Bioware, accept responsibility for your crappy engine.

[Mannic]

You know this because you have had a chance to review the code??

 

If not, then this is opinion, rather then fact.

 

Please explain to us, in detail, your background in computer programming.

 

It's funny that the people who are self-confessed neophytes on this issue are the ones most likely to insist the problem is not Bioware's. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't give an opinion one way or the other.

[Mannic]

Which pretty much validates that there IS a localized issue on Ilum that they have yet to fix. Something that localized isn't an engine problem, it's something else with the design of that particular zone and they need to find it and fix it.

 

The fact that your performance everywhere else is 50+ says the engine itself is fine. I get similar results as you do -10fps on average from your numbers (I play on a gaming laptop).

 

Sure some people are having specific issues, and it is likely some interdependency between their rig and the game engine. That does not = the engine suxors, yada yada.

 

People that say it's all the engine are oversimplifying the discussion and ignoring the fact that there are thousands of combinations of rigs out there and that (excluding Ilum), a minority of players are having actual FPS issues. If it was the engine, then the majority of players would have serious fps issues.

 

And the fact that you can play some other game at Xfps is a complete non-sequitor to the discussion of frame rates inside this game.

 

The problem isn't localized. It's general. Anywhere you get masses of character collected together, the game lags all to hell. That's not a "localized" issue. If the 50 people were fighting on Tatooine, the problem would be just as bad. If they were fighting on Belsavis the problem would be just as bad. If they were fighting on fleet people's computers would explode. Yeah, people don't complain about FPS on Taris. There's 30 people on Taris and spread out throughout the zone.

 

Stop regurgitating BW's PR.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Mannic

[Andryah]

Bioware's the one pretending that the problems don't exist and that it's only "low-end" hardware that can't play their game.

 

On the contrary, they take the issue seriously enough to put a special team inside dedicated to resolving every fps issue. Their words, not mine. All the said in last weeks Q&A was a comment about the team + a comment about a pending fix for one issue for lower performance machines.

 

The more Bioware talks the more I lose the last slivers of respect I had for them as a developer.

 

Honestly Mannic, I have yet to see a post of yours where you spoke about Bioware with anything other then disrespect. I have never seen you speak from a position of respect.

[Andryah]

Please explain to us, in detail, your background in computer programming.

 

I'm not the one claiming sweeping statements as facts in the absence of any reasonable basis for facts.

 

It's OK to have an opinion by the way. But to say the code is poorly written without actual access to the code is opinion (speculative opinon), NOT fact.

[Mannic]

On the contrary, they take the issue seriously enough to put a special team inside dedicated to resolving every fps issue. Their words, not mine. All the said in last weeks Q&A was a comment about the team + a comment about a pending fix for one issue for lower performance machines.

 

 

 

Honestly Mannic, I have yet to see a post of yours where you spoke about Bioware with anything other then disrespect. I have never seen you speak from a position of respect.

 

It's convenient for you that the pre-release forums were wiped.

 

I respect developers who fess up to problems. Bioware hasn't copped to anything. It's always someone else's fault or else "localized" issues to make it sound like it's just you, and not thousands of other people having a problem.

 

Remember back in pre-release when people first started seeing lots of screenshots and complaining about how crappy and cartoonish the graphics were? And do you remember the argument from fanboys about why that was ok?

 

Because "stylized" graphics DON'T require a beast of a machine to run.

 

Now it turns out that, per the defenders in this thread, what we've received is a game with lower-end graphics quality that requires a beast of a machine to run.

 

Yet saying that the engine sucks is a "sweeping statement" in your opinion? Come on.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Mannic

[Andryah]

The problem isn't localized. It's general. Anywhere you get masses of character collected together, the game lags all to hell. That's not a "localized" issue. If the 50 people were fighting on Tatooine, the problem would be just as bad. If they were fighting on Belsavis the problem would be just as bad. If they were fighting on fleet people's computers would explode. Yeah, people don't complain about FPS on Taris. There's 30 people on Taris and spread out throughout the zone.

