Nerfing Sage healers is NOT a solution

[blarse]

and at lvl 38 i have yet to find a single Aoe heal.... tho i do see one possibly useful aoe at the top of my skill tree...

 

Every healing class only has one AOE heal, and the Sage/Sorc one is indeed the 31 point talent

[Ezren]

Having my sage at 50, and playing both smuggler and commando types up to 40's I think I can say with a fair amount of certainty that there is a serious problem with the healing.

 

I just dont know how BW let the development get done with it being in the shape it is, and having a straight face when saying "scoundrels/operatives are fine"

 

I prefer the scoundrel. I like the whole package, from attitude to looks to having stealth. They desperately need a few things done. Sages may need nerfed just to keep balance otherwise, and thats NOT really a bad thing for long term health of the game, since something has to give one way or the other.

 

As it stands now, sages have 2 direct heals (the only thing really balanced about them compared to the other healers), one HoT, one AoE, one channeled heal AND a bubble. Nothing can compare to that. The other classes need things added or sages need something taken away. Period. I would prefer things added, and subsequent content balanced around having 3 strong healers, but if thats not possible....nerf away.

 

If diagnostic scan fpr scoundrels was changed to have 9 second cool down, and heal as much as the sage channeled heal it would be a good start. If emergency medpac is REALLY the scoundrels "burst" heal it should be a bigger amount healed, to compare it more to the totally OP bubble.

 

Sages never worry about force. I know people "claim" they have to monitor when to use noble sacrifice and balance out the GCD blah blah blah. I can say with no qualms its bull. Once your all talented up, even if you need to burst heal your heart out as long as you resume your standard rotation before your under 30% or so, your just fine. Scoundrels are locked into not only an energy system but a varied regen speed also. Take away the varied speed. Rebalace energy costs, cooldowns and other stuff to compensate....but take it away. That will go a long way to rebalance the disparity. Ammo/heat should get the same treatment.

 

Sages have it easy for tracking regen and procs also. There isnt really ANYTHING to keep track of aside from watching your heals to see that crit on your channeled heal so you can noble for your force, which most healers do anyway. Compared to upper hand tracking for scoundrels its night and day. The 'giggle' helps somewhat but its not as clear as SEEING the crit heal and knowing its there. You have to look at the tiny buff icons all the time, making sure you have 2 and not 1 so your healing output doesn't drop by a chunk by using the 1 you always need to keep for bonus heal percent. Keeping 2 stacks up for pugnacity and EMP when needed isnt really hard, its just overly tedious compared to the cake walk sages have. If upper hand lasted 30 seconds, and refreshed the timer for each charge dropping off and stacked to 3 it would be less of a chore to deal with, also a UI element for tracking would be awesome. Anything but the teeny tiny buff icon.

 

I wont even touch the AOE heal thing, since even trained monkeys can point out with sign language that they know sages are so overpowered in that department its not even funny. Kolto clound needs to hit more people, and be changed...which it sounds like in 1.2 it will be.

 

 

TL;DR The only way sages are balanced compared to the rest of the healers is in the direct heals, and I think BW has tunnel vision about them. They see that, and think its fine. Get some employees who play scoundrel/operative or merc/commando healers full time on your dev team stat BW. You really need them.

[Shizuha]

I guess my short point is that scoundrel and commando healers suck, as so many of you say, just in different words, so why make sages suck too? Everybody sucks, everybody happy? No, everybody unhappy. So, make scoundrels and commandos rather better so no one will suck, okay? thank you, BioWare. And it's not that they'll be OP, just balanced. Edited March 4, 2012 by Shizuha
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[Ezren]

I guess my short point is that scoundrel and commando healers suck, as so many of you say, just in different words, so why make sages suck too? Everybody sucks, everybody happy? No, everybody unhappy. So, make scoundrels and commandos rather better so no one will suck, okay? thank you, BioWare.

 

I agree that the other healers should be brought up to the level of the sages. However, sometimes a dev team looks at a situation like this and goes the other direction, with the overpowered class being brought down to the level of the others.

 

As is right now, a scoundrel or a commando CAN heal everything in game, so if sage is nerfed down, they to CAN do it. It will just be as hard on them as it is on the others now.

 

Personally I think it would cause a healer shortage, cause sages are SO used to be overpowered at this point that a nerf would be the bad way to go, so a boost to the others is the only way out. This in turn raises the prospect of all current content being even easier than it is now.

