No more color restrictions on crystals ?! Really ?

[amantheil]

 

This game is a Star Wars based game, so for better or worse it's tied to that lore. Most people who play it, are playing it for the STAR WARS LORE. If this was Indiana Jones Online, the people would expect it to adhere to that lore.

 

Its really simple thinking folks...

 

 

Except there's no actual lore that ties color your alignment. In fact, there have been multiple examples provided of people using different color sabers, which people seem to be willfully ignoring.

[amantheil]

I

Your point about Vader using a blue lightsaber makes little sense as he at that point did not have the time to create a new lightsaber. However when he is in his new bodysuit he has constructed a new saber and guess what, it's red. It seems many bring up this same moviescene as an argument, when the reason why is very clear.

 

 

But the point is, there's nothing that physically restricted him from using the blue lightsaber. He chose (or perhaps was ordered) to create a red one. But he was still physically capable of using a blue one.

 

Just to take a wild example, if a Russian soldier defected and joined the U.S. Army: he'd be issued an American-made rifle and use that. That doesn't mean he might not also have kept some Russian-made weapons that he keeps and maintains.

[NoxiousAlby]

I barely post but since most people who post are here to complain about things, I'll do the same.

 

My current state right now

 

I am playing a Star Wars game and one thing that was iconic to the franchise is definitely the color of crystals tied to the alignment of its user.

Whether it is actually a restriction in the lore of Star Wars or not, doesn't matter.

What matters is that it is how it is, and all haters have now managed to make Bioware change it.

 

Couldn't you just go along with it ? It's been like this for YEARS in Star Wars and just because some kids don't like it "oh noes y me no haz red lightsaber???", Bioware is changing something iconic to the serie.

 

Now, what is done is done and I am not going to go on a crusade like some of you did to change it back.

 

Bioware, you were doing a great job and are still doing the great job. I will likely continue to play this game. However, please don't cave in to whatever stupid requests your community has. You are the developer, with experience in studying, designing and developing games. I trust your judgment and the community should as well.

 

lol you think thats bad? Legacy will now give non force using classes force skills /facepalm

[DMSL]

But the point is, there's nothing that physically restricted him from using the blue lightsaber. He chose (or perhaps was ordered) to create a red one. But he was still physically capable of using a blue one.

 

Just to take a wild example, if a Russian soldier defected and joined the U.S. Army: he'd be issued an American-made rifle and use that. That doesn't mean he might not also have kept some Russian-made weapons that he keeps and maintains.

 

You are missing the point. The saber colour is not based on alignment, but faction based.

 

Sith use red lightsabers solely. The Jedi Order forbids their members to use red lightsabers. Of course any Force wielder is able to use any colour of crystal, but it is forbidden by the allegiance they chose and are part of. That's why it makes no sense to have a Jedi in this game with a red lightsaber or a Sith with a blue/green. BioWare should never have made colour restrictions for non-Force users, but for Jedi/Sith they should be there.

 

It seems that people think a Dark Force user is Sith and a Light Force user is a Jedi by default, but that is not the case. The Sith Empire as is the Jedi Order, is a cult or group of people with the same goals. It is the leaders of the cult that place restrictions. I am seeing people that support the removal of the colour restrictions by saying that there are Sith using non-red sabers in Star Wars lore. Yet they forget their faction. There are of course always exceptions* to the rule but they are minor thus i think it's not fair to base SWTOR on these exceptions.

 

 

 

* One being Adi Gallia, that was accidentally portrayed with a red lightsaber, instead of the correct pink colour and as someone pointed out Exar Kun that kept using the lightsaber with a blue crystal he constructed as part of the Jedi Order. After his betrayal he later changed it to a red hue.

[LordPorkins]

I guess this all draws from where you get your 'lore' from. My star wars universe is the films. I have only ever seen sith use red lightsabres and incidentally this theme continued in the trailers to this game.

 

I associate red lightsabres with darth maul, vader, sidious, and tyranus. There is no sith depicted that uses any other colour.

 

It is therefore odd seeing jedi using a red lightsabre. Similarly, I have only seen blue or green lightsabres used by jedi, and again this is reflected in the films and the trailers to this game. The purple lightsabre is an exception because of a special request from the actor playing Mace Windu.

 

It is clear therefore that the imagery of the mythology makes this clear distinction. I think the game itself should respect this distinction. It gives more credibility to the game in my view.

 

I wouldn't feel like a jedi, if my character was using a red lightsabre.

[VanorDM]

I have only ever seen sith use red lightsabres and incidentally this theme continued in the trailers to this game.

