End game PvP gear needs buff to stats/expertise

[Yare]

what gives me the impression lol? are you trolling? I got full rakata and full bm. Its more cunning and endurance on the rakata ones, and lower on BM pieces. Cant you see that.

 

I will any time take more cunning power than expertise. thats were expertise fails. Ppl go for higher stats? more dmg/HP than the expertise

 

Even the mods on champ gear is better than BM mods for some classes.

 

I go into WZ with full rakata. 19k HP unbuffed/800+ power/ 1800 cunning. Then i put on my BM gear with accrucy(fail) 17k HP undbuffed/ 730power/1650 cunning... HELLO??

Who wouldnt take 4 pieces of rakata in warzone instaed of BM gear?

 

Yes I can count and therefore know there is more mainstat and endurance on rakata gear than on BM gear. That however doesn't mean the rakata gear has better secondary stats, that rakata is better overall, and certainly not that Columi is in any way better than BM, all claims you've made in this thread.

 

It is your prerogative to choose to value cunning over expertise, just as it is your prerogative to come to these forums and talk about how underpowered your class is when it doesn't work very well.

 

As for the mods on BM, since they are literally the exact same mods that are on rakata you can't really call that a point in PvE gear's favor, can you?

[Yare]

I dont care to get into the argument again, but you end up with more eHP and more damage. Better? No. Almost a total wash? yes. Not to mention because of the DR almost all that expertise over 500 is a total waste.

 

honestly, people have expertise backwards. They th ink it is there to make PvP gear better for PvP - it isnt. It's there to make the easier-to-acquire PvP gear bad for PvE. If you never PvP and have full Rakata you can enter a WZ and hang with people in Champ gear (and, by extension, BM gear since it is a completely negligible stat gain over the entire set) with no trouble at all..

 

but if you're in full BM and trying to do Nightmare Mode ops - you're nothing but a giant liability.

 

And yes, the people who think Rakata is somehow itemized better when its the exact same mods/enhancements in every piece.. not sure where that comes from. Both sets are itemized like steaming dog poo.

 

DR on expertise, like all mitigation stats, is a lot gentler than you and other people seem to think. Also like that other poster said having 20% more health only grants more effective hp than having 12% more mitigation when you intend never to receive a heal, ever.

[Noctournys]

You only have more effective HP without anyone healing you, if you're PvPing without any form of healing - you're bad or solo queuing. If you want to argue there's an infintesimally small advantage to wearing PvE gear only when solo queuing and no healers on your team - you go right ahead. But lets not pretend it's anything else. As soon as you factor in any healing, eHP is vastly superior with expertise.

 

No, what i said (reading comprehension apparently isnt a big thing for you) is that Rakata is a wash with BM (you end up with the same or more eHP, and do the same damage, as a percentage of health to other players - even player in expertise), but that it is just that - a wash. Its not better. Its not particularly worse, even in a group setting. because Expertise doesn't affect healing you receive.

 

I additionally said that people have the wrong impression of why expertise was included in the first place.

[Noctournys]

DR on expertise, like all mitigation stats, is a lot gentler than you and other people seem to think. Also like that other poster said having 20% more health only grants more effective hp than having 12% more mitigation when you intend never to receive a heal, ever.

 

... no it isnt.

 

the falloff after 10.00% is stupidly extreme. I can go in-game right now and test it. I add 122 expertise and gain .75% mitigation. I add another 140, and gain .85%. The falloff is huge.. the only stat that falls off faster after its softcap is Surge.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Noctournys

[goulet]

is full pve better? No. Is it weird that their is appeal for pve gear in pvp over pvp gear? Certainly. I think on paper the idea is that you give up some of the pve stats for the gain in expertise, but the gain in expertise isn't equal to the gain in other stats on pve gear between one tier and the next.

 

champion gear despite having the same gear rating as columi armor, has less endurance and not by a marginal some. The difference is about 200 health per pieces of armor (columi has about 110 range, champion is 90). Meanwhile your expertise gain is so severely marginal there's no point to stack it past the 500-550 range.

 

Outside of that all stats are basically the same, the difference between my columi off hand and my champion offhand is that accuracy replaces expertise, all other stats are the same. Same for my main hand. But when you get into armor suddenly theres an endurance drop off and i dont understand why. You dont have a problem with weapons being equal in stats but armor suddenly suffers? how does that make sense. it's kind of hard to claim you dont want people using pvp gear in pve, when the opposite pve gear in pvp is common place.

