

I just want to see if im number one on the list, in realtime, ingame.

And the mandatory bragging link after a fight in /ops ofc

 

 

 

and you're exactly the type of person that shouldn't have access to it

[dudexx]

dont join a guild the puts so much pressure on performance if u dont like it. there are plenty of casual guilds out there for people to play with.

[Glock_]

The fact is that for every fine upstanding person who would use this information to help others there are 100 that will use this information to belittle and exclude.

 

Really? usealy its just the dpsers in the guild comparing how they have done and whos top on the kill

There are ofc people in pugs who try to take the highest scoring persons so they will have a easy kill, but simular weeding out will always be done. Either by inspecting personally on gear, or even something silly as test duels Its not really the tool you can blame for that.

But for example if we kept wiping on a enrage timer, i would be so glad to see that person whos maybe doing half the dmg he should be doing and act on that.

[Glock_]

and you're exactly the type of person that shouldn't have access to it

 

Why? because i like the competition between other classes in the same role? I dont think id like to be in a ops with dpsers who didnt give a duck about how much dmg they inflict

You know its a bit of healthy competition, and its also the very nature of humans. We where and always will be competitive creatures

 

And on the other hand, why shouldnt i be allowed to see if someone isnt preforming good enough?

If i would be in a HM or NM encounter a big factor is beating the enrage timer. Now i would be pretty peaved if we kept wiping on end because someone is not an par with the rest. If i, or someother dps in that case be (s)lacking, you would also want to know and sort it out. and better in realtime ingame then wiping maybe a whole evening and then try to collect everyone parses

 

And yes,if its a serious fight. I would replace the DPS that cant outnuke the tank. And tell him he should go read some class guides and get him some help if its a gear issue and run him trough some FPs. Gues im a very bad person then

Edited March 6, 2012 by Glock_

[Knewt]

Your "right way" is completely opinion.

 

Keeping the log personal is a good move in my opinion. In a guild setting, uploading a log is not a difficult thing to do. I think it's a good mechanic in allowing the community to police themselves.

I've been involved in MMOs a long time. I've played in guilds at all levels of competitive raiding. You'd be surprised how many good gamers can't figure out how to send a combat log that doesn't need massive pruning.

 

If it was my guild and I was running with you, a few runs and I'd know you weren't pulling your weight.

That was kind of my point. The personal combat log is useless. You would need to have me in a few runs before you could figure out if I knew what I was doing. Now, if you took me on a couple of FPs and were able to parse my DPS, you would have both your personal observations and real numbers to make an informed decision.

[Knewt]

How about the fact that i don't want top see my chat log filled with someone blaming the healer for raid wipes because their healing is .05% below what some jerk with a 25 hit webpage says.

They aren't implementing a live damage meter. It is a combat log that can be saved to disk. Besides, if you are in a raid, I hope you're in a guild that can manage to see all of the angles involved in a fight.

 

Or you're pugging Operations. In which case, you deserve what you get for pugging.

 

The fact is that for every fine upstanding person who would use this information to help others there are 100 that will use this information to belittle and exclude.

Please stop repeating horrible anecdotal evidence that you heard from somebody else.

[WhiskyJax]

They aren't implementing a live damage meter. It is a combat log that can be saved to disk. Besides, if you are in a raid, I hope you're in a guild that can manage to see all of the angles involved in a fight.

 

Or you're pugging Operations. In which case, you deserve what you get for pugging.

 

 

Please stop repeating horrible anecdotal evidence that you heard from somebody else.

 

No its something I have experienced and seen others experienced in chat on many occasions and one of the reasons why I stopped playing Wow

[Glock_]

No its something I have experienced and seen others experienced in chat on many occasions and one of the reasons why I stopped playing Wow

 

Well thats the people, not the tool. Thats more related to what kind of people you usealy find in pugs. Best way to avoid that, is to find a proper guild and do fun stuff with your guildmates

[Knewt]

No its something I have experienced and seen others experienced in chat on many occasions and one of the reasons why I stopped playing Wow

Grow a thicker skin or run with your guild mates. That is the point of a guild, right? Of course, if your guild mates are spamming you, maybe you need to find new friends.

[eudaemonea]

Why? because i like the competition between other classes in the same role? I dont think id like to be in a ops with dpsers who didnt give a duck about how much dmg they inflict

You know its a bit of healthy competition, and its also the very nature of humans. We where and always will be competitive creatures

 

And on the other hand, why shouldnt i be allowed to see if someone isnt preforming good enough?

