DarthBeviin Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 My Sith Inquisitor has a bit of a crush on Khem Val (weird, right?), although I'm fairly certain he will never be a romanceable companion. I could definitely go for Andronikos as a second choice though. I'm glad to hear they'll be removing the heterocentric coding sometime this year though! More choice in an MMO is always a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocentone Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 It's boring waiting for the writers to add this, seeing how its gonna be months before anything is added . Then of course you gotta wonder which ones will be used for sgra. Already have Elara, Risha, and soon Kira wanting to talk to my characters. I'm having to avoid talking to them until this is added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattymikelson Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Completely support this page It's alot easier just to make everything bisexual, although I completely support "Option 3" since it would actually allow people to choose whether or not they are interested in relationships, expanding it for the younger community, or at the least taking heat off from that area which is a nice side effect. And Vette.. my love for you will never die and knows no bounds! No 'no flirt options' will stop me! (your mistress is coming! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusedMoose Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Sorry for a bunch of quotes that reach back pages, but I can't access this site from work. ...that's probably for the best. Oh, I've been watching you(Mused) in several incarnations of this thread, and I can safely say that you are supportive. My husband is the same way; he probably won't play SGR, but he's a fan of diversity. He likes having the choice available. Thanks. I didn't think it would really be an issue, but this is the internet and things can easily be misconstrued. Off-topic, but quick: Mused, do you post comments on videos for the Nostalgia Critic? The name is pretty distinct. I don't... Is there an imposter out there somewhere? Must be someone with just a similar name, as a search for "nostalgia critic musedmoose" got no matches. Ah, well. Personally, I got the impression with the "we already know who we're making SGRAs" that they are intending it to be current companions. It's possible some (or all) new ones could be available for SGRA but unless they are adding a LOT of them (which, I doubt), then it's far more likely imo that we'll see the option opened up for current ones. I got much the same impression. To go into deep sentence analysis mode, saying that they already know who they're making available for SGRs really does imply that the characters already exist. I might be misinterpreting, but I think it would have been phrased differently if the SGRs were all going to be done with new characters. And since, as you pointed out, there's literally only one female companion for many classes, I'm inclined to think those are going to have to be opened up for SGRA. Especially given how some of them react to the other companions. Admittedly I've played (to 50) one class with one female companion and one with two and in the class with only one (JK) that one female seems a lot more likely for SGRA than the females in the other (smuggler) though that may just be a weird personal perception thing. And that "one female companion = SGR open!" thing is what I'm hoping for. As for others, I only just got Akaavi on my smuggler, and I've hardly used Risha as a companion at all, so it's hard for me to say how either of them might work for SGRs. Risha does seem like an open sort, though that could just be the front she puts up. As for Akaavi, all I can say is that I'd feel very, very sorry for anyone who rejects her advances. It's boring waiting for the writers to add this, seeing how its gonna be months before anything is added . Then of course you gotta wonder which ones will be used for sgra. Already have Elara, Risha, and soon Kira wanting to talk to my characters. I'm having to avoid talking to them until this is added. A lot of us are in the same boat, as I'm sure you know. I think that, as the story update gets closer, BioWare will let us know both who's available for SGRs and how they're going to work out. It's my hope that the mechanics of affection (2013 tour tickets available now) will allow people to have their SGRs without having to restart the characters. Though if Kira's a SGR for the JK, I'm probably going to reroll my JK just to have romance available from the start. ..and to get 24 levels' worth of Legacy experience. What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaenna Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I think I'm most concerned for my BH, Sith Warrior and Jedi Knight. As they are the the ones I've advanced the most. I'd hate to have to start them over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raiellyn Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I'm just worried now that some classes might get screwed over in choices. I've been adamant about getting Dorne for F/F romance, but after reading a few posts, it makes sense that she's almost a shoe-in unless they fork in new companions for the trooper. (Which I sincerely doubt, unless we're going to be waiting until December 31st 2012 for this patch... ) But what about classes like the Agent? She has Kaliyo and Temple. And I have an itching feeling that only one of which will be bi... And I know it's going to be Kaliyo. For some reason, they always make the crazy, psychotic anarchists the bisexual. So, I'm now throwing in my full support for the sweet and lovely Miss Temple for the SGRA choice, if it comes down to having only one. And come on. "Teaching her how to seduce a target"? And she enjoys the "lessons"? If Bioware didn't make that quote in September, I could seriously mistake her for an early-on s/s romance arc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kioma Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 unless they fork in new companions for the trooper. (Which I sincerely doubt, unless we're going to be waiting until December 31st 2012 for this patch... ) Well, like I said. They might have companions already half- or three-quarters