Are the Jedi not following the code?

[Comfterbilly]

Here's the deal: the Jedi Code is intentionally hypocritical. Don't kill, unless you have to. Always think the situation through, unless you don't have time. Theft, deception and fraud are fine, as long as it's with a righteous aim, but remember you're not above the law.

 

This is because the Jedi serve the Force first and foremost, and the Force's will doesn't necessarily fit any kind of code you put around it. It's a vast energy field, it doesn't have a sense of something like ethics, or laws. The Jedi Code is an attempt to keep Jedi on the straight and narrow while serving the Force and serving the Republic.

 

In fact, trying to be a Jedi can be a nightmare sometimes.

 

But usually, the Sith are kill-on-sight. It doesn't matter if you're a 'good' Sith, or a reasonable one; by following the Sith code and aligning yourself with the Dark Side, then any Jedi'll see you like an eco-warrior would see a guy tipping crude oil into the sea. In a way, that's... kind of what you are. Trying to redeem dark-siders is applauded, if it can be done; but in a time of war, with the Dark Side washing all over the galaxy, the Jedi aren't in a position to take many chances. And the Force is probably alright with that.

 

Disagreeing with the sage words of Shinybum as respectfully as possible, I have to say this here is almost the worst description of Jedi Philosophy that I could possibly imagine; its hard to see how any interpretation could be more off track than that.

 

"Don't kill unless you have to; always think the situation through unless you ... don't have time? Theft and deception are fine? The ends justify the means?"

 

To the extent that its still possible, I'm stunned, but I'm not surprised you find trying to be a Jedi a "nightmare".

 

What is it by your logic that separates Jedi from Sith? JUST hypocrisy, or self-delusion too? Yoda would have you doing push-ups for the first 3 years of training.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Comfterbilly

[Shinybum]

Disagreeing with the sage words of Shinybum as respectfully as possible,

 

Oh, I like you.

 

I have to say this here is almost the worst description of Jedi Philosophy that I could possibly imagine; its hard to see how any interpretation could be more off track than that.

 

It makes sense to me in that he talks about an ideal - a noble one, and one I personally would love to be able to live up to - that I've seen collapse over and over in the storyline as both Agent and Inquisitor. I don't immediately recall any "What the..." moments from the Consular storyline, though I've only got him to 40 or so and haven't quite reached Belsavis yet. That should be an interesting visit, from what I hear.

 

What is it by your logic that separates Jedi from Sith? JUST hypocrisy, or self-delusion too? Yoda would have you doing push-ups for the first 3 years of training.

I wish I could say otherwise, but I do think there are more than a few Jedi who should still be on Tython for their own and the Republic's good. Mind you, I think there are a lot more Sith who should be locked up and kept away from sharp objects for acting like pantomime villains who were never disciplined as children and seem to have developed a sideline in collecting personality disorders.

 

War, sadly, means you need more troops on the field. That tends to mean you can't pick and choose candidates the way you might want to, and training needs to be truncated so they can be shipped out to the front lines before the enemy overwhelm your positions. This means that discipline and standards can slip when the chips are down.

 

A true Jedi Master would indeed be a paragon, acting calmly to find peaceful resolutions wherever possible and only drawing their lightsaber as the last resort. All the ones I've killed in the story itself have drawn on me first and most of them called me all kinds of names before doing so. I'm pretty sure several have even yelled, "DIE!!!" at me mid-fight, too. Not so much with the peace and serenity, methinks.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Shinybum

[smartalectwo]

What is it by your logic that separates Jedi from Sith? JUST hypocrisy, or self-delusion too? Yoda would have you doing push-ups for the first 3 years of training.

 

Selflessness is usually the difference. That, and a great deal of self-knowledge. Breaking the letter of the Code is permissable so long as you fully understand why it's wrong, and why you're doing it.

 

The reason I say it's difficult to be a Jedi is that they live in two worlds. There's a world of spiritual energy, and there's a world of material obligations, rules and difficulties. Being a Jedi is walking the line, trying to reconcile the two and stay balanced without falling. And sometimes, that's not easy at all. This is why the Council tend to prefer to do nothing; because once they do something, it usually leads to some sort of awkward moral, ethical, legal and philosophical brain-twister.

 

There's a fair few examples in the movies of this sort of thing. Qui-Gon's the obvious offender: using his powers to take a seagoing transport from the Gungans, and later to try and trick Watto (twice!). It's easy to say that he was taking the easy, quick path. And from a spiritual standpoint, you'd be right. But from a material one, there were just too many lives at stake - his mission, and the discovery of the Chosen One, were too important.

