The thought that WoW has more endgame content

[Morthis]

Thought #1 WoW has more raid content

 

False - Ever since BC WoW has implemented 2 instances in the first raid tier of an expansion. We are seeing, so far, the same model in TOR. Cataclysm was the exception to this in WoW but the raids easily were considered one raid as clearing both BOT/BWL in one night was common place.

 

When stuff is on farm clearing in one night is common, sure. First run at it? Yeah no.

 

One also has to consider the variety. Cata's opening bosses felt far more varied because they both took more time to learn and were more unique in terms of mechanics/gameplay.

 

Thought #2 TOR raids are too easy vs. WoW

 

False and LOL @ Cataclysm and Wrath. WoW raids haven't been difficult since BC and the 2nd and 3rd tiers of the past 2 expansions, even on HM, difficulty has been laughable. The first tier in Cataclysm was easy before everyone complained of its difficulty and subsequently got nerfed. Although the difficulty in TOR isn't very high WoW is not any more difficult.

 

Another clueless person who thinks watching a video of normal modes is the same as clearing hard modes. Did you realize the people with an actual clue about this have said heroic Ragnaros was the hardest fight WoW has ever seen? But hey, some random dude on the internet said it was easy so it must be true, after all he has probably seen a video of it and thought it looked pretty easy.

 

The only challenging part of SW:TOR operations is the bugs, not the encounters. If the encounters were challenging and gear took a while to acquire, you'd see a whole lot less complaining about no end game.

 

Thought #3 There is nothing to do in TOR at endgame vs. WoW

 

And what is there to do in WoW? Farm dailies, grind dungeons, raid, farm achievements. Looks pretty similar to the TOR endgame to me. No, TOR doesn't have as many dailies but we're really splitting hairs here. There are no achievements in TOR as of yet but if you are farming achievements you must be pretty bored with a game to do so. MMO's have a grind to get gear at endgame and TOR hasn't changed anything up.

 

SW:TOR screwed up the gear grind by giving it all away. Also if someone actually enjoys going for achievements (and there's plenty who do), it sounds like a pretty good thing to add. You give people a little pop up and some points that don't really do anything and they'll enjoy your game for a longer period of time. It's a win-win, even if some people don't care about it.

 

Thought #4 TOR is more aimed at casuals than WoW

 

Really? LFR is all that needs to be said on that. There is nothing wrong with being a casual, some people realize life is more important than a video game but you can't say WoW isn't aimed at a casual market. In this day and age all MMO's are going to be catering to a casual audience, that is how the market has changed and this is how developer's are going to adapt to stay afloat int he marketplace.

 

WoW manages to adequately appeal to both. Heroics are for the hardcores, LFR and normal mode for more casual people. SW:TOR holds little hardcore appeal because any hardcore raid cleared nightmare within days (if not first day) of starting it.

 

I was not a shot at saying TOR is better than WoW, everyone has their own opinion. These are just some facts that I wanted to throw out there that really in some circumstance these games are pretty even leveled.

 

Your "facts" have a distinct lack of actual factual information in them and seem to have a large amount of personal opinions intended to criticize WoW for supposedly becoming too easy.

[BlackZoback]

six year vet of WoW?

 

something kept you interested for six years and you trash it?

 

Yes, cataclysm and the direction they took with it made me really dislike the game. WotLk was WoWs golden age, both in story and in execution. Uldar had to be the best designed raid instance I have ever gotten to play to date.

 

If it was still like that I would probably still be playing it, but now its all LFR tards and waiting on pandas to fix everything.

[OldBenSmokin]

Uldar sucked, yo.

 

Gimme that BWL, or Kara.

 

 

(IMO)

Edited March 2, 2012 by OldBenSmokin

[Touchbass]

Yes, cataclysm and the direction they took with it made me really dislike the game. WotLk was WoWs golden age, both in story and in execution. Uldar had to be the best designed raid instance I have ever gotten to play to date.

 

If it was still like that I would probably still be playing it, but now its all LFR tards and waiting on pandas to fix everything.

 

This sounds like someone trying to justify his quitting then anything that holds any salt. The raids are more difficult in Cataclysm, so how is it easy mode and what on earth does people using LFR and pands have anything to do with your gameplay? Serious raiders still play WoW and log onto SWTOR to play around a bit.

[Touchbass]

When stuff is on farm clearing in one night is common, sure. First run at it? Yeah no.

 

One also has to consider the variety. Cata's opening bosses felt far more varied because they both took more time to learn and were more unique in terms of mechanics/gameplay.