built and just didn't have them complete at launch. We've been working on the assumption that any new characters would have to be started from scratch and that's not necessarily the case; they may have unfinished characters just begging for a good insertion. So to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusedMoose Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Okay, everybody, I've found what's mostly a transcript from the Guild Summit panel. Many thanks to Darth Hater: http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19973-guild-summit-stream-live-blog/page-10 Q: Any update on same gender romance? Daniel: It is coming and it is coming with story updates. It is something that depends on the writers and we want to do right, and writers have a long lead time. We did not want to just change all the dialogue for the other gender. That is not writing, that is not story telling. This was cut originally because of budget and time issues. We have designs, we know what romance options we want to put in for this. It is coming when full story comes, and full story is coming this year. We are still on track. Slightly edited for homonym confusion (changed "do write" to "do right" in the second sentence). Kioma, any chance you could add this to your post on the first page? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kioma Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Kioma, any chance you could add this to your post on the first page? Pff, no. Well, okay. Since it's you, MusedMoose. I wouldn't do this for just anyone, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamaranis Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 It is the act of demanding answers, particularly in the form of, "Answer or I quit." type commentary that were the crux of my original post. ...and you made use of the term "entitlement." No one is of the opinion that Bioware MUST answer, that it is the law or that karmic forces will destroy them if they don't obey our whims, or anything like that. But not answering is firmly outside the bounds of "polite." So while I am not entitled to an answer, Bioware is not entitled to my money. What is so terrible if I cancel my subscription? What is so unreasonable about that? For that to be unreasonable or unjust it would have to be true that Bioware is entitled to my monthly subscription fee. They are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamaranis Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Okay, all caught up. Wow, get busy for a week or two and catching up on this is quite the task. ...there was good news in there, though! I was getting all set to cancel my subscription 'till we heard something substantial. Seems to me like an apology for the initial omission and lack of communication would have been appropriate. Expected, even. I'm a little miffed that they didn't. But I'm not actually gay and was outraged over moral principles/I'm a surly git and for the most part the actually gay and bisexual participants of this thread seem happy with the response. So I'm gonna go ahead and take that as a reasonable way to feel about this rather than rushing off on some crusade on no-one's behalf. I will say, to the people who are not happy and have left the game at this point: I'm surprised at the level of positive reaction to the information we got. I'm glad to see it, but I think I can understand why it's not good enough for some people and I don't think your reaction is unreasonable. EDIT: And a relationship with Aric is way less creepy than one with Elara, anyway. Edited March 8, 2012 by Tamaranis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nozybidaj Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Okay, lets get the obvious stuff out of the way first. Same gender romance options are not inherently bad story telling. That's just a cop out for the delay and shows ones own ignorance and prejudices in regards to the content. First lets look at examples, and then come back to more abstract ideas. Some of our favorite Bioware romances by the TOR dev's definition are now "bad story telling". Sorry, but I'll just go ahead and flat out say, they are wrong. In ME1 we had Liara, the romance arc for Liara whether you were a man or a woman were exactly the same, line for line. Liara's romance arc wasn't magically great story telling for male Shepard while also mysteriously being bad story telling for female Shepard at the same time. Either the story telling is good or it isn't. Whether my on screen avatar is shaped like a man or woman doesn't effect the story telling one bit. In DA:O we had Leliana and Zevran. Again, the dialogue options, the voice overs don't change at all (aside from I think a single line or two) whether the Warden is male or female. The important thing is the character of the Warden, who you've made your Warden out to be that is important, not the character's gender. The quality of the story telling doesn't change simply because we swap a different body model in or out. SW:TOR, much like ME and DA, the player character is the same person regardless of gender. Female Shepard's and Warden's attitudes, speech, dialogue options and voice overs, their responses to NPC's, their entirety of what makes up those characters is exactly the same as male Shepard/Warden. They are one and the same character. Our characters in SW:TOR follow the exact same principals. I don't get different dialogue options playing a male Jedi Knight compared to when I play a female Jedi Knight. The character isn't presented with any differences in attitudes, tones, insights, beliefs, NPC's don't respond differently based on gender or treat the player character any differently (except strangely for flirt options), they are in effect the same person. I don't get different quests just for being a male or female, I don't get treated differently by quest givers, I don't get treated differently by the Jedi Council, enemies don't go easier on me if I can bat my eye lashes at them, shop keepers don't give me better prices because I can flash a little leg, non-romance companion dialogue doesn't change just because I can grow a beard, no where in the game is the player character ever treated any differently, not a single word differently based solely on gender (except for flirt options). The only