Wish you could change advanced classes, great idea!

[aznthecapn]

The sky is orange, I declare that a fact therefore it must be so. Sorry your logic fails.

 

Its not my logic that fails. They created the advanced classes. Did you create the sky? Because these classes are of their design, they can declare them whatever they want them to be. This removes it from the realm of opinion.

 

What their opinion of a class is, is wrong.

 

You're welcome to have the opinion that they are wrong, but it does not change the fact that they are what the developers say they are.

 

And no, we will not shut up about something we want changed about the game. We are paying customers and if we would like a change we will voice our opinions until the developers decide to see whether or not there is a large enough vote for it.

 

You should, because its the same arguments that have been made since before beta. The developers have heard the opinions (all of them, many times) and they did make a decision. They said no. Contesting that at this stage is pointless.

 

If you're sick of the arguments, simple answer, don't read the threads.

 

I never said I was sick of them. I said its a moot point. No reason to have them. The decision was made. Continuing to badger them with the same request using the same reasoning is not going to make them change their mind. Only time will.

Edited February 29, 2012 by aznthecapn

[chaosdefined]

The dev's could say this game wasn't an MMO. That'd be their opinion but they'd be wrong. They didn't create the idea of a class or a spec, they took that from other games which had already established what was what. Therefore by saying that they are different classes, when in fact they resemble other game's normal specs, means that they are wrong.

 

I feel sorry for you, if you live under the thought that "Oh well, I complained once and they said no, I guess I'll have to put up with this.".

 

Personally I believe that if you're unhappy about something you complain and continue to complain until it's changed.

 

Otherwise you stop buying the product. And since that's something you and Bioware want to avoid, they should probably pay more attention to their customers.

[twinionx]

The argument holds the ultimate holy water: BioWare says so.

 

When you switch specs, no matter the role, you still use the same type of armor and same type of weapon (that's key to the design).

 

BioWare has stated time and again that they designed Advanced Classes as full MMO classes with all of the differentiation you expect to find there. They are not specs, and should not ever be changed.

 

And Bioware will never change their minds, ever?

 

SWTOR, an MMO game will be a static game, ever?

 

I think I've heard that before. Pre-BC, the Wow devs said no hybrid class will be able to main tank or main healer. Only warrior main tank and healer main heal. Guess what happen after that?

 

If a game wants to continue to attract sub or even to retain sub, they have to innovate and they have to improve.

 

The current AC design is deeply, deeply flawed.

[twinionx]

The dev's could say this game wasn't an MMO. That'd be their opinion but they'd be wrong. They didn't create the idea of a class or a spec, they took that from other games which had already established what was what. Therefore by saying that they are different classes, when in fact they resemble other game's normal specs, means that they are wrong.

 

I feel sorry for you, if you live under the thought that "Oh well, I complained once and they said no, I guess I'll have to put up with this.".

 

Personally I believe that if you're unhappy about something you complain and continue to complain until it's changed.

 

Otherwise you stop buying the product. And since that's something you and Bioware want to avoid, they should probably pay more attention to their customers.

 

I fear that is what will happen. People will quite because they are bored with their class or something. And bioware will never have a clue.

 

When I tried out LOTRO, i got bored with the burglar class. I quit it forever. I never bother to send feedback to the dev. They have lost one player just like that.

 

How many players will bioware lose before they wise up?

[KahnyaGnorc]

The concept of base classes and advanced classes is a very old concept, and I have NEVER seen a game where you can respec your advanced class. (My first MMO was DAoC that had the base class/advanced class concept . . . my main started as an Elementalist and became a Wizard, specced Fire)

[Lunazen]

You aren't allowed to switch classes in any other MMO.

 

 

Not true.

 

 

The mechanic exists in EQ2. It's tied to a betrayal quest, where you leave one side for the other and it forces you to pick a new class. They may have since made it where you can pay in game coin to retrain without the betrayal (but not certain on that last since I no longer play).

 

Rift you can have different roles, which are basically advanced classes.

 

 

As for past MMOs, in SWG you could untrain down to nothing and start over.

 

 

No doubt there are more examples out there.

 

 

OP, I like the idea.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Lunazen

[KahnyaGnorc]

Not true.

 

 

The mechanic exists in EQ2. It's tied to a betrayal quest, where you leave one side for the other and it forces you to pick a new class. They may have since made it where you can pay in game coin to retrain without the betrayal (but not certain on that last since I no longer play).

 

Rift you can have different roles, which are basically advanced classes.

 

 

As for past MMOs, in SWG you could untrain down to nothing and start over.

 

 

No doubt there are more examples out there.

 

 

OP, I like the idea.

 

 

In Rift, you cannot respec a rogue into a warrior. They have no advanced class feature.

 

SWG was a skill-based system, not a class-based system . . . That's like comparing D&D with GURPS.

