Bioware, what are you thinking?

[VanorDM]

i do agree that some sith did become jedi BUT thos are RARE and EXCEPTIONS

 

According to what source?

 

'Cuse based on the existing lore there's at least a couple Sith Jedi running around right now. Then once this is included in the game, it then becomes canon that there are Sith Jedi.

 

if your a chiss player and you defect or playin on the republic side you have a bounty on your and should be flagged for pvp

 

You mean like all the humans who defect and yet are not flagged for PvP? Or how about the companions who started off as Sith/Imperials and yet they aren't targeted for anything special.

 

If anything my Jedi would be a much bigger target to the Empire then a Chiss smuggler, because I've done real damage to the Empire, the Chiss may of done little to nothing to harm the Empire.

[RuQu]

ok its sounds like to me both sides are god moding like a mofo , if you have a problem with this sith purebloods joinin then get people form a guild an ignore them simple , i do agree that some sith did become jedi BUT thos are RARE and EXCEPTIONS and to say hey everyone can turn from the dark side just makes me scratch my head and go wait a min not all of you can do that because lets be honest if your a chiss player and you defect or playin on the republic side you have a bounty on your and should be flagged for pvp , same for any other defections or anything , if wanna addd this thats all im asking for is the ability to attack any purebloods and chiss who decide to defect and vice versus for republic people too

 

You can...on a PvP server.

[Voqar]

I agree with the OP and I'm not even a lore junkie. This game has barely been out a couple months and they're already ditching basic and critical lore stuff.

 

If you want to retain players or attract new players, this is not the way - come up with other ideas (because IMO that's why they're doing this and it's just not the best idea).

 

Except that, particularly in something like the SW universe, there are always members of a given race/faction/species/what have you that may not agree with their leaders and would prefer to join the opposing faction. So it makes just as much sense for a specific member of a given race to serve the race their government is opposing as to server the one it is affiliated with.

 

A fine idea for a movie or book. A terrible idea for a game.

[VanorDM]

This game has barely been out a couple months and they're already ditching basic and critical lore stuff.

 

Such as?

 

I mean if you're going to make an assertion like that, you better be able to back it up with examples.

[RuQu]

I agree with the OP and I'm not even a lore junkie. This game has barely been out a couple months and they're already ditching basic and critical lore stuff.

 

If you want to retain players or attract new players, this is not the way - come up with other ideas (because IMO that's why they're doing this and it's just not the best idea).

 

 

 

A fine idea for a movie or book. A terrible idea for a game.

 

Better to release it now than in 3 years. If they did this 3 years from now it would go against established game canon.

 

They have repeatedly said they wanted Legacy in at launch but couldn't get it in on time. This was always how it was supposed to be, so it makes perfect sense to do it as soon as possible.

[lokivoid]

This is a HORRIBLE idea. It makes a total mockery of Star Wars lore, and will completely ruin the game's atmosphere and integrity. Simply from the perspective of a Republic player, I do not want to see a bunch of Purebloods and Chiss running around on Carrick Station, it will just look completely stupid.

 

It is lore breaking in the worst way and for the WORST reason: convenience. I for one am willing to forgo this "feature" until REAL new races are released...whether that be in the near future or several years down the road...or frankly...never.

 

There is absolutely nothing in the Starwars expanded universe lore that says certain races cannot belong to a faction or of a certain alignment. In summery no lore has been broken.

 

Race options will have no impact on gameplay (unless they revert back to the racial's from early beta) As at the moment race is cosmetic only.

 

Stop making up excuses to defend your argument, reality is your only ************ becuse they did not mention any new races.

[zee-ro]

Just thinking that I would hate to implement aspects of a game that is dead in to one that wants to grow.

 

Maybe this didn't kill SWG, but maybe it played a part?

 

I believe it ruined that game irredeemably, others are probably less dramatic in their view but I believe the majority would agree that allowing masses of Jedi in SWG is what ultimately turned it rubbish and collapsed the whole in-game world.

 

Anyway, I digress off-topic.