difference between a male JK and a female JK in reality is the shape of the onscreen avatar. They are, regardless of gender, for all intents and purposes the same person. So why this sudden division when it comes to romances and flirt options? Why when it comes to the romances are the characters no longer supposed to respond to the player based on the attitudes, the beliefs, the dialogue choices, the affection meters, and all other traits and measurements the player has created and molded during their personal story and respond instead based on the shape of the onscreen avatar? It's honestly a bit insulting. Every trait that makes up what the Jedi Knight is stays the same regardless of gender. But the romances are somehow supposed to be different based on gender? Why? In the context of the universe our characters exist in I can't see same gender romances being an issue anyone even thinks of or considers. This is a universe where inter-SPECIES romances are not considered strange or even uncommon. When someone see a Human and a Twi'lek walking hand in hand somewhere it isn't a scandal. I find it hard to believe that two people of the same gender engaging in a romance would even raise an eyebrow or be a cause of comment. So why are our companions, our trusted followers and shipmates of all the people in the TOR universe, suddenly supposed to act differently based on the gender of the PC, and only act differently when the content and dialogue is romance based? Whether Bioware realizes it or not, that is saying that same gender romances need to be treated as something other than a "normal" romance, that something "different" has to occur, that the two characters have to treat their romance as something abnormal from the way the opposite gender romances treat theirs. What is (or at least should be) important is the "character" of the character. Not what that character's on screen avatar is shaped like. I hope to god Bioware isn't planning on adding a "gay moment" to all the same gender romances, because that is what this is feeling like to me. That instead of the companion fawning over the opposite gender PC and throwing themselves at their feet that they are going to make the companions reluctant and opposed to the same gender PC's the whole way through the game until they have their big "coming out" moment, then like a light switch next conversation you're getting married. That is most certainly not good story telling. I can't find any way to look at that other than outright insulting, that BW assumes that two characters in the story can't just have a "normal" romance if they happen to be of the same gender. Whether they intend it or not doing this BW would clearly be showing their own prejudices and how they "think" a same gender romance should be instead of just telling us a romance story they think is a good one. So yes, long rant there, but BW saying that companion romance for an opposite gender character is "good story telling" but that the same story for a same gender character is "bad story telling" shows pretty clearly to me that they have no grasp of the content they are about to attempt to implement or what the folks waiting on this content are looking for. Not once have we ever been asked to be treated "differently", all we've ever wanted is to be treated equally. I get the feeling that even now that Bioware realizes this missing content is an issue they need to fix that they are going to do it in the completely wrong fashion. If Bioware thinks they need to go back and re-write all these companions for additions of same gender romances they are going to have to be very very careful in how they do it, even more careful than when just crafting a romance story without considering what gender the PC might be. This could very easily turn ugly when they are letting their own prejudices guide them in the implementation of this content. Now then, since they've already said they are doing this, then they damn well better be completely different stories. If we are being forced to wait possibly a year out from launch for this content to be added to the game, for the community to finally be allowed to experience all aspects of the story and be included fully in the game experience, and possibly even have to pay extra for the content via an expansion pack, the same gender romances better be freakin' literary master pieces. I better not see any repeating dialogue or content through the romance specific arcs for the same gender romances. They said they need to be different, then I better be getting fresh content out of this. And yes I am going to check and see just how many differences we end up getting. /sigh Bioware is still tracking down a very wrong direction here, their comments at the Guild Summit show to me a pretty fundamental lack of understanding of the content and a mostly cavalier nature to the importance of it and the issues it causes their players in even just being able to play the game and go through the content. Just how many months do I need to wait before I can even start playing my characters here? I honestly don't see anything encouraging from what was said, and I don't see this ending well unless Bioware really starts to listen to the feedback we are giving them on this issue and starts taking this issue seriously and stops treating the content as something that needs to be handled differently from what they see as a "normal" romance story. Even after all of that we don't really know anything more than we did before except "sometime in the next 10 months" and "maybe some existing companions". Which are both vague enough to be easily dismissed if deadlines slip or opinions change. Edit: And yes, I reactivated my subscription just to say that. $15 is a lot less important to me than possibly getting through the dev's thick skulls and getting this content implemented correctly. Edited March 8, 2012 by Nozybidaj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gekko_s Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) I don't know how many lines are different for Zevran and male vs female avatar, but if it was just two, then that's probably because Zevran was written intentionally for that purpose. I do know the mod that makes Alistair romancable by a male avatar changes many dialog lines, and it still felt a little