[Haeso]

No, what i said (reading comprehension apparently isnt a big thing for you) is that Rakata is a wash with BM (you end up with the same or more eHP, and do the same damage, as a percentage of health to other players - even player in expertise), but that it is just that - a wash. Its not better. Its not particularly worse, even in a group setting. because Expertise doesn't affect healing you receive.

 

I additionally said that people have the wrong impression of why expertise was included in the first place.

 

What you said and what you think you've said appear to be different. Perhaps my reading comprehension isn't the best - but your sanity is in question.

 

I dont care to get into the argument again, but you end up with more eHP and more damage.

 

You're flat out wrong on the eHP with any form of healing involved, yet make no note of it - you mention none of the downsides and only the positives - what you believe you've said and what you've actually said are different.

 

You can't say "Here is why X is better than Y, but X isn't better than Y" and expect anyone to take you seriously, especially when you're wrong.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Haeso

[olagaton]

In my experience, PvE gear does give you a boost to your DPS, but at the cost of survival, and quite a bit. Expertise keeps DPS close enough to be competitive with PVE gear, but ups your survival quite a bit.

 

One thing people don't seem to realize is that DPS can be capped out, based on skill rotations, stats, etc. The increase in DPS from full BM to full Rakata (or Champ to Columi) is miniscule. However, since Defense is typically the neglected stat (both via gear, and via the mechanics themselves), the added Defensive aspect of Expertise makes a much larger difference between having it and not having it.

 

In short, the survival gained from Expertise is so much more valuable than the slight DPS increase gained from PvE gear.

[Yare]

... no it isnt.

 

the falloff after 10.00% is stupidly extreme. I can go in-game right now and test it. I add 122 expertise and gain .75% mitigation. I add another 140, and gain .85%. The falloff is huge.. the only stat that falls off faster after its softcap is Surge.

 

It's really not bad. Going from 500 expertise to 625 takes you from 10.19% to 11.79%, an increase of 1.6% which due to the nature of increasing returns on % mitigation actually increases your survivability by 1.78%, though this behaves in different ways depending on how much expertise anyone attacking you will have.

 

Despite the common consensus in the echo chamber here expertise is not like surge, which is capped at 80% now and so sees almost no returns past 300 or 350 rating.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Yare

[fantomjchx]

... no it isnt.

 

the falloff after 10.00% is stupidly extreme. I can go in-game right now and test it. I add 122 expertise and gain .75% mitigation. I add another 140, and gain .85%. The falloff is huge.. the only stat that falls off faster after its softcap is Surge.

 

 

I support u ,and the most intelligent thinking guy arround here.

 

Going ove 500 expertise is fail, you MUST have 4-5 rakata pieces to fit in ur main stats.

[Yare]

I support u ,and the most intelligent thinking guy arround here.

 

Going ove 500 expertise is fail, you MUST have 4-5 rakata pieces to fit in ur main stats.

 

Anyone who agrees with my preconceptions must be the smartest person in the room!

[fantomjchx]

It's really not bad. Going from 500 expertise to 625 takes you from 10.19% to 11.79%, an increase of 1.6% which due to the nature of increasing returns on % mitigation actually increases your survivability by 1.78%, though this behaves in different ways depending on how much expertise anyone attacking you will have.

 

Despite the common consensus in the echo chamber here expertise is not like surge, which is capped at 80% now and so sees almost no returns past 300 or 350 rating.

 

So wait 1.78% expertise on what? on 1500 willpower? So ur arguments are unlogical u just dont see it, look the pap will explain to you :

 

With full bm gear u have 12.78% and arround 1500-1550 willpower

 

With rakata/bm gear on 500 expertise u have 10% and 1710 willpower ( with rakata stim not exotech) that is so obvious 200 willpower > 2.78%

 

Dude its not only 200 willpower > 2 78% u get power alacrity boost from correct chooen rakata item...

[bamsmacked]

The PvP does need to get buffed. The expertise system seems broken with diminishing returns so really what's the incentive to stack up more and more expertise when you can't tell the difference? You just hurt yourself a lot with lower stats.

