Romance and Jedi

[Tigrakis]

Hello ,

 

I haven't reached to the level to verify it in the game , but i am assuming that there is nothing special happening when a Jedi Knight or Counselor character is courting an companion.

 

Judging from the story perspective, a Jedi that does any act of romance should be penalized with a certain amount of "darkside points". For example : offer court gift ---> 5 dark points.

 

 

What do you guys think about this ?

[Kheldras]

Common Misconcept.

 

Jedi do NOT condemn joy, or attachment, or love.

 

But attachments easily awake feelings of jealousy, hate, fear, anger, and as such, those feelings may lead to the dark side.

 

A pure love, free of such bad feelings is no problem, i might say that the male Consulars Love interest is as good and pure as love can be.. more so than the Jedi Knights Kira.

 

An example:

Imagine you suspect your girl to cheat you, or the car you love gets totaled by a drunkard... that feelings are the first step to the dark side.

 

So.. the idea behind being against attachment to persons, or even items is, to minimize the exposure to be led to such negative feelings, even if a huge part of the Jedi teachings is, to not, never ever let your emotions cloud your judgement as Jedi.

 

Its not forbidden, as Love and friendship as feelings are not evil.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Kheldras

[JediElf]

Common Misconcept.

 

Jedi do NOT condemn joy, or attachment, or love.

 

 

Where is this said in the lore?

 

Anakin had to keep his marriage to Padme a secret, or he's would have been expelled from the Jedi order. I assume that rule was the same, for all Jedi then?

[Wolfninjajedi]

Where is this said in the lore?

 

Anakin had to keep his marriage to Padme a secret, or he's would have been expelled from the Jedi order. I assume that rule was the same, for all Jedi then?

 

Two very different time periods, rules change and such.

[JediElf]

Two very different time periods, rules change and such.

 

So were the Jedi more relaxed in the the Old Republic time period? When did the whole 'Jedi feel nothing/ can not feel love/ have no emotions' thing come into play?

 

Was it just for the prequel movies? Was it ever in any of the books?

[Tigrakis]

Common Misconcept.

 

Jedi do NOT condemn joy, or attachment, or love.

 

But attachments easily awake feelings of jealousy, hate, fear, anger, and as such, those feelings may lead to the dark side.

 

A pure love, free of such bad feelings is no problem, i might say that the male Consulars Love interest is as good and pure as love can be.. more so than the Jedi Knights Kira.

 

An example:

Imagine you suspect your girl to cheat you, or the car you love gets totaled by a drunkard... that feelings are the first step to the dark side.

 

So.. the idea behind being against attachment to persons, or even items is, to minimize the exposure to be led to such negative feelings, even if a huge part of the Jedi teachings is, to not, never ever let your emotions cloud your judgement as Jedi.

 

Its not forbidden, as Love and friendship as feelings are not evil.

 

 

I agree with the reasons that you mention and that explain why feelings can go to fall to the dark side .

 

However you are reaching a wrong conclusion .

 

 

There are many kinds of love. And English is a particularly bad language for analyzing it because the word is used even in way too many contexts (for example "i love these shoes " ).

 

 

I remain with my opinion that the Jedi is supposed to have a generic kind of love : for everyone and everything . And avoid the erotic love which is passionate and instinctual .

Edited February 27, 2012 by Tigrakis

[Wolfninjajedi]

So were the Jedi more relaxed in the the Old Republic time period? When did the whole 'Jedi feel nothing/ can not feel love/ have no emotions' thing come into play?

 

Was it just for the prequel movies? Was it ever in any of the books?

 

They never said that jedi couldn't feel anything, jedi can still have emotions but they were just more strict about it and making sure they were kept in check. Their not droids.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[NotSevv]

ON the starter world there is a quest to find the 2 jedi's who are in love and turn them in, so the op has a point.

[nanamew]

 

If you play through the Jedi Knight story on Tython you'll come across a quest where you have to find two Padawans whos masters are suspecting that they're in love. Since love is strictly forbidden as a Jedi, they have to choose between ending it or quit their training.

Upon finding them you have to make the choice of lieing and say that they're not in fact in a relationship with eachother, or tell the masters the truth.

 

 

So yeah, Jedi's can't have relationships.