off, but maybe that was just because I knew it was a mod. Anyway, I agree with Bioware that there's more to it than just changing the personal pronoun. They don't have to change the personality of the companions, but when it comes to romance dialog there can be many subtle references to gender beyond a personal pronoun. For example, if a male companion in a flirt were to compliment me on my forms as a male, it'd break my immersion. I remember some comments like that in ME2, only towards the NPC and not the avatar. So I'm happy that they're going through the dialogues with a goal to "do it right". I hope they get it right. I don't think it has to be a lot of work with lots of changes, but the details can be important. Edited March 8, 2012 by gekko_s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gekko_s Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Originally Posted by Daniel Erickson Q: Any update on same gender romance? Daniel: It is coming and it is coming with story updates. It is something that depends on the writers and we want to do right, and writers have a long lead time. We did not want to just change all the dialogue for the other gender. That is not writing, that is not story telling. This was cut originally because of budget and time issues. We have designs, we know what romance options we want to put in for this. It is coming when full story comes, and full story is coming this year. We are still on track. I had thought or imagined that they said, with regards to wanting to do it right, something along the lines of some/many companions not having personalities suitable for being turned into a SGR option, but now that I read it, it looks like they're just saying that the job of making a companion a SGR option involves more than just changing the gender in the dialogue. That makes sense to me. With that, I'm more inclined to believe there will be 16 SGR options, but I'm still a bit wary of getting my hopes up too high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luhrsen Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Well said Nozy. Exactly how I feel about it. Edit: Just to add, some people have said they need to change things like a male accidently being called beautiful or a female being called handsome. But it's not all that strange. Especially for an effete male consular or a burly female bounty hunter. Edited March 8, 2012 by Luhrsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeJay Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Actually, some of Leliana's lines are different. I find her F/F romance very sweet, by the way. In any case, consider this: gender may not be important for our characters but, romance wise, it's important for our LI. Some LIs like the girls, some LIs like the boys. Pretending that Corso is straight only (hahahahahahaha) and you ask him to chose between M!Smuggler and F!Smuggler to get cozy in his room, he'll say F!Smuggler because he just don't like them *****es. I understand your point and you made a very good job explaining the nuances of it, but in the end it boils down to how the writer thinks the companion should be. If Corso's writer (I think Jennifer Hepler wrote his romance, kudos to her) wrote him as straight (hahahahahaha), s/he may think that a M/M romance needs to have a different impact on the Corso/M!Smuggler relationship than the one we see in the Corso/F!Smuggler one. (I, hm, don't really know how to express myself. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lashknife Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 ...and you made use of the term "entitlement." No one is of the opinion that Bioware MUST answer, that it is the law or that karmic forces will destroy them if they don't obey our whims, or anything like that. But not answering is firmly outside the bounds of "polite." So while I am not entitled to an answer, Bioware is not entitled to my money. What is so terrible if I cancel my subscription? What is so unreasonable about that? For that to be unreasonable or unjust it would have to be true that Bioware is entitled to my monthly subscription fee. They are not. I did make use of the term, yes, and I stand by my (albeit poorly worded) usage of it. The thing is, you are correct. Your money is yours to use how you see fit. That's your prerogative and I'll be the first to support your ability to do that (assuming it's, you know, mostly legal). However, that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. As this particular discussion ended a few pages back, I won't fully jump back in to it. Needless to say, if you wish to discuss this further we can do so in PMs. :] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocentone Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 One thing that puzzles me is with updates/expansions would you think that the affection cap would be increased to give more cut scenes? I mean certain classes that I've seen tend to seal the deal with marriage when capped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeJay Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) One thing that puzzles me is with updates/expansions would you think that the affection cap would be increased to give more cut scenes? I mean certain classes that I've seen tend to seal the deal with marriage when capped. They probably will add more flirting options. That said, I always thought they kinda wrote themselves into a corner or didn't really planned that far ahead when they implemented the marriages. But that's just me. Edit: I also think that something so closely related with our society like same sex relationship's portrait in media is a little bit more important than bigger health bars. But that's just my opinion, no need to spread it around. Edited March 8, 2012 by LeJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nozybidaj Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Well said Nozy. Exactly how I feel about it. Edit: Just to add, some people have said they need to change things like a male accidently being called beautiful or a female being called handsome. But it's not all that strange. Especially for an effete male consular or a burly female bounty hunter. Obviously I think they'll change things like that, but the implications that the stories need rewritten top to bottom, that the writer lead