 

Presumably, he'd considered the issue calmly, knowledgably and serenely, and decided it was justified. Likewise, say, Mace Windu deciding to kill Palpatine in cold blood, or the Jedi deciding to take control of the Senate - definitely ethically and morally wrong, but in the service of the Force and the galaxy as a whole, it was the only thing to do.

 

Edit: as far as things like 'theft, deception and fraud are fine, as long as you're acting in the service of something greater', that's straight from the Jedi Code commentaries in the Star Wars RPG books!

Edited March 8, 2012 by smartalectwo

[Comfterbilly]

Oh, I like you.

 

 

 

It makes sense to me in that he talks about an ideal - a noble one, and one I personally would love to be able to live up to - that I've seen collapse over and over in the storyline as both Agent and Inquisitor. I don't immediately recall any "What the..." moments from the Consular storyline, though I've only got him to 40 or so and haven't quite reached Belsavis yet. That should be an interesting visit, from what I hear.

 

 

I wish I could say otherwise, but I do think there are more than a few Jedi who should still be on Tython for their own and the Republic's good. Mind you, I think there are a lot more Sith who should be locked up and kept away from sharp objects for acting like pantomime villains who were never disciplined as children and seem to have developed a sideline in collecting personality disorders.

 

War, sadly, means you need more troops on the field. That tends to mean you can't pick and choose candidates the way you might want to, and training needs to be truncated so they can be shipped out to the front lines before the enemy overwhelm your positions. This means that discipline and standards can slip when the chips are down.

 

A true Jedi Master would indeed be a paragon, acting calmly to find peaceful resolutions wherever possible and only drawing their lightsaber as the last resort. All the ones I've killed in the story itself have drawn on me first and most of them called me all kinds of names before doing so. I'm pretty sure several have even yelled, "DIE!!!" at me mid-fight, too. Not so much with the peace and serenity, methinks.

 

Respectfully again, an ideal that is 'easy to live up to' is not much an ideal at all.

 

Jedi are not really 'troops to fill the field'; most Jedi in this game are just indulgent force users running around with light sabers.

 

I'm sure Smart. is a good guy but parading that philosophy as a Jedi ideal... Maybe his toon is a Sith that killed a Jedi and now masquerrades as one? That is a completely undisciplined, indulgent attitude.

 

What if Obi Wan had that attitude? He would've been like, "Waiting around on Tattoine takes too much time! I don't feel like hovering around until I'm old making sure Luke doesn't get killed... hell I feel like getting laid, yes, the force is with these cantina prostitutes... Obi Likee fine young T'wileks.' (lol)

 

The value of the code is that it calls on what's best in you to sacrifice all you have to give, to submit your desire to higher wisdom. Without the code there is no path to the force. Think about Luke Skywalker - even though he broke the code to do it, the most selfish thing he did in his life as a Jedi was to risk it all to save his father (and he did).

 

How did he save his father? By risking his own life, refusing to be converted, vulnerable to Palpatine; this self sacrifice awakened the mercy in Vader's heart, and by doing that, Palpatine was destroyed by the only one who could have done it, which is why it is a beautiful story.

 

Without the code the only way to the force is desire, passion, love/lust, pride, all the things that lead to hate (and make a Sith). A lot of times these things wear a 'fair cloak' that seems decent; but when you step back you realize it only seems so because that's just what part of you wants to hear (the part that wants ideals to be easy to achieve). But these things don't make a Jedi.

 

Disclaimer: I'm very interested in theology but not personally religious.

[smartalectwo]

Respectfully again, an ideal that is 'easy to live up to' is not much an ideal at all.

 

...

 

I'm sure Smart. is a good guy but parading that philosophy as a Jedi ideal... Maybe his toon is a Sith that killed a Jedi and now masquerrades as one? That is a completely undisciplined, indulgent attitude.

 

I'll agree, in that it's not the ideal; it's the reality that Jedi have to confront. The galaxy won't let them be a saint every time, and still save everyone. Even the greatest Jedi master is still flesh and blood, and a small, insignificant thing to boot.

 

The discipline is in knowing and accepting that, and still trying to do your best to stick by the Code. Even though you know it'll never give you all the answers. You gotta have faith.