 

What color was Anakins saber at the end of Ep3?

 

I have only seen blue or green lightsabres used by jedi

 

There were other colors used, not just purple, the reason why Mace used a purple one, simply doesn't matter when it comes to the Lore, because the fact that an actor wanted something isn't a factor in Lore.

 

That said there were still other colors used by Jedi in the movies. However since we are talking about a video game, the very concept of Movie Only Lore simply doesn't work, what happened in the movies, by and large doesn't mean a thing in TOR, because of the difference in eras.

 

I wouldn't feel like a jedi, if my character was using a red lightsabre.

 

Then don't... Not sure why this is even an issue. You don't want to use a red saber, then don't use one.

 

But as it stands right now, if you are a Dark I Jedi, you have to use a red crystal.

Edited March 7, 2012 by VanorDM

[LordPorkins]

What color was Anakins saber at the end of Ep3?

 

 

 

There were other colors used, not just purple, the reason why Mace used a purple one, simply doesn't matter when it comes to the Lore, because the fact that an actor wanted something isn't a factor in Lore.

 

That said there were still other colors used by Jedi in the movies. However since we are talking about a video game, the very concept of Movie Only Lore simply doesn't work, what happened in the movies, by and large doesn't mean a thing in TOR, because of the difference in eras.

 

 

 

Then don't... Not sure why this is even an issue. You don't want to use a red saber, then don't use one.

 

But as it stands right now, if you are a Dark I Jedi, you have to use a red crystal.

 

 

 

I'm not buying this anakin at the end of episode 3 using a blue lightsabre. The impression given by the film is that even right up to the fight with obi wan, he still had a chance of turning back from the dark side. It is also obvious that he is going to use the lightsabre he has always had to fight obi wan.

 

Once he loses that fight, the lightsabre being taken away for him surely symbolises his final transformation into vader, before he gets put into the suit.

 

You can't change the facts, in the universe that lucas imagined, the sith used red lightsabres and a jedi using one is unimaginable.

 

That doesn't mean that this game automatically has to follow suit, but personally it diminishes that special star wars feel when you see the current free for all on colours.

[VanorDM]

The impression given by the film is that even right up to the fight with obi wan, he still had a chance of turning back from the dark side.

 

No he was fully turned to the Dark Side at that point. He had been working for Sidius for a bit already and was his apprentice already. He didn't really have much chance to turn back during the fight with Obi-Wan.

[SageH]

No canonical basis except for the actual look of the films...

 

Vader wields Luke's Green Saber in Episode 6, Anakin uses a Blue Saber up until he loses it in Episode 3, Anakin uses Dooku's Red Saber to execute him.. None of which exploded in the hands of the user, so apparently its all about taste/choice. I imagine it's also about appearance, as a black cloaked figure with a crimson saber is much more frightening than a warming blue/green color. Just a thought.

 

Regardless, crystals should have no restriction outside of the preference of the user, as the movies have shown is possible.

[SageH]

lol you think thats bad? Legacy will now give non force using classes force skills /facepalm

 

Every 20 mins, in a non-warzone/OPs environment as long as you can have a companion and use heroic moment. You're really complaining about that? Really? Ensign Temple is a Gunslinger who is Force sensative in the game because her father was Sith. ITS IN THE GAME ALREADY. Why complain about something that only has an impact on questing more or less.

[Aloro]

The Jedi Order forbids their members to use red lightsabers.

 

I believe you are incorrect in your assertion. Source please?

[LordPorkins]

Vader wields Luke's Green Saber in Episode 6, Anakin uses a Blue Saber up until he loses it in Episode 3, Anakin uses Dooku's Red Saber to execute him.. None of which exploded in the hands of the user, so apparently its all about taste/choice. I imagine it's also about appearance, as a black cloaked figure with a crimson saber is much more frightening than a warming blue/green color. Just a thought.

 

Regardless, crystals should have no restriction outside of the preference of the user, as the movies have shown is possible.

 

Slight artistic licence there. Wields doesnt mean use....anakin catches dookus lightsabre and kills him but then never uses it again. Don't remember Vader using Lukes lightsabre.

 

These are minor occurences. Everyone knows the sith trademark is the red lightsabre. Yes there are moments that are exceptions but you could never imagine obi wan using a red lightsabre to fight darth maul using a green one.

 

I am not saying people shouldnt have the choice. I think they should.

For me it is quite obvious the red lightsabres in the movie imagery are associated exclusively with sith.

 

Similarly green/blue with jedi.