 

So its a balancing act, they may do some slight nerfs and some big boosts to try to even everything out. If sages had been on par with the other healers out of the gate I dont think we would be having this problem now. Everyone would be used to how healing worked and no one could see how easy sages have it and feel ripped off.

[Ezren]

 

Oh, and sages will be nerfed, it's in the patch notes. They won't be able to gain force power without losing health anymore, plus the aoe will only hit max 4 targets. Which sucks, because one sage wouldn't be enough for many instances/boss fights anymore. And when you think about what I said about the limit of 4 people in the group earlier and how it's almost necessary for a group to consist of one healer, one tank and 2 dps so that many of those boss fights can be won, this patch change is ..useless, if nothing else.

 

The patch notes said nothing about gaining force without losing health. It said you cant "game" that by stopping the cast on the channeled heal for free nobles AND keeping the buff for one of the other benefits from it. A normal played sage will not notice that difference at all.

 

I also havent seen anything about a 4 person limit on sage AOE. Its always been 8 and still is and still will be as far as i know.

[Walldorf]

My guilds agents and Bh healers heal as well and easy as the sorc healers. When the raid is finished, everything is cleared and nobody died.

 

They can heal the same content as a inqui can AND wear medium and heavy armor what everybody is forgetting about ^^.

 

Allright, lets say agent and BH should heal as well as a inqui, but after all they should wear the same armor... robes ^^.

 

Everbody is complaining about the heal output but noone take a clear look at the basics.

 

PvE wise this thread MAY be correct, in PvP the whole world is different. A BH in heavy armor with the same heal output like that guy in his frock.

 

i say "Fix the Bug!" it won't change anything for me, but if BH heal as well as Inquis everbody will play BH because they a superb after such a "fix" ^^.

[subrosian]

The Sorcerer and Merc are both more desirable to play than the Op.

 

The Sorc has a full toolbox and large resource pool. This does three things: rewards smart play, allows you to be the hero, and makes the class rewarding to play. The OP has a tiny toolbox and resource pool. The besr OP never deviates from their rotation until Adrenaline Probe is off CD.

 

I won't even log into my Operative anymore because of how burned out I was of doing the same healing endlessly, and feeling powerless to heal in crisis situations.

[Diewoe]

I always laugh when i see people talking about the Sages bubble. It pops on the first hit 90% of the time. Then there is a 20 second timer before he can bubble himself or the target again. Nah bubble isn't OP its not like the Pally bubble was in WoW where they are completely immune for its duration lol.

 

As the Game sits the Jedi/Sith Healers are the best when fully specced into the healing with at the very least 31 points in the healing tree. This leaves 10 points that if used correctly can get you to increase the damage bubble absorbs by 20%. This allows the bubble in most cases to servive 1 hit but then it only reduces the damage taken on the next hit and not by much as again it pops. this is almost like the OH SHEET button after someone like a Stealthing Back stabber knocks you down stun locks you and gets you below 50% health before you gain control of yourself again. Allowing you to heal IF and only IF they dont interupt your LONG cast times.

 

I have played a smuggler healer and sure their heals are not even close but they also have stealth and vanish AND medium armor. Smuggler healing does need some love though. So do Commando's healing ( HEAVY ARMOR ) but you don't go nerf the only healing class that seems to work pretty much perfectly. Remember a fully specced healer Jedi/Sith can't do a huge amount of damage so they have to rely on their survivability ( Light armor might as well be naked ) as they hit you with 1 instant cast attack with a pretty long CD and Dot's. When every i see people crying about These two classes being OP i instantly say "Stealther" they want their Instant kill pwned yo face moment back.

 

Smuggler healers though WOW... they can't do diddly for damage. They might as well be shooting you with a water gun and their heals are not good enough to allow them to servive against a well played stunlocker/heavy DPS class. They need to sneak around heal and hope no one see's them healing their team mates. I don't think that is working as planned The AoE heal is also nothing big. if you are fighting people and are in a tight bunch and you see the Icon on the ground what do you do 99% of the time? you MOVE to avoid whats coming. If you stand there and don't move please tell me what server you play on so i can reroll a BH/TR on that server for some awesome Damage numbers

Edited March 4, 2012 by Diewoe

[Ezren]

Everyone using the armor difference as reason for the sages being sickeningly more powerful needs to look at reality. 5 to 10% difference in armor does NOT make up the difference in healing power right now. Sages are overpowered compared to the others REGARDLESS of armor types.