 

EDIT: Maybe a way to illustrate this sort of thing would be drawing on an in-game example. Republic Coruscant spoiler incoming:

 

 

There's a quest on Coruscant that involves you helping a group of concerned citizens steal the diplomatic mail of a Senator whose agenda is that of seperating from the Jedi and allying with the Sith Empire. Someone comes along and points out - rightly - that doing so is completely subverting the diplomatic process.

 

So the choice is: steal the mail anyway (Dark Side) or give it back and take some fake documents instead (Light Side).

 

On the face of it, it seems clear-cut. But... hang on - how can letting a Senator with this kind of agenda possibly be in the interests of the Jedi Council, and the Force? I have responsibilities to them as well as to the Republic.

 

So even though it's a Dark Side choice, I steal the documents. After considering the issue as emotionlessly, knowledgably and serenely as I could, it seems to be the best choice. Best to sabotage this kind of thing, rather than let it breed some later badness.

 

Taking that approach - trying to measure what's best for everyone while considering the Code, and not just clicking on the Light Side button every time - my character's Light 3. So it can't be that bad an approach... can it?

 

Edited March 8, 2012 by smartalectwo

[Comfterbilly]

I'll agree, in that it's not the ideal; it's the reality that Jedi have to confront. The galaxy won't let them be a saint every time, and still save everyone. Even the greatest Jedi master is still flesh and blood, and a small, insignificant thing to boot.

 

The discipline is in knowing and accepting that, and still trying to do your best to stick by the Code. Even though you know it'll never give you all the answers. You gotta have faith.

 

EDIT: Maybe a way to illustrate this sort of thing would be drawing on an in-game example. Republic Coruscant spoiler incoming:

 

 

There's a quest on Coruscant that involves you helping a group of concerned citizens steal the diplomatic mail of a Senator whose agenda is that of seperating from the Jedi and allying with the Sith Empire. Someone comes along and points out - rightly - that doing so is completely subverting the diplomatic process.

 

So the choice is: steal the mail anyway (Dark Side) or give it back and take some fake documents instead (Light Side).

 

On the face of it, it seems clear-cut. But... hang on - how can letting a Senator with this kind of agenda possibly be in the interests of the Jedi Council, and the Force? I have responsibilities to them as well as to the Republic.

 

So even though it's a Dark Side choice, I steal the documents. After considering the issue as emotionlessly, knowledgably and serenely as I could, it seems to be the best choice. Best to sabotage this kind of thing, rather than let it breed some later badness.

 

Taking that approach - trying to measure what's best for everyone while considering the Code, and not just clicking on the Light Side button every time - my character's Light 3. So it can't be that bad an approach... can it?

 

"Much to learn, you still have..."

 

Those are a lot of easy answers you've effortlessly grabbed hold of there.

 

I respect the fact that you have a genuine interest in learning about the Jedi. I'm not here to question your instincts; hope they steer you right; just could not pass your earlier post without pointing out some things.

 

My big complaint is that the story of this game is supposed to be about a struggle between 'the light' and 'the dark'; but its conceived so poorly, the entire conflict is pointless - its like a one-sided argument with no dimension, thought, or real understanding of what good and evil really mean. What is a hero? What is a villain? A petty, pointless villain is a meaningless caricature, one that's impossible to be sincerely threatened by. The mindless killings have no impact on the player or the reader because its just a writer's childish fantasy. Same with the 'heroic' deeds; they mean nothing; there is no emotional impact, because this is not really a story about a hero, instead its a story so void of depth that its impossible to care.

 

For a two faction game, the lack of dichotomy is an embarrassment, especially for Star Wars. The light side/dark side struggle should be the best part of the game... but really its not even there.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Comfterbilly

[Meharial]

For all their talk of honour and good behaviour, a couple of Jedi gems.

 

First, chapter two of the Agent storyline...

 

 

You're brainwashed and programmed to obey anyone using a trigger code. The Jedi in charge of the unit you're infiltrating has no problem with using it again and again, even though he says he believes your motives are honourable. No offers to help remove the programming, just a straight, "I have a backdoor to make you obey me and I've no problem using it."

 

 

Then there's the end of the Inquisitor storyline on Alderaan...

 

You've talked to Master Organa, convinced him to help you and he's given you both the key to the vault you're after and his promise that he won't interfere. Naturally, therefore, he shows up with a couple of Padawans when you actually go to the vault in question, calls you all kinds of names and attacks even as you're trying to talk him down.

 

...And Khem Val has a delicious mid-afternoon snack.