 

I can see the OP's point here, but there is no fair way to restrict the number in a way which would be true to the common interpretation of Lore. This is star wars for the casual masses, it's not quite the deep, complex epic I would have hoped for but I still believe it's overall, a very well made game, and what I am disappointed in is balanced out by BW's ability to tell a great story.

 

They're making a game to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, and while plenty may not agree, i'd be inclined to believe that a larger group of subscribers feel differently to the OP and that is why it's being implemented.

 

it will be odd perhaps, and overused.. but its not a dealbreaker and will not ruin my enjoyment of the game. If this game was more like the original SWG then my opinion would be much different.

[RuQu]

I believe it ruined that game irredeemably, others are probably less dramatic in their view but I believe the majority would agree that allowing masses of Jedi in SWG is what ultimately turned it rubbish and collapsed the whole in-game world.

 

Anyway, I digress off-topic.

 

I can see the OP's point here, but there is no fair way to restrict the number in a way which would be true to the common interpretation of Lore. This is star wars for the casual masses, it's not quite the deep, complex epic I would have hoped for but I still believe it's overall, a very well made game, and what I am disappointed in is balanced out by BW's ability to tell a great story.

 

They're making a game to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, and while plenty may not agree, i'd be inclined to believe that a larger group of subscribers feel differently to the OP and that is why it's being implemented.

 

it will be odd perhaps, and overused.. but its not a dealbreaker and will not ruin my enjoyment of the game. If this game was more like the original SWG then my opinion would be much different.

 

Why? The original SWG had no restrictions, and also takes place in a completely different era.

 

I do miss the old skill system. The removal of that at the same time as making everyone a Jedi probably did more damage together than either would have done alone.

[zee-ro]

Why? The original SWG had no restrictions, and also takes place in a completely different era.

 

I do miss the old skill system. The removal of that at the same time as making everyone a Jedi probably did more damage together than either would have done alone.

 

Forgive me if I'm being something of a simpleton here, but aren't we more or less agreeing?

 

SWG had no restrictions, correct.. but we both agree that the lack of restrictions on Jedi was a contributing factor to the games downfall. Now in SWTOR, Jedi are again nothing special, (and if anything somewhat comically underpowered compared with movie interpretations just to make the game playable but I again digress) so there are somewhat limited options in terms of helping players stand out from the crowd, which is what the majority seem to want. Locking certain races to a faction, and certain equipment sets to certain groups is a way of helping ensure variety with an element of preserved identity.. a reasonably balanced mix of the individual and the uniform, with the tilt being toward the latter for practicality reasons on the part of the game maker.

 

If any race can play any faction with unusual blends of abilities thanks to the Legacy system (which I can appreciate makes some sense- family traits etc..) then characters, factions and classes start to lose an element of their identity which might otherwise have been preserved. Something which we seemingly agree ruined SWG, even accepting of that fact that such things were already comparitively insignificant in SWTOR.

[Msicr]

i would love to play as a Jedi sith xD

[VanorDM]

but we both agree that the lack of restrictions on Jedi was a contributing factor to the games downfall.

 

Speaking as an outsider, here's how it seemed to be to me.

 

Allowing the influx of Jedi caused problems, two of the reasons are...

 

1) A number of people went though some pretty serrious grinding to unlock a Jedi prior to that, and after the change Jedi became just another class you could pick.

 

2) The Lore of that era does not allow for the number of Jedi you saw running around, because in that era there should be what less then like ten Jedi left in the whole galaxy, those left should be in hiding somewhere, because they're being hunted down.

 

Neither of those really applies in this case.

[RuQu]

Forgive me if I'm being something of a simpleton here, but aren't we more or less agreeing?

 

SWG had no restrictions, correct.. but we both agree that the lack of restrictions on Jedi was a contributing factor to the games downfall. Now in SWTOR, Jedi are again nothing special, (and if anything somewhat comically underpowered compared with movie interpretations just to make the game playable but I again digress) so there are somewhat limited options in terms of helping players stand out from the crowd, which is what the majority seem to want. Locking certain races to a faction, and certain equipment sets to certain groups is a way of helping ensure variety with an element of preserved identity.. a reasonably balanced mix of the individual and the uniform, with the tilt being toward the latter for practicality reasons on the part of the game maker.