 

The forced re-classing in EQII is completely different than respeccing between a Barbarian and Paladin or Monk. (The TOR equivalent would be switching between Rep and Imp and being forced to change between, say, Guardian and Juggernaut)

[DackVadnais]

It seems that there are indeed many people here who agree with me and even though i didn't play star wars galaxies i liked the example that you could strip your stats down to nothing and start over. To counter the arguement of worthless gear you get the majority from either vendors, galactic trading, or repeatable heroic quests and flashpoints which i would rather repeat than the entire game. Hopefully bioware reads this and sees that there are plenty of players who like the idea and that it would be a worthy change to the game but if your an opponent to the idea why worry noone's going to force you to change your class and it would only give you more freedom of choice.

[VanorDM]

if your an opponent to the idea why worry noone's going to force you to change your class...

 

Actually yes they will.

 

The very idea that people won't have use this system is BS and has been shown to be BS from the first time it came up.

 

People will always be expected to play the FotM class, and if you can change AC's you'll be expected to change your AC to what ever the FotM is.

[Planar]

As far as the comment "no other MMO does this", SO WHAT? Should Age of Conana not allowed mounted combat because No other MMO did at the time?

 

Anyway,

 

I would agree to this until level 40 and ONLY a 1 time deal, you change your DONE.

 

The only way I can see it working without excessive abuse is:

 

ONE TIME ONLY

ALL ITEMS YOUR WEARING unequip (if no room in inventory they mail to you like crafted items)

Level 40 is the cut off

it untrains ALL SKILLS with no refunds

It Costs you 25-250k (depending on your level, free to level 15)

[aznthecapn]

The dev's could say this game wasn't an MMO. That'd be their opinion but they'd be wrong. They didn't create the idea of a class or a spec, they took that from other games which had already established what was what. Therefore by saying that they are different classes, when in fact they resemble other game's normal specs, means that they are wrong.

 

The classes they created were completely original and unique to this game. Therefore they can call them what they want to. The creation of the game was a part of a genre therefore what they believe it to be is not up to them.

 

I feel sorry for you, if you live under the thought that "Oh well, I complained once and they said no, I guess I'll have to put up with this.".

 

Personally I believe that if you're unhappy about something you complain and continue to complain until it's changed.

 

Otherwise you stop buying the product. And since that's something you and Bioware want to avoid, they should probably pay more attention to their customers.

 

Good plan, you go about doing that. I'll go about enjoying the game and playing all the alts I want. If your sole purpose is to railroad against a perceived slight against you and how you choose to play then I feel sorry for you as well.

 

Here's a thought - they said no. Stop paying for the product. Incidentally, if you look at all the previous threads on this topic (of which I have been a part of) the resounding response has been "no". As it stands, they are listening to their customers.

[aznthecapn]

I fear that is what will happen. People will quite because they are bored with their class or something. And bioware will never have a clue.

 

When I tried out LOTRO, i got bored with the burglar class. I quit it forever. I never bother to send feedback to the dev. They have lost one player just like that.

 

How many players will bioware lose before they wise up?

 

Wise up to what? Something the bulk of the vocal playerbase has indicated they don't want? Or wise up to an unnecessary demand made by a vocal minority that don't want to be bothered to replay a few hours of gametime?

 

You realize we're arguing about 10 levels of gameplay here? Move class choice to level 1 instead of level 10 and 95% of the people who want the change go away. This means that the vast majority of your vocal minority are purely complaining about TEN LEVELS of gameplay.

[Bielduwyn]

I fear that is what will happen. People will quite because they are bored with their class or something. And bioware will never have a clue.

 

When I tried out LOTRO, i got bored with the burglar class. I quit it forever. I never bother to send feedback to the dev. They have lost one player just like that.

 

How many players will bioware lose before they wise up?

 

Two million people have already bought the game, I think they can afford to lose those who don't feel like making another character when their first one doesn't work out. There's only so much handholding you can do.

[Hamsterkill]

Sadly it's an argument that will never end.

 

I'm totally for it. The problem is too many people believe what Bioware tells them, that an Advanced Class is a seperate Class. But it's not. If you have a Powertech and a Mercenary, you still get called a Bounty Hunter, still go to the Bounty Hunter trainer, still get a good majority of the same abilities and still play through the Bounty Hunter storyline.

 

Advanced Classes are nothing more than glorified specs, much like a Holy Paladin or a Retribution Paladin...or a Feral Druid and a Moonkin Druid.

 

Getting to level 10 is a couple of hours. Really think about that though, can you imagine any MMO where you couldn't choose your class until you'd played for two hours?

 

All those who are opposed to it have, in my opinion, poor arguments that just boil down to nothing more than they don't like the idea so nobody should be able to experience it! They don't care about quality of life for other players, they don't want something that doesn't effect them!

 

It will get implimented though, at some stage. Most likely when SWTOR's subscription numbers begin to fall.

 

Either that or allow us to pick our AC from the very beginning.

 

So if they let you pick you AC at the beginning, but don't change the levels at which you gain anything (meaning the class separation would still only occur at level 10), you'd be fine with it?

[VanorDM]

I think they can afford to lose those who don't feel like making another character when their first one doesn't work out.