 

 

In my experience, the Jedi talk a good game and throw every principle out of the window as soon as they leave the temple. I've yet to meet one that doesn't give in to their hatred, and death is the price of their hypocrisy.

 

Come to think of it, there's a beautiful line that comes up if you run BT after you've finished the SI's chapter one...

 

 

When you talk to the Padawan at the end, there's a conversation choice that comes out as, "My first Master tried to kill me, too!" She, of course, takes this as proof that the Sith are evil and her order are entirely right to want to commit genocide on them all over again.

 

 

ETA one more. In the (LS) Ashara affection line...

 

Ashara offers to talk to a Jedi Master about the fact that you're a decent guy, not all Sith are evil and there might actually be a chance at peaceful coexistence. He throws her out and won't even listen to her, because she's associated with a Sith. So much for calmly assessing the situation before action!

 

Well for Ardun, he explicitly says that he's a "failed" Jedi, as in, not part of the Order and probably hasn't been for a long time. And for Ashara, he changes his mind. Organa is a jerk, no two ways about it, but in the end all Jedi are imperfect. Which is a surprise, I know.

[Shinybum]

Respectfully again, an ideal that is 'easy to live up to' is not much an ideal at all.

 

Quite right. We are all fallible, and many of us fail to meet the standards we expect of ourselves from time to time. I know I do, and I try to do better when that happens. My point has been that the Jedi I have encountered in the game have failed to do so as well.

 

Jedi are not really 'troops to fill the field'; most Jedi in this game are just indulgent force users running around with light sabers.

 

On the first point I'm inclined to disgree, since I see them deployed with troops all over the place, seemingly to act as a counter in case of... well, me. On the second, I couldn't agree with you more.

 

I'm sure Smart. is a good guy but parading that philosophy as a Jedi ideal... Maybe his toon is a Sith that killed a Jedi and now masquerrades as one? That is a completely undisciplined, indulgent attitude.

 

I didn't read it as an ideal, more as a statement of the sad reality outside the temple walls.

 

What if Obi Wan had that attitude? He would've been like, "Waiting around on Tattoine takes too much time! I don't feel like hovering around until I'm old making sure Luke doesn't get killed... hell I feel like getting laid, yes, the force is with these cantina prostitutes... Obi Likee fine young T'wileks.' (lol)

 

The value of the code is that it calls on what's best in you to sacrifice all you have to give, to submit your desire to higher wisdom. Without the code there is no path to the force. Think about Luke Skywalker - even though he broke the code to do it, the most selfish thing he did in his life as a Jedi was to risk it all to save his father (and he did).

 

How did he save his father? By risking his own life, refusing to be converted, vulnerable to Palpatine; this self sacrifice awakened the mercy in Vader's heart, and by doing that, Palpatine was destroyed by the only one who could have done it, which is why it is a beautiful story.

 

Without the code the only way to the force is desire, passion, love/lust, pride, all the things that lead to hate (and make a Sith). A lot of times these things wear a 'fair cloak' that seems decent; but when you step back you realize it only seems so because that's just what part of you wants to hear (the part that wants ideals to be easy to achieve). But these things don't make a Jedi.

 

I'm not going to disagree with any of that. The Jedi as they describe themselves are a noble order. The unfortunate truth (since it's experiential and entirely subjective I can't call it fact) seems to be that the Jedi currently being deployed from Typhon really could use that extra three years of push-ups with Master Yoda.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi's choice to sit out his best years on a watching brief in the back end of nowhere was a noble one, effectively giving up his life for the greater good just as much as accepting death at Vader's hands so Luke could escape and carry on the fight. Luke's courage later is likewise laudible and can be held up as an example of someone risking their life to hold to a belief in something greater than themselves.

 

When the Jedi live up to their standards they are heroes in both spiritual and martial senses, and I really wish we could see more of that in the game.

 

Disclaimer: I'm very interested in theology but not personally religious.

 

Me too, and I very much appreciate being able to discuss this rationally. Thanks for taking the time to give such a measured response.

[smartalectwo]

For a two faction game, the lack of dichotomy is an embarrassment, especially for Star Wars. The light side/dark side struggle should be the best part of the game... but really its not even there.

 

All true, all true.

 

I admit, I come from the background of the SW pen and paper RPGs. And there, there is no 'Light Side'. The term doesn't come up in the movies. There's just the Force (calm serenity), and the Dark Side (chaos and turmoil). Morally or legally wrong actions performed calmly and serenely, in the service of preventing chaos or turmoil, are seen as fine in the eyes of the Jedi - as long as you get away with it, and don't bring the name of Jedi into disrepute in doing so.