 

Its part of the good v evil imagery. Red is traditionally associated with danger, evil, hell, devil, etc.

[VanorDM]

For me it is quite obvious the red lightsabres in the movie imagery are associated exclusively with sith.

 

Similarly green/blue with jedi.

 

Yet this isn't even true right now.

 

Sith is not restricted to Red and Jedi are not redistricted to Blue or green. If I play a Dark Jedi, I can't use blue or green, and if I play a light side Sith, I can't use red.

[NSStember]

Can't remember ever hearing someone cry out about the crystal color choices, but there must have been for Bioware to change it.

 

I'm also not happy about the change, but more because I think I've seen a lot more things "cried out" about in the forums (such as the ability to remove a hood) than I ever heard about the color of a saber a Jedi or Sith could use.

[NoxiousAlby]

Every 20 mins, in a non-warzone/OPs environment as long as you can have a companion and use heroic moment. You're really complaining about that? Really? Ensign Temple is a Gunslinger who is Force sensative in the game because her father was Sith. ITS IN THE GAME ALREADY. Why complain about something that only has an impact on questing more or less.

 

Because players already complain that every class has the same abilities, now that will ring even more true. Why play a sorcerer? when you can be a force lightning using bounty hunter?

 

It's not that the lore allows for it but rather it messes with class mechanics, in my opinion each class should be distincitive & unique in it's own way. But this will just make every class the same as each other, no uniqueness.

 

When Blizz introduced class similarities, everyone with a res & an interrupt & CC there was an uproar. Becuase classes stopped being unique, in Swtor too many classes share similar abilities and this will just make it worse.

Edited March 7, 2012 by NoxiousAlby

[VanorDM]

Why play a sorcerer? when you can be a force lightning using bounty hunter?

 

Well mostly because the Bounty Hunter can use Force Lightning once every 20 minutes, and only when they have a companion out. Where as the Sorcerer can use it all the time...

[DarthRavnos]

The Jedi Order forbids their members to use red lightsabers.

I believe you are incorrect in your assertion. Source please?

 

I believe DMSL is not correct but is not completely wrong either. Observe the following information that pertains to this Era of time within the SW universe. Specifically what I have highlighted in red.

 

When he resurrected the Sith under his own banner, Revan observed the tradition of using red-hued blades laid out by the original Sith. Many of his followers followed suit, and red lightsabers became recognized as the mark of a darksider.

 

In 3,681 BBY, the resurgent Sith Empire invaded the Galactic Republic. The conflict culminated in the Sacking of Coruscant in 3,653 BBY. This forced the Republic to sign the Treaty of Coruscant that led to the Cold War. During the years of these two conflicts, the Sith Empire's warriors and inquisitors almost uniformly wielded lightsabers instead of Sith swords. As with the Sith of Revan's Empire and the Empire of the Sith Triumvirate, red blades were customary for Sith to wield, solidifying the red lightsaber as emblematic of the Sith. Another typical design feature on Sith weapons was the usage of dual-blade guards. The Jedi continued to wield lightsabers, and some Jedi adopted the dual-bladed design as well.

 

Let's stop here a moment. So why would a Jedi of the Order want to associate themselves with a symbol that during this time was representative of the Sith?

 

Continuing...

 

As a result of their artificial origins, synthetic crystals created more powerful lightsaber blades and could be more easily augmented. Also, their common usage by Sith and other Darksiders after this discovery caused synthetic crystals to become something of a staple among such groups, and their use among Jedi was strongly discouraged.

[ChefMasterRock]

I'm pretty disappointed as well. What's the point of being darkside if everyone who's lightside can use red sabers? If you absolutely HAD to change things why didn't you at least just keep red for darkside only and blue/green for lightside only. I'm not sure if there is any lore that restricts red sabers to only darkside or vice versa for blue/green, but it's just generally accepted. Stating that lore doesn't restrict red to darkside is like saying that everyone should now know that the deathstar was actually a cube rather than a sphere, because lore didn't strictly explain the means of having it shaped as a sphere. Whether the lore states it or not, when you say Deathstar to someone, the image that they think of is a spherical space station, and when you say dark side lightsaber people imagine a red blade.

 

Either way i really dont care, stats are most important; that's just my two cents.

[Kourage]

I believe DMSL is not correct but is not completely wrong either. Observe the following information that pertains to this Era of time within the SW universe. Specifically what I have highlighted in red.

 

 

 

 

 

Let's stop here a moment. So why would a Jedi of the Order want to associate themselves with a symbol that during this time was representative of the Sith?