If i would be in a HM or NM encounter a big factor is beating the enrage timer. Now i would be pretty peaved if we kept wiping on end because someone is not an par with the rest. If i, or someother dps in that case be (s)lacking, you would also want to know and sort it out. and better in realtime ingame then wiping maybe a whole evening and then try to collect everyone parses

 

And yes,if its a serious fight. I would replace the DPS that cant outnuke the tank. And tell him he should go read some class guides and get him some help if its a gear issue and run him trough some FPs. Gues im a very bad person then

 

did you read my first post on the page prior to your "i need the right to brag" response? if you did, then you have the answers. if not, go back and read it.

 

oh here... i'll just quote it for you:

 

Too many people use an in game damage/healing meter type mod as a way to lord it over others. It's a number. It shows you absolutely nothing about cooldown usage, hot/dot uptimes, damage taken, spell procs, uptime on trinket usage, etc that you'll get from an actual parse.

 

World of Logs was the BEST tool I had as a raid leader to figure out what the hell happened. I didn't give two figs about recount. Recount was just for that those idiots that liked to boast about how high their damage/heals were. Even if they were completely screwing up every other aspect of the fight... which I *COULD* see with parses.

 

And yes, I do need to see all 8/16 people's information if we get to a fight we're having issues with -- for hard/nightmare operations. Outside of that, no... I don't need to see your information because it's irrelevant. Easy is easy and you can do whatever you want in easy mode stuff. But if you come to one of my raids for hardmode or nightmare, I damn well do need to be able to pick apart data to find the root cause of whatever problem we're ramming our head into a wall over. And no, I do not care about your individual DPS unless it's so pathetically low that I need to replace you.

 

Right now, I run an 8 man group and can visually see when people do SOME of the stupid stuff. We have more disagreements over what person A thinks happened vs. person B than any other issue. Parses will help that. That it's not group wide for operations will be frustrating but I'll deal with it.

 

But in NO WAY do I condone or encourage them to put stupid recount in this game. That just leads to nitwits thinking they're important when they aren't... and trying to make others feel bad when their number isn't as high as someone elses. High numbers does not always equal playing optimally. However parses DO show you that information. I can see who's being the team player vs. the idiot that just tunnels the boss with no regard for anything other than his/her high dps/heal number at the end.

 

Apples and oranges.

 

To satisfy the DPS whores though, a damage meter at the end of a boss fight somewhat similar to warzone information would be an ok thing with me. Not linkable. You see it and then once you close it, it's gone. Not during combat. After.

 

And to those of you that are all about the "well *I* use recount to help others..."

 

you're attempting to use that to make a point that's very counter to what a vast majority of us have seen actually taking place in these types of games. You may be that 1 in a million super nice guy that DOES do that... but there are lots more out there that use it as a tool to humiliate and belittle others.

 

I spent hours and hours going over parses in wow to figure out how to help my group get better. Most people put fingers in their ears when you tell them anything counter to how they want to do things when their numbers are high. Recount is a menace to any game that implements it.

 

just my .02 take it for what you will

Edited March 6, 2012 by eudaemonea

[Glock_]

World of logs was brilliant, for tweaking. Recount did a far better job at weeding out the rough bits during the raids. Faster and in realtime. From CCs getting broken to seeing if every one in the raid did his best to avoid dmg taken.

Example you wipe, you check the incoming dmg on players and its sources. And you adress the players to took far to much avoidable dmg. or you spot the dps that has 20% less dmg done then anyone else, and adress him. Then you try the fight again. All in all recount is a brilliant addon that easy to use and shows you on the fly what info you need. I never needed world of logs other then tweaking my 0.5% dps gain tbh

[eudaemonea]

World of logs was brilliant, for tweaking. Recount did a far better job at weeding out the rough bits during the raids. Faster and in realtime. From CCs getting broken to seeing if every one in the raid did his best to avoid dmg taken.

Example you wipe, you check the incoming dmg on players and its sources. And you adress the players to took far to much avoidable dmg. or you spot the dps that has 20% less dmg done then anyone else, and adress him. Then you try the fight again. All in all recount is a brilliant addon that easy to use and shows you on the fly what info you need. I never needed world of logs other then tweaking my 0.5% dps gain tbh

 

 

IF the vast majority of people would use it that way, then yes. But they don't...