 

The trick is in knowing yourself and the Force well enough to spot when you're doing things selfishly, to make your life easier, or when you're being led by your emotions without realising; rather than having the bigger picture in mind. That's why it's easy to Fall, it's a thin line. The only way to succeed is to be selfless enough and wise enough to stand the test.

 

It's a very different approach than the Light Side/Dark Side approach - the pen and paper games don't have Light Side points, only Dark Side ones. And I agree that the LS/DS approach is a little simplistic. This is why I'm going with the interpretation I'm more used to.

 

Edit: You use a good word when you refer to 'instincts'. It's about having the right instincts. Being a Jedi is more about intuition than rigid code.

Edited March 8, 2012 by smartalectwo

[Shinybum]

Well for Ardun, he explicitly says that he's a "failed" Jedi, as in, not part of the Order and probably hasn't been for a long time. And for Ashara, he changes his mind.

 

I stand corrected. I don't recall the changing mind, though, only subsequently dealing with a splinter group who were prepared to give her a fair hearing.

 

Organa is a jerk, no two ways about it, but in the end all Jedi are imperfect. Which is a surprise, I know.

 

No surprise at all. It does point out the difference between the talk and the walk, though.

[rigormortua]

The only exceptions to the romance rule are the characters you play and the person you're involved with because you're obviously strong enough to have such emotional attachments and still overcome the dark side of the force.

 

everyone else is destined to fall lol

 

oh dam the last time I had more dark than light points HHHHHMMMMMMM!!! SO that is why!! j/k:D

[RealPopalot]

The Jedi Code makes perfect sense. I follow the Jedi code in real life. Not because I am weird or dorky. The Jedi have good morals in their code(s). If you read about them you will be shocked how amazing and beautiful the writing of Jedi Masters are. Truly life changing.

[Dracorya]

When it comes down to it, both Codes are flaws. The Jedi and Sith are two extremes that are just...bad.

 

"Everything should be taken in moderation, including moderation itself." Cutting yourself off from the world is bad, but so is drowning yourself in it.

 

Honestly I feel that Luke's New Jedi Order was the closest to actually being functional in its Code and actually making SENSE.

[NightEngine]

You can't feel compassion without emotion, so with no emotion, there is no compassion.

 

This isn't true. Compassion is not an emotion itself. Now it does require empathy but that isn't exclusive to emotion, either.

 

In the end, it doesn't matter, because the original mantra that later became the Jedi code read:

 

Emotion, yet peace.

Ignorance, yet knowledge.

Passion, yet serenity.

Chaos, yet harmony.

Death, yet the Force.

 

Furthermore, compassion is not a trait a Jedi must possess!

Edited June 20, 2014 by NightEngine

[DomiSotto]

I had an impression that compassion was a central attribute of a Jedi. But then, again, there is very little I know about the theology of the Jedi. It seems to resemble the relatively common theological ideas about individual, self-centered passions leading to evil, while compassion and ability to love universally is a way to happiness and away from evil. That's how I interpret my Jedi anyway. Can't say I am explaining it well. Sorry. Edited June 20, 2014 by DomiSotto

[NightEngine]

I think it's safe to say that even happiness can lead to the dark side.

[ScarletBlaze]

Here's something a friend shared with me regarding the code.

 

 

There is no emotion, there is peace

Emotions are a natural part of living. As the great sagas have shown us, Jedi are not immune to feeling emotions. Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi and Master Yoda both openly express their sorrow when they discover the death of younglings at the newly-appointed Darth Vader's hand. This tenet is not to say that emotion does not exist but that it ought to be set aside. Emotions must be understood first, and it is a young Jedi's duty to explore his feelings. Unless a Jedi can confront his thoughts and feelings, he will never achieve peace. Emotions, then, are not to be overcome or denied, but rather understood and dealt with. A'Sharad Hett reminds the young Anakin Skywalker of this during their campaigns together during the Clone Wars. Hett points out that Anakin's anger is understandable, but he must face it. This tenet could be modified to read "Emotion cannot take away my peace."