 

 

 

Another clueless person who thinks watching a video of normal modes is the same as clearing hard modes. Did you realize the people with an actual clue about this have said heroic Ragnaros was the hardest fight WoW has ever seen? But hey, some random dude on the internet said it was easy so it must be true, after all he has probably seen a video of it and thought it looked pretty easy.

 

The only challenging part of SW:TOR operations is the bugs, not the encounters. If the encounters were challenging and gear took a while to acquire, you'd see a whole lot less complaining about no end game.

 

 

 

SW:TOR screwed up the gear grind by giving it all away. Also if someone actually enjoys going for achievements (and there's plenty who do), it sounds like a pretty good thing to add. You give people a little pop up and some points that don't really do anything and they'll enjoy your game for a longer period of time. It's a win-win, even if some people don't care about it.

 

 

 

WoW manages to adequately appeal to both. Heroics are for the hardcores, LFR and normal mode for more casual people. SW:TOR holds little hardcore appeal because any hardcore raid cleared nightmare within days (if not first day) of starting it.

 

 

 

Your "facts" have a distinct lack of actual factual information in them and seem to have a large amount of personal opinions intended to criticize WoW for supposedly becoming too easy.

 

Well said, thanks for typing out what I was to lazy to write.

[BlackZoback]

Uldar sucked, yo.

 

Gimme that BWL, or Kara.

 

 

(IMO)

 

Opinions, everyone got em.

 

Kara would have been my top pick but the amount of trash you had to slog though really turned me off.

[BlackZoback]

This sounds like someone trying to justify his quitting then anything that holds any salt. The raids are more difficult in Cataclysm, so how is it easy mode and what on earth does people using LFR and pands have anything to do with your gameplay? Serious raiders still play WoW and log onto SWTOR to play around a bit.

 

I was a "serious" raider when I played EQ for 5 years...

Edited March 2, 2012 by BlackZoback

[Dayfax]

WotLk was WoWs golden age, both in story and in execution.

 

You've said some crazy things before, but this takes the cake.

 

While Ulduar was great, it was also quickly nerfed to hell and made irrelevant by gear resets and the early release of Trial of the Crusader, which was the shallowest and worst raid Blizz ever implemented.

 

I get the feeling you were a Wrath Baby. Six years? Nah, dude, admit it. It was 3, and you quit Cata because Deadmines trash was too hard for you.

 

Nobody who played any part of Vanilla or BC ever has good things to say about Wrath.

 

If you loved Ulduar, then you should be screaming to high heaven that SWTOR content does not, afaik, have 1/10th the complexity of any of those encounters.

[Malefactor]

Didn't bother to go through all the pages of this thread, but has anyone mentioned the fact that Blizzard has been rehashing old dungeons/raids since WOTLK, and will continue this trend in MoP? Or that Blizzard has one of (if not the) slowest development times to release new content?

 

If BioWare can keep pace with their current content release schedule (2 major content patches in ~3 months, no idea on their timetable for expansions) and Blizzard continues their slow content release schedule (a major content patch ~6 months + expansion every 1 1/2-2 years) they will surpass Blizzard in endgame (and fluff) content in a relatively short amount of time, time that all MMO's need to expand upon the foundation that is the launch product.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Malefactor

[BlackZoback]

You've said some crazy things before, but this takes the cake.

 

While Ulduar was great, it was also quickly nerfed to hell and made irrelevant by gear resets and the early release of Trial of the Crusader, which was the shallowest and worst raid Blizz ever implemented.

 

Did I say anything about subsequent trivialization and nurfs of Uldar, it was a crime in my opinion.

 

I get the feeling you were a Wrath Baby. Six years? Nah, dude, admit it. It was 3, and you quit Cata because Deadmines trash was too hard for you.

 

Nobody who played any part of Vanilla or BC ever has good things to say about Wrath.

 

That's because my hardcore raiding days where spent in EQ, joined a simi-casual guild in WoW and still saw 90% of what vanilla and BC had to offer.

 

It was a been there done that experience...

 

Accessibility (WolK) > Exclusiveness (first part of Cata)

 

Blizzard did a 180 mid expansion because of the mistake they made listening to the "its to easy" QQ that was rampant pre cata.

 

If you loved Ulduar, then you should be screaming to high heaven that SWTOR content does not, afaik, have 1/10th the complexity of any of those encounters.

 

I'm willing to give BW time to refine their raiding experience, this is their first and they are being very proactive in its development.