 

I have like 11.8% expertise on my Guardian and can literally tell no difference in dmg reduction or damage dealt then when I was at 6-8%.

 

I see people coming into Warzones with like 1.8% Expertise, have about 3-5k more health than I do, have much higher stats, surge and crit and consistently lead warzones in damage and heals.

 

The PvP gear is broken, people shouldn't be able to come into PvP situations in PvE gear and dominate with fewer deaths, more damage, and more healing than me when I'm in a full set of Champion or BM gear.

 

With the way it is right now, PvP gear is almost pointless. If you PvP a lot and work for PVP GEAR you should be rewarded in PVP. But no, if you work hard in PVP you don't get as rewarded in PVP because the PVE rewards are much greater.

Edited March 4, 2012 by bamsmacked

[Yare]

So wait 1.78% expertise on what? on 1500 willpower? So ur arguments are unlogical u just dont see it, look the pap will explain to you :

 

With full bm gear u have 12.78% and arround 1500-1550 willpower

 

With rakata/bm gear on 500 expertise u have 10% and 1710 willpower ( with rakata stim not exotech) that is so obvious 200 willpower > 2.78%

 

Dude its not only 200 willpower > 2 78% u get power alacrity boost from correct chooen rakata item...

 

Why do you act like the main part of expertise is the damage bonus? 500 expertise means you would be wearing 4 pieces of rakata. Even if you could squeeze 200 extra willpower from 4 pieces, which you probably can't even with synthweaving bracer/belt with augments and the matrix cube relic, you would in that case have sacrificed almost all of your endurance advantage over BM and would still be a lot squishier than a BM geared character.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Yare

[fantomjchx]

Why do you act like the main part of expertise is the damage bonus? 500 expertise means you would be wearing 4 pieces of rakata. Even if you could squeeze 200 extra willpower from 4 pieces, which you probably can't even with synthweaving bracer/belt with augments and the matrix cube relic, you would in that case have sacrificed almost all of your endurance advantage over BM and would still be a lot squishier than a BM geared character.

 

i found u little funny actually

[rzrknight]

Have fun pvping in full pve gear.

Maybe then you will understand how terribly wrong you are. The sum of all stats is EQUAL for rakata and bm gear. Difference is one trades end and man stat for exp.

 

Mixing gear is fine if you have already 550 exp.

You want to squish most out of your char? Start doing rest of the game.

PvP gear is fine.

 

You are COMPLETELY wrong there , a full rakata person , as long as only gear is considered , destroys a full BM player , it is not even funny to compare.

 

A columi player dont , a full BM indeed got an edge over a columi , but it is weaker by far than a rakata.

[Helbracht]

I agree here, I was thoroughly pissed to discover that PvE gear is actually leagues better than PvP gear. I've compared the stats piece by piece for Champion/Columni and Battlemaster/Rakata for the Juggernaut, it's not even funny how much better PvE is. Expertise is just a trash stat that has huge diminishing returns. So instead, Columni and Rakata get much more Strength and Endurance, meaning that PvE geared folks will be doing the same damage in PvP, but also have about 2-3k more health than people geared solely with PvP.

 

As a person who worked hard to get Battlemaster, I may not renew my subscription if this continues to be the trend. It's laughable how poor the Battlemaster armor pieces are, especially in comparision to Rakata. Just because I chose to focus on PvP instead of PvE doesn't mean I should get ripped off in terms of gear.

 

Either A) Increase base stats on PvP gear

B) Buff Expertise

or

C) Just get rid of Expertise and replace it with something more decent.

[AKfourtyseven]

or

C) Just get rid of Expertise and replace it with something more decent.

 

Expertise should be granted based on your valour rank and not tied to armour.

 

The more you PvP = the more expertise you gain.

 

Then PvP armour and PvE should have the same primary and secondary stats but very different set bonuses and tertiary stats (like PvP having higher surge and crit but PvE having much higher power).

[Helbracht]

Expertise should be granted based on your valour rank and not tied to armour.

 

The more you PvP = the more expertise you gain.

 

Then PvP armour and PvE should have the same primary and secondary stats but very different set bonuses and tertiary stats (like PvP having higher surge and crit but PvE having much higher power).

 

The PvP armor would still have to be adjusted to match PvE gear then, since PvE people would also be getting Expertise at that point, even if it's less.