 

If any race can play any faction with unusual blends of abilities thanks to the Legacy system (which I can appreciate makes some sense- family traits etc..) then characters, factions and classes start to lose an element of their identity which might otherwise have been preserved. Something which we seemingly agree ruined SWG, even accepting of that fact that such things were already comparitively insignificant in SWTOR.

 

I read your first post as saying a removal of race/faction restriction would be more of a problem in SWG than here.

 

One of the advantages of this era is that Jedi are not insanely rare. In the era of the Original Trilogy tons of Jedi are just absurd.

 

I think a big problem, for both players and developers in games like this is that desire for individuality you are referencing. You see people complaining about others getting easier access to something they had to struggle for, as if it actually decreases the value of their achievement. There is that "I want to look/be special" mentality. Everyone wants to be the hero of their own story, but they are in a game where other people are experiencing the same story, and everyone is the hero, and they feel less special.

 

This system, if approached correctly, increases your individuality, not decreases it. Sure, to the other players on Carrick Station you are just "another idiot who hates lore" because you are a Sith Pureblood. But to you....to you you are an outcast from the Empire, who reached the Republic through some amazing turn of events that saw you turning your back on your people, your family, and your culture. Now you strive to make amends for the wrongs of your past, while constantly being tempted back to the Dark Side by your nature. You take up Smuggling and eschew the use of the Force...except occasionally Force Choking fools when the situation gets dire.

 

Does anyone else know that? No, unless you tell them. Does their opinion matter? No. Does yours matter to them? Not a bit.

 

Now, knowing that your Sith Pureblood Smuggler is a delicate snowflake of individuality and therefore acceptable, you are faced with a choice: Do you assume that you are the only one who rolled one with a compelling backstory that fits in the lore and everyone else is an idiot, or do you acknowledge that perhaps others are just as capable of playing that kind of character for a good reason?

 

The answer to that question says a lot about who you, the real you, are as a person.

[zee-ro]

All valid points.

 

As I mentioned earlier, these changes are not a dealbreaker for me at all, I can simply appreciate the other side (OP) of the coin.

 

Everything you say is totally valid, but I also appreciate the arguable legitimacy of the OP's concerns

[Sernon]

Speaking as an outsider, here's how it seemed to be to me.

 

Allowing the influx of Jedi caused problems, two of the reasons are...

 

1) A number of people went though some pretty serrious grinding to unlock a Jedi prior to that, and after the change Jedi became just another class you could pick.

 

2) The Lore of that era does not allow for the number of Jedi you saw running around, because in that era there should be what less then like ten Jedi left in the whole galaxy, those left should be in hiding somewhere, because they're being hunted down.

 

Neither of those really applies in this case.

 

I see some of the exact same things that went on with SWG incoming quite fast actually.

 

One of them was to implement generic MMORPG mechanics at the expense of maintaining a thematically coherent universe, where you should expect them to stay on top with some resemblance of overall visual and rough game technical likeness to the fictional universe in question.

 

With this kind of thinking your experience gets more generic and can visually be placed neither here or there, as the mechanical solutions fueled by abstract needs, or individual demands, take precedence over the highly recognizable material you subscribed to in the first place.

 

It's all becoming very visually and thematically blurred, in the name of mechanical distribution of assets and even abilities in response to whatever technical goals that needs to be met, more or less despite the initial setting.

 

This was what SWG did wrong, and this is what is happening here right now.

 

---

Edited March 7, 2012 by Sernon

[Cancrizans]

I am gonna use logic. I know you are going to have a hard time following after all your posts on the crystals.

 

This is not Star Wars I-III or IV-VI.

 

This is TOR. This is the concept of Bioware. There is no lore for this timeline. That means that Bioware is making the lore for this era in the Star Wars universe as they go.

 

Your argument holds no water as there is no canon for this timeline.

 

With all your negative canon posts I suggest you move on to a different game. You are not happy unless it is canon and since OT canon cannot work for this time period I think you would be happy else where. I know I would be very happy with you else where.

 

Perhaps arguing with other game builders how incorrect their games are would be more your style.

 

For anything else I refer to my sig!