[JediElf]

ON the starter world there is a quest to find the 2 jedi's who are in love and turn them in, so the op has a point.

 

This!

 

Also how can they save peoples lives if they don't, or can't, be aloud to love.

 

Yes you can feel a compassion for other people, but to deny, or condemn, passion and romance is just as messed up, as letting it consume you completely.

 

I wish we could choose to be Grey Jedi. >_<

Edited February 27, 2012 by JediElf

[Wolfninjajedi]

This!

 

Also how can they save peoples lives if they don't, or can't, be aloud to love.

 

Yes you can feel a compassion for other people, but to deny, or condemn, passion and romance is just as messed up, as letting it consume you completely.

 

I wish we could choose to be Grey Jedi. >_<

 

They don't condemn love, several jedi have been in love. They just need to get permission from the jedi council, and make sure they can keep their emotions from spiraling out of control. Though most didn't do this because they probably thought the council would reject them.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[JediElf]

They don't condemn love, several jedi have been in love. They just need to get permission from the jedi council, and make sure they can keep their emotions from spiraling out of control. Though most didn't do this because they probably thought the council would reject them.

 

...and that fear of rejection form the council will fuel the anger at there own emotions, a hatred for the training that lead to this choice, and a suffering for their predicament as a whole and the love they may lose....

 

That eventually leads, to the dark side.

 

This is why the Jedi, to me, just don't make any sense. You can't be that detached from yourself and still be 'good'.

[VanorDM]

ON the starter world there is a quest to find the 2 jedi's who are in love and turn them in, so the op has a point.

 

The rules that Padawans live under are not the same rules full fledged Jedi live under. Same way that in boot camp you live under different rules.

 

Jedi do in fact have emotions and are in fact allowed to have relationships. They simply have to keep in mind that powerful emotions can but don't have to lead to the dark side so they keep their feelings in check.

 

Plus given the power that a Jedi has, it makes sense that they'd be trained to avoid making decisions based on emotions because those kinds of decisions can often cause issues.

 

Anyone who tries to decide what Jedi are like based on what happens on Typhon are making a whole lot of assumptions without any sort of knowledge to back those up.

[Meira_Arirai]

I actually wrote up a timeline of examples of Jedi attitudes toward romance in the course of looking at this question. It's here. It's not finished because there are some gaps in my EU knowledge, so if anyone knows of other specific examples to add, I'd be glad to do it.

 

The short version is that Jedi attitudes toward love/romance can vary significantly depending on the time period. In particular, it looks like during the Jedi Civil War/Cold War era, Jedi were officially discouraged from engaging in committed, long-term relationships or having children, but it was a sort of galactic "open secret" that many Jedi chose to do it regardless.

 

The thing that confuses me about how it's handled in SWTOR is that Jedi are handed dark side points mostly for kissing, sex, and proposing or accepting marriage proposals. George Lucas is on the record saying that it was specifically the exclusive attachment part of the equation (and the tendencies toward jealousy, ignoring the needs of others, and susceptibility to manipulation that that implies) that was forbidden, and that Jedi having casual, uncommitted sex was totally okay. The assignment of DS points in the game doesn't seem to line up with that.

[JediElf]

The thing that confuses me about how it's handled in SWTOR is that Jedi are handed dark side points mostly for kissing, sex, and proposing or accepting marriage proposals. George Lucas is on the record saying that it was specifically the exclusive attachment part of the equation (and the tendencies toward jealousy, ignoring the needs of others, and susceptibility to manipulation that that implies) that was forbidden, and that Jedi having casual, uncommitted sex was totally okay. The assignment of DS points in the game doesn't seem to line up with that.

 

Now that's interesting.

 

Really this is why I'm mulling over beginning a Jedi character. The Sith may be crazy, but at least it's a crazy, that makes a little bit of sense.

[VanorDM]

The thing that confuses me about how it's handled in SWTOR is that Jedi are handed dark side points mostly for kissing, sex, and proposing or accepting marriage proposals.

 

Actually they don't.

 

My Jedi Guardian has 200 DS points and all of them were from quests mostly dealing with political issues. I've gone though the whole romance arc with Kira and have not gotten a single DS point from the things we've done. Including getting married.