 

and we ran logs real time. I could look at the same info on world of logs after the fight but in much greater detail

[Glock_]

They mayority of players? well they use it for just that and bragging/bantering amongst friends/guildies.

Its just that negative players draw more attention then nice ones i reckon. But do you really think those are stopped by not handing them a certain tool? they will just use something else.

For example if a bully is throwing eggs at people, you think he will stop when you ban eggs for everyone?

[Draekos]

Back when I played wow we uploaded our raid logs to a website which I forget the name of as its been awhile since I played, but it was a great tool to evaluate the raid's performance and help people improve. I found it far more useful to look into the details offline rather then just raw stats mid or right after a boss fight.

 

Sounds good Bioware, keep it up.

[Rasstavad]

No its something I have experienced and seen others experienced in chat on many occasions and one of the reasons why I stopped playing Wow

 

Why are so many sensitive flowers attracted to this game?

 

In the hundreds and hundreds of instances I have participated in during my long career in WoW I have only seen an unsolicited recount spammed a handfull of times. In most cases what I get is a whisper "Hey, can you link me recount?"... you do know that you can link them in a whisper? Right?

 

I have been top, I have been middle.... and I have been bottem at times. It never made we want to quit - only strive harder and try to learn my class or aquire the gear to be competitive.

 

The only reason to be scared is if you just *know* you will be singled out for being horrible. Maybe you know this from experience... ? Like a poster before me said, don't feed me the altruistic "I care for my bretheren" crap. I don't believe it.

[Kesherao]

Like a poster before me said, don't feed me the altruistic "I care for my bretheren" crap. I don't believe it.

 

It was me, I said it! Yes, someone noticing my awesome post!

[anstalt]

I'd be happy with a full DPS meter / recount type of thing for TOR if, and only if, it left off actual numbers.

 

As a raid leader, I don't care if my top DPS does 4000dps, second DPS does 3500dps etc. What I can about is the difference between the players on any given fight. Actual numbers only serve as bragging rights. % difference between players on a fight is what counts as a raid leader. If top DPS is doing 20% more than bottom, that is useful information to me.

 

 

Perhaps as another alternative, DPS meters for normal raid members should only display who is top DPS, and your rating compared to them. This acts as a motivator for yourself to reach the top whilst preventing your screen from getting cluttered. It also gets over displaying the "bads" which can be socially awkward. The raid leader, on the other hand, should be able to see everyone's scores so that they can provide feedback and advice to those who need it (you know, actually lead and stuff ).

[DigitalPrime]

I dont get it, Why are so many people so against in-game combat logs.

 

If you like casual gameplay, Dont join a hardcore guild. Join a casual guild. If you get rejected into a group. Just remember, your playstyle IS casual and not everyone is a casual player.

 

Pugging, If a raid leader says your gear is not enough for set raid. Thats fine, work to get better gear for that instance.

 

Guilds, Its part of the fun been a DPS in a guild. Battling with friends for the top DPS spot of the guild. I can see some of you havent experienced this, you tie this competition with been rejected in a pug. Competition, its a good thing.

 

Its a competitive game, in all aspecs. DPS tables, PVP, healing tables. Alot of these ties to in-game mechanics, Such as DPS with enrage timers. Combat timers would help those not beating the enraged timers.

People should have the right to play how they feel. If a guild or raid leader wants a set gear standard for his group of guild. Fine, give him the tools to do so.

 

If a casual who wants to play casual and not have to worry about maximum DPS when he/she plays. Fine. Find people of with a simaler gaming style and go about your day.

 

Having combat logs does not hinder your gaming style. Its only when the casuals try to cross paths with those hardcore players. But then the casual trys to diminish the hardcores style because he didnt get picked due to his style of play which is casual.

 

Crazy!

 

 

WE NEED IN-GAME COMABT LOGS

[RealAeiouy]

Personal, downloadable logs are a half-baked, half-assed way to implement combat logs. If Bioware is going to implement combat logs that can be saved for offline parsing, they need to go all the way and let me see everything from everyone.

 

Lol no. It makes no sense that a character can detect and log all combat around them with 100% accuracy. That makes no sense as game feedback.

 

The half arsed / half baked combat logs are holdovers from MUDs where mmog devs were too lazy to do them right.