 

 

Lol. I think you should take a pointer from your own sig. Your attempt to "use logic" is an insult to the concept of logic itself. You said nothing of any meaning except "I disagree". Just because Bioware owns the license doesn't mean they are free to do whatever they want. Star Wars is not "their concept" simply because they bought a license to make an MMO based on the Star Wars franchise.

 

It is like this argument I've seen throughout this thread that basically asserts "well nothing in canon says this can't happen..." Ya, nothing in canon says we can't have trench coat wearing Unicorns who live under the sea and plan to dominate the world by spawning an evil legion of psychotic sea horses with eye lazerz either but does that mean it is ok to put that in the game?

 

Seriously people...

[RuQu]

 

It is like this argument I've seen throughout this thread that basically asserts "well nothing in canon says this can't happen..." Ya, nothing in canon says we can't have trench coat wearing Unicorns who live under the sea and plan to dominate the world by spawning an evil legion of psychotic sea horses with eye lazerz either but does that mean it is ok to put that in the game?

 

Seriously people...

 

Didn't they have those in Episode 1?

 

No matter what damage you try to think up, Lucas has already done worse.

[MadAmos]

so, the original post was a rant about races, which is purely an aesthetics issue as no one race is better than another race?

 

now there are over 30 pages regarding this one topic?

 

wow, that's pretty cool. people are pretty passionate about this game, good job Bioware!

 

you made a great game that people can play and have fun in!

[VanorDM]

Ya, nothing in canon says we can't have trench coat wearing Unicorns...

 

Yes because clearly having Sith defect, which has already happened at least once in this game, is the the same exact thing as what you list above.

 

But yet you go on about other peoples lack of logic.

[Derfmiolleh]

Non force users are being consumed by the dark side anyways.

Non Sith are using red light sabres

Sith purebloods are going to become members of the Jedi cousil.

Pasteurization is evidently the hallmark of a good story.

[Lord_Scythe]

Are the personal insults necessary? Are they part of the base on which you are building the aforementioned logical argument (that never appeared)?

 

The OP makes a logical argument.

 

He asserts:

 

1. Legacy will allow cross-faction race characters.
   
2. The numbers of cross-faction race characters will be large.
   
3. Large numbers of cross-faction race players will decrease immersion for him.
   

 

He concludes, based on the above, that the Legacy system will decrease his immersion.

 

He then asserts:

1. The Legacy system will decrease his immersion.
   
2. Decreased immersion will decrease his enjoyment.
   

 

From which he concludes that the Legacy system will decrease his enjoyment.

 

He then asserts:

1. The Legacy system will decrease his enjoyment.
   
2. Any system that decreases his enjoyment of the game is a bad system.
   

 

From which he concludes that the Legacy system is a bad system.

 

This is a valid logical conclusion, which means if his assertions are true then the conclusion must be true.

 

Now let's examine the assertions to see if they are true:

 

1. Legacy will allow cross-faction race characters.
   
2. The numbers of cross-faction race characters will be large.
   
3. Large numbers of cross-faction race players will decrease immersion for him.
   

 

1. This one is a fact.
   
2. This is speculation. If it proves true his conclusion is valid, if not, it isn't.
   
3. This is a personal opinion, and, as such, the conclusion will only apply to people who share it. I, personally, do not hold this opinion and I am not bothered by large numbers of characters of any race.
   

 

So far, we can conclude that if his speculation proves true, this system will decrease his immersion, but not mine.

 

1. The Legacy system will decrease his immersion.
   
2. Decreased immersion will decrease his enjoyment.
   

 

1. See the previous conclusion. Conditional upon 2 and 3 above.
   
2. This is subjective, but clearly holds true for him (and many of us, including myself). Accepted as true.
   

 

Through this point we see his argument is valid, assuming his speculation is correct and you share his views on species and immersion. Under those two conditions, his enjoyment will decrease.

 

1. The Legacy system will decrease his enjoyment.
   
2. Any system that decreases his enjoyment of the game is a bad system.
   

 

1. Again, this was found to be true, assuming his speculation is correct and you share his views on species.
   
2. This is generally accepted as true by definition.
   

 

So, logically, the OP has reached a perfectly valid logical conclusion based on two conditionals: that his speculation on the number of people playing cross-faction races is correct, and that your immersion will suffer from that increase.