 

Also, in case the whole vanish thing pops up again for smugglers/operatives as a bonus....its not really useful for a heal spec. 10 seconds where your heals do -0- healing is not something you can afford.

 

Anyone saying bubbles are powerful either dont know how to use them effectively, or are just ignoring the power they have. Being able to cast it BEFORE damage comes in, and have it mitigate it before its ever taken is so much more powerful than any heal or HoT is right now.

[Diewoe]

I have no problems killing a Sorc/Sage 1 on 1 that is a healing spec. Their bubbles meh only a small hic-up and a Grav round from my Commando or TR from my Bh and POP its gone just like that. Or on my smug, they can't get a heal off and if they try to run meh they find that they are slowed so much that their 3 seconds force speed did not do them any good as i am right back ontop of them.

 

Are we really seeing this many plss poor PvP people? What happens to a Sage when you attack him? he tries to kite you and no longer is healing his team. During this time YOUR TEAM still has their active healer. The fact that i see people crying about it and not looking at it as a TEAM proves this is all about 1 on 1. Like i said i kill healers all the time. Sages are easier for me to kill than a commando healer. So does that mean they are OP too?

 

get off your high horse's and admit your failings. If you can't kill a Sage/Sorc 1 on 1 thats ok not everyone can and not everyone you face will be a great player but while you are attempting to kill him, your team because of you, just got a huge lift as the other team lost its heals. You may die but how long do you think that healer lives when he turns around after killing you to be faced with your 3 or 4 team mates that are still standing because the healer had to worry about himself and couldn't heal his team?

 

Please go play a Seer at lvl 50 and then see how OP you really are. Many of you prob played one but have not got to 50. At 50 you are not a class that can stand toe to toe with any DPS. Sure you can sit there heal and kit and run until help comes but you will not have a chance to do much if any damage. Is it the class thats OP or is it that many of you do not and can not understand HOW to fight a healers spec? I do believe its the latter.

 

 

I see nothing OP about Sage/sorc HEALING spec. Now you want to talk about hybrid that is not HEALING spec. You want to talk about their damage ? that is not HEALING spec.

[Kissakias]

I have no problems killing a Sorc/Sage 1 on 1 that is a healing spec. Their bubbles meh only a small hic-up and a Grav round from my Commando or TR from my Bh and POP its gone just like that. Or on my smug, they can't get a heal off and if they try to run meh they find that they are slowed so much that their 3 seconds force speed did not do them any good as i am right back ontop of them.

 

Are we really seeing this many plss poor PvP people? What happens to a Sage when you attack him? he tries to kite you and no longer is healing his team. During this time YOUR TEAM still has their active healer. The fact that i see people crying about it and not looking at it as a TEAM proves this is all about 1 on 1. Like i said i kill healers all the time. Sages are easier for me to kill than a commando healer. So does that mean they are OP too?

 

get off your high horse's and admit your failings. If you can't kill a Sage/Sorc 1 on 1 thats ok not everyone can and not everyone you face will be a great player but while you are attempting to kill him, your team because of you, just got a huge lift as the other team lost its heals. You may die but how long do you think that healer lives when he turns around after killing you to be faced with your 3 or 4 team mates that are still standing because the healer had to worry about himself and couldn't heal his team?

 

Please go play a Seer at lvl 50 and then see how OP you really are. Many of you prob played one but have not got to 50. At 50 you are not a class that can stand toe to toe with any DPS. Sure you can sit there heal and kit and run until help comes but you will not have a chance to do much if any damage. Is it the class thats OP or is it that many of you do not and can not understand HOW to fight a healers spec? I do believe its the latter.

 

 

I see nothing OP about Sage/sorc HEALING spec. Now you want to talk about hybrid that is not HEALING spec. You want to talk about their damage ? that is not HEALING spec. [/color]

 

game isnt only pvp, sages are OP in pve and stop using yellow

[bruced]

Nerfing Sage healers is not a solution. I find sages' skills just good and enough for doing what I need to do as my class right now, any less would not be enough anymore. Making them any worse or weaker would only make things worse. If you want to balance the difference between the different healer classes and their abilities and power in healing, make the others better: better heals and better abilities. There is no reason to make sages worse. Many instances are already hard enough now and the available gear barely keeps up. I'm sure you have heard about this from other players too.