 

If anything MMO's count on people making alts over time. Someone who comes into a MMO makes a single character, decides they don't like it and quits the game... That is not the kind of person that's going to play the game for long regardless of what they can do.

 

At best that person would make it to max level and then quit anyway.

 

So there is no reason at all to do something for someone like that, because anything you do would be a wasting resources on someone who's not going to be around anyway.

[Bielduwyn]

A very good point, especially in TOR where Bioware actively encourages you to experience all eight stories.

[aznthecapn]

I'm totally for it. The problem is too many people believe what Bioware tells them, that an Advanced Class is a seperate Class. But it's not. If you have a Powertech and a Mercenary, you still get called a Bounty Hunter, still go to the Bounty Hunter trainer, still get a good majority of the same abilities and still play through the Bounty Hunter storyline.

 

The "class" is the story and the "advanced class" is the class. Other than that, no, they do not get a good majority of the same abilities. They share less than 30% of abilities. I've done the math.

 

Advanced Classes are nothing more than glorified specs, much like a Holy Paladin or a Retribution Paladin...or a Feral Druid and a Moonkin Druid.

 

Much like many other failed arguments, you choose to use the ONLY two classes in World of Warcraft that can fulfill all three roles. That's 1/5th of all classes. It does not make for a well founded argument when the other 4/5ths are identical to the classes we have in SWTOR.

 

Getting to level 10 is a couple of hours. Really think about that though, can you imagine any MMO where you couldn't choose your class until you'd played for two hours?

 

So you're arguing because you have to get to level 10 to reroll a class? You'd be fine if you got to pick at level 1? We're arguing about a few HOURS of playtime? That's the pinnacle of lazy.

 

All those who are opposed to it have, in my opinion, poor arguments that just boil down to nothing more than they don't like the idea so nobody should be able to experience it! They don't care about quality of life for other players, they don't want something that doesn't effect them!

 

Odd, I could say the exact same thing about your points. It does effect everyone in the game. Its a multiplayer game - you cannot enact a sweeping change like this and not expect it to effect everyone.

[KahnyaGnorc]

Getting to level 10 is a couple of hours. Really think about that though, can you imagine any MMO where you couldn't choose your class until you'd played for two hours?

 

Every MMO with the Advanced Class mechanic. In DAoC, with much slower leveling and the ability to lose XP upon death, getting to level 5 so that you can choose your advanced class took even longer than 2 hours...

[Havokk]

Oh look, another "class-based vs classless" argument. Didn't we sort these out thirty years ago when Basic D&D came out?

 

Short answer: Class-based roleplaying games (e.g. TOR, WOW, D&D) force you to pick a class and play within its limitations. Classless roleplaying games (e.g. GURPS) don't.

 

As for MMOGs that let you play for a couple of hours before picking your class: didn't Tabula Rasa do that?

[KahnyaGnorc]

Oh look, another "class-based vs classless" argument. Didn't we sort these out thirty years ago when Basic D&D came out?

 

Short answer: Class-based roleplaying games (e.g. TOR, WOW, D&D) force you to pick a class and play within its limitations. Classless roleplaying games (e.g. GURPS) don't.

 

As for MMOGs that let you play for a couple of hours before picking your class: didn't Tabula Rasa do that?

 

King Solomon wrote that there is nothing new under the sun. That goes doubly for arguments between gamers.

[Costantino]

They should never allow you to change your class. You can't in other mmos; why start now?... I mean seriously it's not that hard to level in this game and people need to STOP looking at the Advance Classes as Specs. Their not spec they are Classes. I swear at this point they should have released the Advance class as beginning classes so people will quit whining.

[SpicySauces]

What I haven't seen mentioned..... is why didn't BW just make 8 classes with 8 story lines? I mean, are they that bad at making video games that they make 4 classes and then try and double up? Sixty dollars plus a subscription should either buy me a full game or at least a half game with something to compensate for it. Go respec from a Feral druid to resto, from a holy paly to ret, from a resto shaman to enhance, from a prot warrior to arms or fury, from a combat rogue to sub, from a frost mage to arcane or fire even because even though you remain a clothie... your secondary stats have to change... thus DIFFERENT GEAR. By now you should realize you are playing half of a game that has been duplicated. BTW I love ToR even though I am being cheated out of my money lol.

[Pelum]

They should never allow you to change your class. You can't in other mmos; why start now?... I mean seriously it's not that hard to level in this game and people need to STOP looking at the Advance Classes as Specs. Their not spec they are Classes. I swear at this point they should have released the Advance class as beginning classes so people will quit whining.

 

Even then you would have people wanting to switch class from jugg to mara because they are both melee force users.

[Zachajariah]

2 of these posts in one day?

 

Seriously Bioware already has a firm NO on this. Can't y'all read the dev tracker?

[Costantino]

2 of these posts in one day?

 

Seriously Bioware already has a firm NO on this. Can't y'all read the dev tracker?

 

Thank you! Someone else that can read. I salute you good sir.