 

The only way to debunk his argument is to disprove those two points.

 

The speculation is only that, speculation, and is just as valid as any speculation to the contrary. Only time will tell how many people want to play Republic Chiss and Purebloods or Imperial Miralaku or Mirialans.

 

The second is entirely subjective opinion. He considers the races to be fairly uniform in their politics, and thinks that the number of defectors, refugees, etc should be sufficiently low as to be confined to a few NPCs at most and not player characters. I, on the other hand, think that opening it up to players to create their own story, such as my Chiss refugee RP framework I described earlier, makes this a tool to increase enjoyment regardless of faction-species player demographics.

 

There is almost no way to change a players view on that second one. I have provided alternative ways of viewing those cross-faction race players, but if that troubles you it probably always will...and therefore you are correct to conclude that, for you, this is a bad system, while I am correct to conclude otherwise.

 

OP said

 

"It is lore breaking in the worst way and for the WORST reason: convenience. "

 

Show me where this is lore breaking? TOR lore is being written daily.

 

There is no gun forcing players to use these features.

 

The OP wants SWOTMMORPG and I am sorry but that is not what this game was intended to be. He wants it to be based canon. SWOT canon has changed. Many changes were done in the editing room. Lightsaber color of green for one.

 

"Lightsabers depicted in the first two released films, A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, had blades that were colored either blue (for the Jedi) or red (for the Sith). In Return of the Jedi, Luke Skywalker's newly-constructed lightsaber was colored blue during the initial editing of the film, and appears so in both an early movie trailer and the official theatrical posters, but the film reveals that it was ultimately colored green in order to better stand out against the blue sky of Tatooine in outdoor scenes and also in the re-release posters."

 

You can't use this breaks lore as an excuse because the "TOR" lore is being written by writers as we type.

[RuQu]

OP said

 

"It is lore breaking in the worst way and for the WORST reason: convenience. "

 

Show me where this is lore breaking? TOR lore is being written daily.

 

There is no gun forcing players to use these features.

 

The OP wants SWOTMMORPG and I am sorry but that is not what this game was intended to be. He wants it to be based canon. SWOT canon has changed. Many changes were done in the editing room. Lightsaber color of green for one.

 

"Lightsabers depicted in the first two released films, A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, had blades that were colored either blue (for the Jedi) or red (for the Sith). In Return of the Jedi, Luke Skywalker's newly-constructed lightsaber was colored blue during the initial editing of the film, and appears so in both an early movie trailer and the official theatrical posters, but the film reveals that it was ultimately colored green in order to better stand out against the blue sky of Tatooine in outdoor scenes and also in the re-release posters."

 

You can't use this breaks lore as an excuse because the "TOR" lore is being written by writers as we type.

 

His language was hyperbolic, reactionary and highly emotional.

 

Trimming that out, his point was that large populations of the enemy suddenly appearing as allies is jarring and, based on the cultures involved, contrary to his interpretation of the lore. This breaks immersion for him, and, thus detracts from his enjoyment.

 

Should he have phrased it better? Absolutely.

 

Do I agree with him? Not in the least.

 

Does he have a valid point? For those who will find large numbers of Republic and Chiss jarring, his point is valid. For others, it is not.

[IronJelly]

I read your first post as saying a removal of race/faction restriction would be more of a problem in SWG than here.

 

One of the advantages of this era is that Jedi are not insanely rare. In the era of the Original Trilogy tons of Jedi are just absurd.

 

I think a big problem, for both players and developers in games like this is that desire for individuality you are referencing. You see people complaining about others getting easier access to something they had to struggle for, as if it actually decreases the value of their achievement. There is that "I want to look/be special" mentality. Everyone wants to be the hero of their own story, but they are in a game where other people are experiencing the same story, and everyone is the hero, and they feel less special.

 

This system, if approached correctly, increases your individuality, not decreases it. Sure, to the other players on Carrick Station you are just "another idiot who hates lore" because you are a Sith Pureblood. But to you....to you you are an outcast from the Empire, who reached the Republic through some amazing turn of events that saw you turning your back on your people, your family, and your culture. Now you strive to make amends for the wrongs of your past, while constantly being tempted back to the Dark Side by your nature. You take up Smuggling and eschew the use of the Force...except occasionally Force Choking fools when the situation gets dire.