 

I don't like obscure stats that only work in specific situations. I really don't like Expertise at all and I think it should be thrown out. But I don't really care how they do it, they just need to make Battlemaster gear worth the effort. Otherwise everyone should just PvE to get their Rakata and THEN pvp.

[nschlan]

For flat DPS and a 1v1 situation as DPS, from my testing Rakata is better by far. However, it does put a lot more strain on healers as you can't argue that Rakata gives you more survivability. That being said, the people I run with, our healer can handle keeping 3 of us up against 7 when we all (including the healer) have full Rakata. It really comes down to can your healer keep you up? If the answer is yes, full Rakata is better in my book (again, from a DPS perspective), although it requires a healer with enormous skill Edited March 4, 2012 by nschlan

[fungihoujo]

They don't need more expertise on gear... what they need is to take out the DR on expertise. The problem is that expertise just stops giving a boost of note after a while- on the other hand, your main stat and most side stats don't, or, at least, you can mix important ones that have more of a boost on pve gear to bypass DR (ie- if you get to the point where surge is giving DR, you can focus on crit, or accuracy/alacrity).

 

 

Having better 4 set piece bonuses on pvp gear could help too...

 

Another thing is, endurance should be the same on pvp gear, if not higher- this is the first game I've ever seen where pve gear gives more health than pvp gear.

Edited March 4, 2012 by fungihoujo

[Nishifumi]

I agree, the DR needs to come off of expertise or the curve needs to be much less steep. Already putting some Rakata pieces on makes PvP better at high levels. I just noticed my full BM set was not as good as if I put in rakata pieces but I need the set bonus... for some classes they get a very big boost from their rakata 2 piece... I don't so I can't swap them till I can swap the set bonuses (or armoring).

 

I'm also a little upset at the amt of alacrity on high end pvp/pve gear as far as the enhancements but I assume that'll change soon with the changes to artifice.

 

Please put in a less steep DR curve on expertise so the next tier doesn't make us use 5 pieces of pvp gear only and farm pve gear for the better stats (not that I can't do that but it's one step closer to full pve being better than pvp).

 

-Nish

Edited March 4, 2012 by Nishifumi

[WasabiJack]

Please keep in mind, the 12.8% dmg reduction and damage helps heals.

 

So for example, you can't compare 12.8% damage reduction to 12.8% more health. They are not equal obviously.

 

With damage mitigation, you have less hp so you need less heals to top you up.

 

I really don't want them to fix this issue until they look at the set bonuses. Right now, I "HAVE" to wear rakata/columni to get that two piece bonus of 15% crit chance on a frequently used skill.

[Nishifumi]

That's my point that 15 percent bonus is huge for your class my 2 piece sage dps set is crap for pvp. Assume this keeps going the way it is going and the next two tiers will make pve gear better than pvp (after putting on pvp implants/ear/weapon/offhand anyways for the 10.5-11 percent or so).

 

-Nish

Edited March 4, 2012 by Nishifumi

[Haeso]

I agree, the DR needs to come off of expertise or the curve needs to be much less steep. Already putting some Rakata pieces on makes PvP better at high levels. I just noticed my full BM set was not as good as if I put in rakata pieces but I need the set bonus... for some classes they get a very big boost from their rakata 2 piece... I don't so I can't swap them till I can swap the set bonuses (or armoring).

 

I'm also a little upset at the amt of alacrity on high end pvp/pve gear as far as the enhancements but I assume that'll change soon with the changes to artifice.

 

Please put in a less steep DR curve on expertise so the next tier doesn't make us use 5 pieces of pvp gear only and farm pve gear for the better stats (not that I can't do that but it's one step closer to full pve being better than pvp).

 

-Nish

 

You'll never be able to swap the set bonuses without keeping the expertise. The armoring that holds the set bonus has the expertise on it, didn't you know that?

[GZgunner]

Seriously you guys only see in a tunnel! Exp shines in large group combat, of course one on one its NOT going to make up for large stat differences BUT when you getting blasted by 6 guys ( and I know some of you rather enjoy that) then the reduced damage taken really shines.

 

Remember its group combat not your little I got 450k damage party and Exp its the **** in grp combat. It reduces damage from ALL players not just the one your engaged with.

 

 

sigh