 

I hope bioware starts listening to their 13 yr old player base. Because that is your age right OP? You don't have to ask how I know. Your ability to use logic, grammatical structure and lexicon all reflects that either of a very poorly educated man, or a pubescent teenager. You remind me of a poor child who just discovered a jar of candy, took it and then realized that now your parents are going to move it again, so trying to reason out how to not have it moved.

 

Your post cannot be taken seriously on a few accounts:

1) You claim that the current content is hard, and by nerfing sages, it is no longer viable. You are wrong. No current content is hard to heal, for any classes, simply because this game is not healing intensive (except for maybe the platform part for scoundrels.) As long as you are running with competent people. But I guess if the idiom birds of a feather flock together holds true, you are indeed surrounded by incompetence.

 

2) You say if all class "sucks" no one will be happy. That is untrue. I would be giddy as hell if sages are nerfed. That way my GM wouldn't stack 3 sage healers and toss 1 scoundrel healer in there for kicks. As I said, it is true that all content is currently clearable with any kind of healer, as most are dps checks more than heal checks. But it doesn't make sense for sages to be rewarded by being the easiest class to play with the most rewards

 

3) I don't care THAT much about a buff. Sure I want ALL my skills to be useful (KP and KC are just not worth it) but I welcome the challenge, and I think many would say the same. What I DO care about is that sages don't get easymode and the ability to pretend that they are good or aren't overpowered, or any form of rationale that says that this game is fair and balanced.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Paralassa
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[Pixel-Pusher]

Buff to one class will inevitably feel like a nurf to another. QQ is an inevitable consequence.

[Sinemetu]

I'm not sure where you get they don't have to worry aout when to use what or how quickly they are regening force?

 

First off they rely on crit, to use there noble sacrifice without penalty, then having to keep up on the cooldown (which is on the GCD) to get the force back, means not only am I watching health bars, buffs/debuffs on every other character (as well the the field of battle), that i also have to keep track of if another buff pops (with a limited time on it), and then use a GCD to get that force back...Oh and it only works off one heal, which is a channeled spell so you must be uninterrupted and then crit off of one of the ticks of the channel....so hmm...

 

I'd suggest rolling a sage/sorc first lvl to 50 and get some gear, then come back and make statements. Making a statement with no actual knowledge of the playstyle nor what happens, detracts any crediblity to statements and for lack of a better term makes you a Troll... If you have a sage/sorc rolled and maxed out then I detract my statement, and explain in better detail why you believe they do not have to worry about what to use hwne or how quickly they are regaining force...

 

It's relative, Alilynn. I have a 30ish sage and a 50 operative, and let me tell you, your force management >>>> operative/merc resource management. I mean, you don't even have to think about it for the first few hundred force points--mercs and ops have to constantly be aware of their resource levels. Noble sacrifice leaves a 10s debuff; stacked 4 times you regen 0 force. If I drop below 40 energy, I regen at 2/3 the rate--and that's about three casts in a row. Two, if one is my aoe. Getting back out of a hole (short of using a 2 minute cd) requires channeling an ability that heals for ~170 hps and requires 4 talent points to make it worth using at all and still doesn't help a lot. Your aoe uses something like 1/10th of your force pool, mine uses 3/10.

 

To make a long story short, although sages *can* get into resource troubles, the other classes get into trouble much more quickly and it's much more devastating when they do.

[Semiskimmed]

if sorc's/sage's are nerfed its just going to make the situation worse for everyone...

im all for bringing the other healers up to equal strangth though, thats a better solution for everyone!

[Sinemetu]

if sorc's/sage's are nerfed its just going to make the situation worse for everyone...

im all for bringing the other healers up to equal strangth though, thats a better solution for everyone!

 

Don't know why that would be, unless you assume that everyone is already running with sorc healers. Here's the thing: if you, like many others, believe that mercs and ops are basically fine and can heal all the content, then why shouldn't sorcs get nerfed? It's pretty obvious to most everyone who has taken the time to compare the healing classes that they're just better.

[Kveldur]

If they dont increase the cost of some force abilities in 1.2 I will lose hope for BW, uncanny how sages/sorc have unlimited resources and if you say otherwise your playing your class wrong.

[Daize]

Nerf is inc or BW really doesn't know what they are doing.