 

The trick is that early on in the romance arc with Kira there's a single option that will get you DS points, and that leads down a slightly different road. You can not take that option and still have a romance storyline with her... Again one that does not earn you a single DS point, no matter how much kissing, sex or anything else you do. In fact once down that line there were no options that gave DS points.

[Meira_Arirai]

Actually they don't.

 

My Jedi Guardian has 200 DS points and all of them were from quests mostly dealing with political issues. I've gone though the whole romance arc with Kira and have not gotten a single DS point from the things we've done. Including getting married.

 

Female knights straight-up don't have this option with Doc. I'm open to being corrected, but I don't believe Consulars get a 0dsp romance option either.

 

My take on it is that any single-axis moral choice system is eventually going to be exposed as ridiculous, even if you've pretty rigorously defined the values represented by each pole (and Star Wars hasn't, really) because inevitably, they're applied to situations where you're trying to reconcile multiple different values that have each previously been defined as good/moral/praiseworthy.

 

For example, without spoiling too much, toward the end, this happens when someone close to you is nabbed by the lackies of a bad guy your superiors have assigned you to apprehend, who presents an unambiguous, agreed-upon threat. You are offered the choice between showing compassion and rescuing an innocent person even when it will probably torpedo the success-chance of your mission, or exercising the values of non-attachment, clear thinking, and prioritizing the good of the galaxy over your feelings. Both of those values have been amply established as lightside in your previous gameplay. Alignment points are arbitrarily assigned. :/

Edited February 27, 2012 by Meira_Arirai

[Earthmama]

I'm playing a fem consular and am playing through the romance with Felix Iresso (ya ya, he's a little boring, but he's sweet). Early on in the relationship, he asks if what they are doing is forbidden, and my consular answers that relationships are not forbidden, but more so frowned upon and if they ever chose to get married (not married yet) they would need the permission of the jedi council.

 

I am at 9000 affection with Felix and I have never once been given DS points for pursuing the relationship.

 

Satele Shan and that Trooper character from the opening cinimatics, his name escapes me, had a relationship and even have a son together... Revan and Bastila got married in canon.

[Thebazilly]

The way I think the game is trying to present it is that Jedi aren't allowed to have relationships without approval from the Council, because of the aforementioned issues with jealousy, fear, anger, etc.

 

Jedi are supposed to be detached and impartial (as much as they can be as beings with emotions, which they still do have), and it takes a very deep understanding of the Code to maintain that and still be in a relationship or married. The Council forbids it in general because it's difficult to achieve impartiality and love at the same time, but they do allow certain exceptions.

 

Of course, this doesn't seem to stop the Jedi from going around the restrictions, and in some cases, might even drive them to the dark side out of fear the Council will put an end to their relationship. It's not a perfect system, but that's what makes for interesting roleplaying.

[VanorDM]

I'm open to being corrected, but I don't believe Consulars get a 0dsp romance option either.

 

Based on the post above, that's not true, because they have a 0 DS point romance as well.

 

Can't speak for the female versions. I do know I've seen lots of people complaining about the lack of romance options for female characters and seeing how my highest is lvl 18 I can't say much about that...

 

Other then she's already gotten some...

 

But the point of my post was, that you were clearly in error, because kissing and other actions do not give you DS points in every case. It might be that the female knight doesn't have a DS option, or perhaps they do and you missed it, I know lots of male knights took the DS option with Kira, and missed out on the LS romance line.

 

But the idea that somehow in SWTOR physical romance is a DS thing is clearly not true.

Edited February 27, 2012 by VanorDM

[Meira_Arirai]

I'm playing a fem consular and am playing through the romance with Felix Iresso (ya ya, he's a little boring, but he's sweet). Early on in the relationship, he asks if what they are doing is forbidden, and my consular answers that relationships are not forbidden, but more so frowned upon and if they ever chose to get married (not married yet) they would need the permission of the jedi council.

 

I am at 9000 affection with Felix and I have never once been given DS points for pursuing the relationship.

 

Satele Shan and that Trooper character from the opening cinimatics, his name escapes me, had a relationship and even have a son together... Revan and Bastila got married in canon.

 

Very well. I stand corrected. I find the distribution of ds points for female Knights pursuing a relationship to be suspicious, but that doesn't appear to generalize to other class/gender combinations. I have to wonder if it's just that there is no way the Council would ever sanction any Jedi ever having a relationship with Doc.