time is holding this all up, that it is going to take massive amounts of new VO, months and months of dev time, etc., etc., are more what I was aiming at. More the implication that the romances all need completely redone, not just adjusting a few specific lines so they make sense. And of course the not so subtle implications that same gender romances are "different" than "normal" romances. It's all either a crock made up to try and excuse the amount of time this is taking or simple ignorance about it in general. What is important is the "character" of the character, not the gender. I'd be impressed if they were spending this effort to write different romances for say a LS and DS PC instead of having the defining difference between the romances be gender. There is a far greater difference between a LS Male Jedi Knight and a DS Male Jedi Knight and the way a romance companion should react to that than there is between a LS Male and LS Female JK. Those kind of character defining traits should be what matters in how a romance unfolds. Especially within the context of the setting. I didn't get the impression at all from what was said at the Guild Summit that the TOR devs can implement this content in an equal and satisfying way at the moment. They are clearly setting out with the thought already in the front of the mind that same gender romances are something that should be looked at as "different" instead of just looking at it as a romance in general. Actually, some of Leliana's lines are different. I find her F/F romance very sweet, by the way. I don't remember any. If there were they were less than a handful and insignificant in the overall romance. Not something that the writers went out of their way to rewrite the the whole romance over. Edited March 8, 2012 by Nozybidaj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcaptainpants Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Seems to me like an apology for the initial omission and lack of communication would have been appropriate. Expected, even. I'm a little miffed that they didn't. Tamaranis...THANK YOU! I am so glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way. That's what keeps me from reactivating my sub. Not out of pure spite; I just feel that if they honestly don't think they handled this situation badly, then I don't trust them not to handle things badly in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silthir Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) I'm kinda late, but that's because I was just focused on getting on male for SGRAs, everyone else be damned, but now that I've had time to think here's who I think should be SGR Male- Sith Warrior: Malavai Quinn Sith Inquisitor: some new unimplemented companion Jedi Knight: Doc Jedi Consular: Iresso Imperial Agent: some new unimplemented companion Bounty Hunter: Torian Smuggler: Corso Trooper: some new unimplemented companion Female- Sith Warrior: DS Jaesa, mostly because she seems to enjoy the pleasures of "forbidden" arts Sith Inquisitor: some new unimplemented companion Jedi Knight: Kira Jedi Consular: some new unimplemented companion Imperial Agent: Raina Bounty Hunter: Mako Smuggler: Akavi Trooper: some new unimplemented companion Edited March 8, 2012 by Silthir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparklecat Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 So why are our companions, our trusted followers and shipmates of all the people in the TOR universe, suddenly supposed to act differently based on the gender of the PC, and only act differently when the content and dialogue is romance based? Whether Bioware realizes it or not, that is saying that same gender romances need to be treated as something other than a "normal" romance, that something "different" has to occur, that the two characters have to treat their romance as something abnormal from the way the opposite gender romances treat theirs. How I read the statement was actually that there are differences between how someone relates to a male and how they relate to a female; however, that hardly improves matters. I am concerned about this as well, about why they feel that simply switching the pronouns and doing a little editing for consistency would be bad storytelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natashina Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) How I read the statement was actually that there are differences between how someone relates to a male and how they relate to a female; however, that hardly improves matters. I am concerned about this as well, about why they feel that simply switching the pronouns and doing a little editing for consistency would be bad storytelling. I'm curious about that too. Is it a matter of changing pronouns, or are they trying to write new story arcs? Ah, the joys of speculation! My theory is that they wanted to make sure it was done right. I'm personally just hoping that they manage to avoid any negative stereotypes. If that means waiting another couple of months, I'm okay with that. However, it doesn't seem fair to those that bought the game with having the relationship they want in mind. Edit: I know we've had some trolling in here. Just flag and move on. Edited March 8, 2012 by natashina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lashknife Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I'm kinda late, but that's because I was just focused on getting on male for SGRAs, everyone else be damned, but now that I've had time to think here's who I think should be SGR Male- Sith Warrior: Malavai Quinn Sith Inquisitor: some new unimplemented companion Jedi Knight: Doc Jedi Consular: Iresso Imperial Agent: some new unimplemented companion Bounty Hunter: Torian Smuggler: Corso Trooper: some new unimplemented companion Female- Sith Warrior: DS Jaesa, mostly because she seems to enjoy the pleasures of "forbidden" arts Sith Inquisitor: some new unimplemented companion Jedi Knight: Kira Jedi Consular: some new unimplemented companion Imperial Agent: Raina Bounty Hunter: Mako Smuggler: Akavi Trooper: some new unimplemented companion Female Trooper companion could easily be Elara. She flirts with the female trooper, but you can't reciprocate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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