 

Again it makes zero sense from a game play or a playability perspective to capture everyone's data. You should learn how to play the games not the combat logs.

[RealAeiouy]

This will not prevent DPS and Healing discrimination. It will simply make it more difficult to do so.

 

As an OPs leader, if my group is hitting enrage timers, I'm going to have to stop the run, have everyone email me their text files, and process the info. It's a cumbersome, tedious process.

 

Bad decision in my opinion. It'll only be half a tool. You can't pound nails with half a hammer.

 

You sound like a horrible leader. Did you first play mmogs as wow in 2009?

[RealAeiouy]

I don't get why some are so afraid for others to be able to see how well they are performing their role in game.

 

Why are you afraid to play the game as designed? Not being able to do content without meters does not make you better... Lol so why are YOU afraid?

[erei]

I dont get it, Why are so many people so against in-game combat logs.

 

If you like casual gameplay, Dont join a hardcore guild. Join a casual guild. If you get rejected into a group. Just remember, your playstyle IS casual and not everyone is a casual player.

 

Pugging, If a raid leader says your gear is not enough for set raid. Thats fine, work to get better gear for that instance.

 

Guilds, Its part of the fun been a DPS in a guild. Battling with friends for the top DPS spot of the guild. I can see some of you havent experienced this, you tie this competition with been rejected in a pug. Competition, its a good thing.

 

Its a competitive game, in all aspecs. DPS tables, PVP, healing tables. Alot of these ties to in-game mechanics, Such as DPS with enrage timers. Combat timers would help those not beating the enraged timers.

People should have the right to play how they feel. If a guild or raid leader wants a set gear standard for his group of guild. Fine, give him the tools to do so.

 

If a casual who wants to play casual and not have to worry about maximum DPS when he/she plays. Fine. Find people of with a simaler gaming style and go about your day.

 

Having combat logs does not hinder your gaming style. Its only when the casuals try to cross paths with those hardcore players. But then the casual trys to diminish the hardcores style because he didnt get picked due to his style of play which is casual.

 

Crazy!

 

 

WE NEED IN-GAME COMABT LOGS

 

You can kick noob people without a parser to. I kicked one some days ago, because his DPS was extremely low, and he was with lvl32 green gear, as a lvl50. My bad, I didn't check his gear before we start the HM, I assumed anyone running HM have at least lvl50 gear.

I was not an ***, it was just IMPOSSIBLE to kill the damned boss (bulwark, D7), so I told him his lvl32 gear was ****, and it was impossible to finish the instance this way. I suggested him to buy/find some lvl50 gear, and there was no problems, he left on his own and apologized.

With a parser, I would have been able to see how bad he was right from the beginning, and save 1h of my life.

For every casual who want to run in a hardcore guild, and are scared because people will see how much they suck at DPS, you're doing it wrong.

I use a parser to improve myself, and people who ask for it. For those who want to stay bad and casual, I don't care, they do whatever they want, just without me. I will not shame them, or troll them or whatever, and I will respect them. It's just a videogame afterall, but they won't be allowed to break my fun, and my friend's fun.

 

If you don't want to use a parser, don't. If you are a casual in an hardcore guild, and are scared they will see it, try another guild, this is stupid.

Lol no. It makes no sense that a character can detect and log all combat around them with 100% accuracy. That makes no sense as game feedback.

 

The half arsed / half baked combat logs are holdovers from MUDs where mmog devs were too lazy to do them right.

 

Again it makes zero sense from a game play or a playability perspective to capture everyone's data. You should learn how to play the games not the combat logs.

3D doesn't make a lot of sense, we should learn to play pong instead. Great game, everything you need, and nothing more.

Edited March 6, 2012 by erei

[RealAeiouy]

Reiterating this because this is the best post so far in this thread, and wipes the floor with any counter-arguments.

 

Lol his argument is the reason things are going to be like they are. "sub optimal" fail based on parsing is ridiculous. It is about time people who only played wow learn how to actually play an mmog. People who play the meter are doing it wrong. It is about working collectively with provided feedback to overcome obstacles. This never had required meters and if you can't do content without meters that is on you not magically on everybody else.

 

If your only attitude in a group or raid is I am doing good so everyone else do more than you are a bad player. The object should be to take eight players and suceed. Not just have eight people play the most overpowered spec to achieve maximum dps, that is super lazy and entirely skillless