[Semiskimmed]

Don't know why that would be, unless you assume that everyone is already running with sorc healers. Here's the thing: if you, like many others, believe that mercs and ops are basically fine and can heal all the content, then why shouldn't sorcs get nerfed? It's pretty obvious to most everyone who has taken the time to compare the healing classes that they're just better.

 

quite the opposite actually, i do believe the other healers need significant changes to be boguht up to the same levels as sorc's.

the other classes are obviously noticing theyre not as strong, so why make every healign class struggle to heal well when you can just increase everyones healing to the same level. it makes no sense to have every healer equally poor...

[bruced]

quite the opposite actually, i do believe the other healers need significant changes to be boguht up to the same levels as sorc's.

the other classes are obviously noticing theyre not as strong, so why make every healign class struggle to heal well when you can just increase everyones healing to the same level. it makes no sense to have every healer equally poor...

 

Because no one is actually struggling to heal anything, your heals are just faceroll easy

[Semiskimmed]

Because no one is actually struggling to heal anything, your heals are just faceroll easy

 

so if no one is struggling, why is there such an outcry about sorc's being OP? if all is well in your yard, why whine about the neighbours? isnt all healing faceroll if no one is struggling according to you?

also, i must play with some really poor players as from my perspective they do need some buffs in raids (i dont bother with this games PVP so dont comment on that, if thats why people are moaning then possibly change how healing works in pvp but its already reduced as it is...)

[RuQu]

quite the opposite actually, i do believe the other healers need significant changes to be boguht up to the same levels as sorc's.

the other classes are obviously noticing theyre not as strong, so why make every healign class struggle to heal well when you can just increase everyones healing to the same level. it makes no sense to have every healer equally poor...

 

I think you missed the key point of Sinemetu's post.

 

Can the content be cleared without a Sage/Sorc? Yes.

 

Are Sages/Sorcs so good that they make any content far easier if run with them? Yes.

 

Therefore, since non-Sages can do it, the problem lies in the huge advantage that comes from a Sage, not the disadvantages that come with the others...therefore nerf Sages.

 

Sinemetu's argument is sound, even if you are anti-nerf.

 

Personally, I say up KB to two targets, double the tick rate of KC, add smart-healing to the two of them, and reduce Salv to 85% of its current healing and that should bring them very close to parity while maintaining a mobility tax. KB would go from 52% of Salv now to 61%, KC would jump from 38% to 44% from the Salv nerf, and then to 88% from the doubling of the tick rate. The higher value than KB seems fair (to me, a Commando) due to it being HoT based with often results in over-healing and people can die before all the ticks land. Finally, the two capped abilities will always be at a massive disadvantage until smart healing is added, since Salv always heals the people who need it most (by healing everyone) and the others do not.

[Semiskimmed]

im only going off my own experiences when in ops with other healers. to say sorc's arent in a good position is idiotic but surely we should be wanting the other healers to be bought up to a similar level as sorc's but whilst maintaining there pro's and con's of each?

having said all i have, it may be i am playing with people who cant play very well but if anything happens to our sorc healers during a fight at a critical point you can forget about getting anywhere. and im just thinking that if sorc's werent the way they were then it'd be even harder to get through these fights.

[bruced]

so if no one is struggling, why is there such an outcry about sorc's being OP? if all is well in your yard, why whine about the neighbours? isnt all healing faceroll if no one is struggling according to you?

also, i must play with some really poor players as from my perspective they do need some buffs in raids (i dont bother with this games PVP so dont comment on that, if thats why people are moaning then possibly change how healing works in pvp but its already reduced as it is...)

 

As someone else said, but I will say it again, if content is easier with 1 class, why bring another. In my guild, which wishes to participate in competitive raiding, I will say if there was a sage of equal level to me, they will be taken before I am, because as an Operative, my healing output isn't the same. Yes both of us can clear the content with ease, but that's because we are both geared now. But when you have fresh content, it will be easier and more lenient on mistakes for a sage. And I agree you most likely play with poor players as most of the game's current content is DPS checks, not heal checks.

[Hexxas]

I think they should look at the balance , i mean come on , troopers own the pvp and you can do anything about them , sarge surely have way to high healing on their spells , honestly this game looks more and more like it should never have been released, it should be a beta game still , and what about the pvp bot , dev team do something about them im tired of running into a bot team in pvp , finde a way to shut down Viper and Idroid and the game be much better place !