Edited March 3, 2012 by BlackZoback

[Touchbass]

Didn't bother to go through all the pages of this thread, but has anyone mentioned the fact that Blizzard has been rehashing old dungeons/raids since WOTLK, and will continue this trend in MoP? Or that Blizzard has one of (if not the) slowest development times to release new content?

 

If BioWare can keep pace with their current content release schedule (2 major content patches in ~3 months, no idea on their timetable for expansions) and Blizzard continues their slow content release schedule (a major content patch ~6 months + expansion every 1 1/2-2 years) they will surpass Blizzard in endgame (and fluff) content in a relatively short amount of time, time that all MMO's need to expand upon the foundation that is the launch product.

 

This game has been out since December 15 and we haven't even see one content patch yet. If you think putting in a flashpoint thats gear was part of the set on launch afterwards is a content patch then kodos to the SWTOR marketing team for getting you to drink that. It'd be like me saying when Blizzard launched ZA/ZG heroics that that was a seperate content patch then the Firelands raid they accompanied. Blizzard takes so long with their patches cause they are beefy and mini expansions.

[BlackZoback]

This game has been out since December 15 and we haven't even see one content patch yet. If you think putting in a flashpoint thats gear was part of the set on launch afterwards is a content patch then kodos to the SWTOR marketing team for getting you to drink that. It'd be like me saying when Blizzard launched ZA/ZG heroics that that was a seperate content patch then the Firelands raid they accompanied. Blizzard takes so long with their patches cause they are beefy and mini expansions.

 

1.1 wasn't a content patch? could have sworn they opened the rest of KP and added another FP.

 

Gear is not content btw.

[Touchbass]

1.1 wasn't a content patch? could have sworn they opened the rest of KP and added another FP.

 

Gear is not content btw.

 

Putting in content that should of been released with the game is not a content patch.

[Malefactor]

This game has been out since December 15 and we haven't even see one content patch yet. If you think putting in a flashpoint thats gear was part of the set on launch afterwards is a content patch then kodos to the SWTOR marketing team for getting you to drink that. It'd be like me saying when Blizzard launched ZA/ZG heroics that that was a seperate content patch then the Firelands raid they accompanied. Blizzard takes so long with their patches cause they are beefy and mini expansions.

 

1.1 was a content patch, whether you feel it wasn't enough is your opinion, doesn't change the fact that it was a content patch.

 

1.2 will be another, ever larger content patch.

[Touchbass]

1.1 was a content patch, whether you feel it wasn't enough is your opinion, doesn't change the fact that it was a content patch.

 

1.2 will be another, ever larger content patch.

 

So when Blizzard spilt up ZA/ZG heroics and some features and then released Firelands that was 2 seperate content patches?

[Malefactor]

So when Blizzard spilt up ZA/ZG heroics and some features and then released Firelands that was 2 seperate content patches?

 

I don't know, wasn't there I left just prior to Cata. ZA/ZG are rehashes of old content though, so I don't know if calling them "new content" is entirely accurate.

 

Do you happen to recall the patch numbers?

[BlackZoback]

Putting in content that should of been released with the game is not a content patch.

 

Content patches = patches with content.

[Dayfax]

Didn't bother to go through all the pages of this thread, but has anyone mentioned the fact that Blizzard has been rehashing old dungeons/raids since WOTLK, and will continue this trend in MoP? Or that Blizzard has one of (if not the) slowest development times to release new content?

 

If BioWare can keep pace with their current content release schedule (2 major content patches in ~3 months, no idea on their timetable for expansions) and Blizzard continues their slow content release schedule (a major content patch ~6 months + expansion every 1 1/2-2 years) they will surpass Blizzard in endgame (and fluff) content in a relatively short amount of time, time that all MMO's need to expand upon the foundation that is the launch product.

 

You're right, but then Warcraft is obviously at the end of its lifecycle and doesn't have the budget it used to.

 

Bioware is still playing catchup, and 1.2 looks more and more like the game they originally meant to ship. What will be interesting to see is whether they can continue this pace while growing the playerbase.

 

If subs don't grow, then I expect EA will cut the budgets & the rate of updates will slow to a crawl.

[oakamp]

we dont care that wow ,

stop talk about it,

u can quit , back to ur little wow.

[Samborino]

To de-bunk and explain some thoughts

 

Thought #1 WoW has more raid content

 

False - Ever since BC WoW has implemented 2 instances in the first raid tier of an expansion. We are seeing, so far, the same model in TOR. Cataclysm was the exception to this in WoW but the raids easily were considered one raid as clearing both BOT/BWL in one night was common place.