 

Continuing...

 

Wiki is not entirely lore. Wiki consists of whatever some nerd decides to write on it. Find a novel that states it. Find me where George Lucas said it. Quote it from the movies.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Kourage

[Limedust]

I barely post but since most people who post are here to complain about things, I'll do the same.

 

My current state right now

 

I am playing a Star Wars game and one thing that was iconic to the franchise is definitely the color of crystals tied to the alignment of its user.

Whether it is actually a restriction in the lore of Star Wars or not, doesn't matter.

What matters is that it is how it is, and all haters have now managed to make Bioware change it.

 

Couldn't you just go along with it ? It's been like this for YEARS in Star Wars and just because some kids don't like it "oh noes y me no haz red lightsaber???", Bioware is changing something iconic to the serie.

 

Now, what is done is done and I am not going to go on a crusade like some of you did to change it back.

 

Bioware, you were doing a great job and are still doing the great job. I will likely continue to play this game. However, please don't cave in to whatever stupid requests your community has. You are the developer, with experience in studying, designing and developing games. I trust your judgment and the community should as well.

 

They should just cave into your stupid request not cave, right?

[VanorDM]

So why would a Jedi of the Order want to associate themselves with a symbol that during this time was representative of the Sith?

 

Actually if you follow that logic, then the change makes even more sense.

 

Because as it stands right now, color isn't decided by Sith/Jedi, it's decided by Light/Dark alignment. That means Dark Side Jedi can't use blue or green, which would according to what you posted, cause them to be mistrusted by the Jedi Console.

 

Likewise Lightside Sith would I imagine be hunted down because it's quite clear which alignment they have, based on the color of their lightsaber.

[DarthRavnos]

Wiki is not entirely lore. Wiki consists of whatever some nerd decides to write on it. Find a novel that states it. FInd me where George Lucas said it. Quote it from the movies.

 

Actually a number of the items on that Wiki are tied (through source tags) to official SW source.

 

Simply put... To believe that a red lightsaber is NOT a symbol of the Sith is to be in utter denial of the Star Wars genre.

 

Further "proof", if this is what you need, is in BioWare's own

. Pause at 1:59 on that video. Do you see a single Sith (upper portion of the frame) carrying a blue or green lightsaber? Do you see a single member of the Jedi Order carrying red?

[ChefMasterRock]

Actually if you follow that logic, then the change makes even more sense.

 

Because as it stands right now, color isn't decided by Sith/Jedi, it's decided by Light/Dark alignment. That means Dark Side Jedi can't use blue or green, which would according to what you posted, cause them to be mistrusted by the Jedi Console.

 

Likewise Lightside Sith would I imagine be hunted down because it's quite clear which alignment they have, based on the color of their lightsaber.

 

Yeah, I guess technically the fact that there must be a line drawn between factions is what ultimately upsets this. That's not anything we can fix though... or could we?

[DarthRavnos]

Actually if you follow that logic, then the change makes even more sense.

 

Because as it stands right now, color isn't decided by Sith/Jedi, it's decided by Light/Dark alignment. That means Dark Side Jedi can't use blue or green, which would according to what you posted, cause them to be mistrusted by the Jedi Console.

 

Likewise Lightside Sith would I imagine be hunted down because it's quite clear which alignment they have, based on the color of their lightsaber.

 

Then BioWare should do the following...

 

Green = Jedi Consular, Trooper, Agent, BH, Smuggler

Blue = Jedi Knight, Trooper, Agent, BH, Smuggler

Red = Sith Inq, Sith Warrior, Trooper, Agent, BH, Smuggler

Yellow = All

Orange = All

Purple = All

Cyan = All

White = Lightside Only

Black Core w/White aura = Darkside Only

 

Or some other flavor of the above. Restrict by class (this follows lore and the traditions in this time period) then. Maybe throw one or two alignment restricted in for fun.

[Aloro]

I believe DMSL is not correct but is not completely wrong either.

 

While that was all interesting, none of it addressed the specific point that I disputed: the claim that Jedi were FORBIDDEN to use red lightsabers. I'm well aware of the production reasons for the colors, as well as the tradition that's arisen around them. I don't however know of any lore to support the claim that either the Jedi or Sith orders had explicit rules about lightsaber colors. Traditions, sure. Averages, sure. Explicit rules? Not that I know of. I'd like to see a source if someone claims such rules existed.

 

There's a throwaway line in one quote that suggests that Jedi were discouraged from using red lightsabers, but discouraging is not the same as forbidding.