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge

A Jedi must be circumspecting and try to understand the world that is surrounding him. That ignorance does not exist is, of course, a flat-out lie or gross misunderstanding. Ignorance is a part of life but it must not be feared. For more knowledge to light their way, the Jedi Temple Archives contains possibly the single largest source of information in the galaxy, but this tenet also reminds the Knight that knowledge can be taken from the most unusual places. The great Master Yoda demonstrated this to the young Luke Skywalker on Dagobah when he acted like a fool, and when he acted childish in front of younglings. This performance was meant to teach Luke and the younglings the simple fact: even the foolish can be wise. Indeed, while instructing younglings, Master Yoda was often heard to remark that "Truly wonderful the mind of a child is." This tenet is what gives the Jedi his open mind and ability to accept what other beings would tend to see as unacceptable. In other words, this tenet points out that often a Jedi must use not only his rational mind but also his intuitive mind in order to ascertain the truth of a situation. This tenet is embodied by Qui-Gon Jinn's statement to Anakin Skywalker to "feel, don't think." Dexter Jettster would further demonstrate this notion: "I should think you Jedi would have more respect for the difference between knowledge and wisdom."

 

There is no passion, there is serenity

This tenet is essentially a repetition of the first. But this refers more directly to situations of extreme stress in which a Jedi might be tempted to react strongly. That a Jedi must draw his weapon only in defense is an expression of this tenet. While emotions and intuition must be understood and utilized in a Jedi's daily life, he must never act rashly. Passionate use of power leads to the dark side. A Jedi must always act with a calm hand and an even temper. * There is no passion, there is serenity This tenet is essentially a repetition of the first. But this refers more directly to situations of extreme stress in which a Jedi might be tempted to react strongly. That a Jedi must draw his weapon only in defense is an expression of this tenet. While emotions and intuition must be understood and utilized in a Jedi's daily life, he must never act rashly. Passionate use of power leads to the dark side. A Jedi must always act with a calm hand and an even temper. We take a step back from a given situation and see how we can handle something without resorting to losing our temper, blaming others for something and see how we can change the sitatuation and make it better.

 

There is no chaos, there is harmony

This statement reflects the cosmology of the Jedi Order. Whereas uninitiated beings see the universe as a chaotic and disconnected place, a Jedi realizes that all things are interconnected and, more importantly, interdependent. While an uninitiated being sees sorrow and tragedy in the workings of the universe, through the Force, a Jedi is able to interpret and understand even the most painful of life's events. . Every event has a purpose. As the great Jedi Master Yoda told Anakin Skywalker once, "Death is a natural part of life." Minor inconveniences such as failure, disappointment, and disagreement are also inevitable and should be taken in stride. Jedi do not deny the fact that tragic and terrible things happen; they merely point out that tragedy is simply another part of life.

Without this tenet, all other tenets of the Jedi Code would be meaningless There is no chaos, there is harmony. a Jedi is not without emotion as that is part of life. It is saying that life will have things we don't like but it is those little things that make us the person we are.

 

There is no death, there is the Force

A Jedi must always be ready for death. As a warrior not only in combat but also in day-to-day life, it is easy to fail and fall. As Qui-Gon Jinn pointed out to the young Anakin Skywalker, it is quite possible to kill a Jedi, and it happens often. The sense of loss is often even greater for one who feels it with the Force. Death, however, is not a tragedy and is merely a part of the life cycle. Without death, life could not exist. The Force in us, still lives on after we die. This tenet represents a darker side of the Jedi Order, the side that accepts, indeed embraces, death, rot and corruption of corporeal forms. As such, Jedi do not fear death nor do they mourn it overmuch; a Jedi, after all, must celebrate death if he is to also celebrate life. While sources disagree on this point, it is noteworthy to point out that this tenet does not support vegetarianism among the Jedi but, some scholars argue, it does in fact support omnivorism among Jedi. This could also refer to living forever as a force ghost * There is no death, there is the Force a Jedi, like many ancient feudal knights of various empires, must always be ready for death. As a warrior not only in combat but also in day-to-day life, it is easy to fail and fall. As Qui-Gon Jinn pointed out to the young Anakin Skywalker, it is quite possible to kill a Jedi, and it happens often. The sense of loss is often even greater for one who feels it with the Force. Death, however, is not a tragedy and is merely a part of the life cycle. Without death, life could not exist. The Force in us, still lives on after we die. This tenet represents a darker side of the Jedi Order, the side that accepts, indeed embraces, death, rot and corruption of corporeal forms. As such, Jedi do not fear death nor do they mourn it overmuch; a Jedi, after all, must celebrate death if he is to also celebrate life. This could also refer to living forever as a force ghost