 

Well isnt it also common place to clear both KP and EV in the same night as well? So should we consider them as 1 raid? Because that makes the first argument valid again going by your reasoning.

[Malefactor]

You're right, but then Warcraft is obviously at the end of its lifecycle and doesn't have the budget it used to.

 

Bioware is still playing catchup, and 1.2 looks more and more like the game they originally meant to ship. What will be interesting to see is whether they can continue this pace while growing the playerbase.

 

If subs don't grow, then I expect EA will cut the budgets & the rate of updates will slow to a crawl.

 

It's quite possible that 1.2 was the game they intended to ship, also possible that pressure from EA, as well as constant outcry from the masses for release forced them to release before they really wanted to, and they had to put on hold some things while preparing for launch.

 

Either way, time is what is needed for each and every MMO post-launch to grow and become the feature rich games that older MMO's, with time under their belts, are.

 

From my point of view and the ~15 years of personal experience playing MMO's, SW:TOR released with a pretty impressive amount of content overall as well as having a very stable launch. Now it all depends on the devs and their timetable (and ability to meet that timetable) for releasing more and more content and features, and their plans to expand into more territories across the globe.

[rkopczak]

While I hate the bloated blizzard monster pig as much the the next guy, to suggest that swtor has even a fraction of its content is laughable, no matter how you look at it. With 3 years of dev love swtor still couldnt match that behemoth for content...

 

so what WoW has like 14 tiers of raid gear, when nobody is doing this anymore?

Maybe it has plenty of content, but this content is old and unused.

Only thing that matters right now is Dragon Soul and it's already few months old and will have to bo sufficient until Pandaria so it's loooong time.

SWTOR is 2 months old and we have already seen new operation and flashpoint and next one will be in few weeks time alongside new warzone, at that rate SWTOR will have more content then WoW in no time.

[RabidPopcorn]

I can't wait for the day that MMO standards aren't what WoW is doing.

 

 

I dunno about you guys but I'm sick of WoW, I'm sick of playing games like WoW. It's pretty obvious a lot of people feel the same way but developers keep on tossing out WoW clones thinking it will somehow be competitive with WoW.

 

People want something DIFFERENT, I don't want to just grind dailies and grind gear for endgame content.

 

I don't want to grind gear for a month just to be competitive with other players in PVP. I want to just JUMP in on the fun and have a blast, why is it so hard for someone to create an MMO that is fun and not just a mindless grind to get to the fun part but by the time you get there you're so sick of playing the game that it isn't fun?

 

Thank god the GW2 developers understand people don't want to grind endlessly for PVP gear and making new comers the pvp scene scared to even queue because they get 3 shot by battlemasters.

 

I just hope for MMO sake that GW2 delivers. I'm sick and tired of everyone hyping up the next "WoW killer" that just ends up being a terrible version of WoW.

 

 

 

 

These "full fledged" raiding guilds must be bad because I pug DS normal on my server.. I've cleared it 3 times now.

 

Fair point, that is why most people like you shouldn't be playing MMOs; games like Diablo and Guild Wars would be better suited for you. Why play a MMO if it's leading to more agony than fun?

[Samborino]

It's quite possible that 1.2 was the game they intended to ship, also possible that pressure from EA, as well as constant outcry from the masses for release forced them to release before they really wanted to, and they had to put on hold some things while preparing for launch.

 

Either way, time is what is needed for each and every MMO post-launch to grow and become the feature rich games that older MMO's, with time under their belts, are.

 

From my point of view and the ~15 years of personal experience playing MMO's, SW:TOR released with a pretty impressive amount of content overall as well as having a very stable launch. Now it all depends on the devs and their timetable (and ability to meet that timetable) for releasing more and more content and features, and their plans to expand into more territories across the globe.

 

My cousin is a line producer for 3 games at the EA head office, and he constantly talks about the pressure to get the game out on time, and the crunch that happens a month before release. They dont really accept any delays at EA at all. After the launch date is set, that is it.

[Samborino]

You're right, but then Warcraft is obviously at the end of its lifecycle and doesn't have the budget it used to.

 

Bioware is still playing catchup, and 1.2 looks more and more like the game they originally meant to ship. What will be interesting to see is whether they can continue this pace while growing the playerbase.

 

If subs don't grow, then I expect EA will cut the budgets & the rate of updates will slow to a crawl.

 

You mean if subs shrink to much, if they keep a steady 1.5 to 2 million subscribers i dont think anything will slow to a crawl i think that is a formidable subscription base. At 1 million subs the game is on profitable supposedly. So at 2 million it should be quite a profitable endevour.