 

I knew Satele had a son, but I didn't know it was with Jace Sith-puncher Malcom. Wow. Now I feel a little less self-conscious about him shooting me down on Alderaan

[VanorDM]

I have to wonder if it's just that there is no way the Council would ever sanction any Jedi ever having a relationship with Doc.

 

Well that might be it, it's not so much that the issue is with female knights, the issue is with Doc...

 

Which if you were to ask him, I'm sure he'd say it's because he's so charming, lovable, smart and all around amazing, there's no way a woman could avoid becoming hopefully obsessed with him...

 

But most likely either the writer didn't put in a LS option, or else maybe there is one and you missed it, because with the male Knight, you get one romance option that seems to a branching point in the romance arc with Kira.

[Meira_Arirai]

Well that might be it, it's not so much that the issue is with female knights, the issue is with Doc...

 

Which if you were to ask him, I'm sure he'd say it's because he's so charming, lovable, smart and all around amazing, there's no way a woman could avoid becoming hopefully obsessed with him... .

This.

 

There's an exhaustive thread over on the Knight boards asking anyone who's achieved a 0DSP marriage to Doc to share their secrets, but no one's talking so far. Until someone else rolls up to tell me that I'm talking out of my butt again, my working theory is going to be that the writers didn't include the option.

[VanorDM]

my working theory is going to be that the writers didn't include the option.

 

All things considered that seems most likely. Which is too bad, because it makes the game look bad IMO. Why they would include 0DS options for male knights and female consulars but not female knights... It simply smacks of poor design.

 

I have a consular but he's only lvl 20 so I have no idea if there's 0 DS romance options for him or not.

[RowanThursday]

Some great points made by many.

 

I'd add that, additionally, rules are interpreted and enforced by people, whose attitude changes over time.

 

Watching the films, it's pretty obvious that, for all Anakin *thinks* he's keeping it all a dead secret, although Obi-Wan's shocked by the tragic consequences, he's not exactly shocked by "Anakin's in a relationship with that woman he's loved for as long as I can remember". I got the distinct impression that he'd known full well they were married- or, at least, living together, but had been blinded by his trust in Anakin enough to think "So what, he's not said, I'm not asking, that's his business".

 

In the Prequel era, the Jedi's treatment of romance and attachment is governed by the attitude of Masters like Mace Windu, with all the people skills of a Sith Juggernaut on a sugar high, and Yoda, who for all his brilliance, tends to be somewhat detached from such things.

 

In the TOR era, we have a Jedi Council governed by Satele Shan, who's probably somewhat more of a ruthless pragmatist. Remember, the attitude of two teachers to the Jedi code (in the 'Padawans in love' subplot) could well be a *lot* more reactionary and 'by the book' than the attitude of plenty of other Jedi, whose opinions could range the full spectrum from:

 

"Well, I know the Code *says* that, but it's a bit of a daft idea, let's pay lip service by having something in the wedding vows about one's universal duty coming first, then move on"

 

to

 

"Yes, it's a rule... but biological nature is what it is, and you have to pragmatically balance on a case-by-case basis... if denying love is going to lead to more emotional imbalance and suffering than embracing it, then go for what makes sense"

 

to

 

"Absolutely no attachment because there's always a risk of suffering and what do you mean all of my hormonal teenage padawans have fallen to the dark side because I wouldn't let them go out on dates, darn it!"

 

Note that, just as with Little Ani, in the Padawan subplot here, it wasn't attachment that pushed them toward questionable actions- attempted bribery and briefly contemplated violence to protect their secret- it was the fear of being discovered because they'd been told it was forbidden. If Satele Shan had posted a notice on the doors of the Temple to the effect of "It's not my business what Padawans get up to in their own time, just don't do it with the training droids or in the Council Chamber... *or* on the giant holocron in the vestibule, please, you'll fall off"... then the dark side temptation wouldn't have been an issue.

 

Jedi precepts are philosophical verging on religious. It's highly unlikely there was *ever* a complete, unified, and entirely consistent consensus. If there were, it'd be the first time in the history of *any* religious philosophy!

Edited February 28, 2012 by RowanThursday