 

Does anyone else know that? No, unless you tell them. Does their opinion matter? No. Does yours matter to them? Not a bit.

 

Now, knowing that your Sith Pureblood Smuggler is a delicate snowflake of individuality and therefore acceptable, you are faced with a choice: Do you assume that you are the only one who rolled one with a compelling backstory that fits in the lore and everyone else is an idiot, or do you acknowledge that perhaps others are just as capable of playing that kind of character for a good reason?

 

The answer to that question says a lot about who you, the real you, are as a person.

 

^this.

 

So much this. My freedom to be creative in my storytelling has no bearing on you at all. if you're offended, go be offended somewhere else, since the person with the problem is you, not me.

 

As it stands, some of the currently available lightside choices you can make as a Sith are crossing the line of betrayal of the empire anyways. If you, a sith, can choose to betray the Empire, why couldn't you have made said choice years ago and fled to the safety of the Academy?

 

Besides, the legacy thing is one power, on a cooldown, that you may not even notice people using. Unless you get your amusement from this game in the form of inhibiting other people's amusement from this game, you need to just back off and go away.

 

I hav two ideas for how Bioware can solve this problem:

 

1) Make a few "lore friendly" servers where the legacy stuff is restricted. offer players a week before opening them that they can transfer characters to these servers for free. Then the complaining people have access to servers to play how they want, among people who also play how they want, while the rest of us play the game BW has been kind enough to make for us the way they intend for us to play it.

 

2) Offer a "generic" option, which a player can use similar to the ignore feature. Players on your "generic" list always appear, to you only, as a human with a neutrally colored weapon and random armour that would be appropriate at their level. That way, if my Chiss Sentinel with one red and one blue saber offends you, you can generic me, and never have to worry again since i'll always show up as a human with two yellow sabers on your screen when you play. I won't even know or be bothered, again, putting the burden, where it should be, on the one with the problem.

[cbowsin]

I think it is a good idea, thank you Bioware.

[Lord_Scythe]

Maby you should read up a bit on the canon then... because there IS plenty of canon for this timeline... Bioware cant do whatever they want.

They still have plenty of lore they have to live up to, and there is a full total of 2 known sith that were jedi in the entire known history of the galaxy.

This is because of the sith society structure of course, one that promotes the sith way of life, and its not going to be very nice or forgiving to citizens that think differently.

 

Also, those two sith were jedi ~36.000 years before the battle of yavin. Some 33.000 years before this game. And they were part of the Je'daii, the forefathers of the present jedi culture, they werent actual jedi... they practiced balance in theforce rather than what the jedi of today do. They embraced both the dark side and the light side as one.

 

For there to suddenly be a huge influx of Sith purebloods showing up everywhere in the republic would take some sort of massive event, like the discovery of a hithertoo unknown sith colony or something like that.

 

 

but of course you dont care... you just want to play a sith pureblood jedi because its "cool".

 

The OP does not consider anything lore other than OT he specifically said so in another topic. I am basing off much of my post off previous posts by this user on another topic as well as what he is saying here.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=337551&page=1

 

Feel free to go read the entire thing if you wish.

 

I know Lucas Arts has final say, I also know they have to review anything that could be canon changing. But lets face it, even original Canon changes. George has no issues changing things regardless of the feeling of his fans.

 

I will use features in the game when given them yes. If something offends me I won't use it. If something really offends me I will just quit the game. I will not go on the forums and demand they change them or see it my way!

 

I wish they still had polls for this type of thing because I have a feeling the community would support these change by a large margin over condemning them.

[DarkLordIceman]

I'm just hearing about this and I don't like it. I could understand Rattataki going Republic or Miraluka and Mirialins going Imperial or even a Chiss going Republic. But the idea of a Sith Pureblood going Republic...that just doesn't sit right with me. I'm sure there is the possibility of those one in a billion defecting, but I'd have to imagine it would be hard for a Republic to trust a pureblood.