 

Well, most people are able to move around in fleet with in excess of 100 people in a localized area and not have problems. So yeah, it is localized. It may be localized, by the way to combat, and that can be a lot of things besides the engine on the client side of things.

[ztee]

I get massive FPS drops when there are more than around 25 - 30 people on my screen or in the immidiate area. This is not zone / hardware based (i have a $6k PC that is extreme overkill) ...

 

If they dispersed the objectives on illum, and you got valor / quest completion for these objectives you would find people would not have to form massive zerg fests and the population would spread around the zone. Illum is fine for me if im riding around with 5 or so people and then engage up to 10.

[Andryah]

I respect developers who fess up to problems. Bioware hasn't copped to anything. It's always someone else's fault or else "localized" issues to make it sound like it's just you, and not thousands of other people having a problem.

 

That is an inaccurate statement. They have admitted to many things since launch and have taken steps to make improvements AND are still doing so. Stating that you have a dedicated team working inside Bioware to address FPS issues IS an asmission on their part that they not only acknowledge there are issues, but that they are committed to working on them.

 

You are exaggerating to justify the disrespect you throw at them in virtually every post you make.

[noodlehaus]

tried logging into wow again last night. ran the game at ultra. played some BGs, chilled in SW. enjoyed the smoothness of the game. it was refreshing.

 

i suggest you folks do the same to calm yourselves down.

[Mannic]

Well, most people are able to move around in fleet with in excess of 100 people in a localized area and not have problems. So yeah, it is localized. It may be localized, by the way to combat, and that can be a lot of things besides the engine on the client side of things.

 

First of all, saying "most" people can do it is a reach. Secondly, people aren't fighting in Fleet. They're standing around or emoting or doing nothing. There shouldn't be anyone complaining about FPS issues in fleet. It's a tiny zone where nothing is happening except people idling.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Mannic

[Andryah]

I get massive FPS drops when there are more than around 25 - 30 people on my screen or in the immidiate area. This is not zone / hardware based (i have a $6k PC that is extreme overkill) ...

 

I believe you. The thing is though, not everyone is experiening the same problem.

[noodlehaus]

BW adding a "very low" shader setting and turning off lasers that should be firing aren't really solutions to the problem. it's just them saying "ok, nothing's really wrong with the engine, but your performance is still crappy. let's just turn off some bells and whistles and make this game really look terrible but playable so you can still enjoy it.".

 

not really a fix you know.

 

That is an inaccurate statement. They have admitted to many things since launch and have taken steps to make improvements AND are still doing so. Stating that you have a dedicated team working inside Bioware to address FPS issues IS an asmission on their part that they not only acknowledge there are issues, but that they are committed to working on them.

 

You are exaggerating to justify the disrespect you throw at them in virtually every post you make.

[traft]

Everyone in my guild has fps issues, the number that post about them non-stop = zero. Does that mean the problem doesn't exist? No.

 

People are resorting to move cache files to ramdrives to speed up performance, that doesn't suggest it is a problem with individuals, but is a problem with the game engine/3d engine/design of the client.

 

The game doesn't handle high load very well, it isn't designed from the ground up to run well on any machine remotely close to their recommended settings. Lowering the graphic quality isn't the answer, but it is a cheap/quick solution.

 

If they come out and say they need to re-design the engine and it is going to come 12 months down the track in a paid for expansion then people will give them the bird.

[Red_Vs_Blue]

aight if you have an AMD 6850. lower some of your AA stuff there and set your GPU to 900MHz and your high performance memory clock to 1155MHz. I did that and now my game runs on high with good fps. Hope it helps.

[Mannic]

Stating that you have a dedicated team working inside Bioware to address FPS issues IS an asmission on their part that they not only acknowledge there are issues, but that they are committed to working on them.

 

 

FPS issues "on lower end machines." Their solution? An "ultra-low quality" setting.

 

Really? You're going to defend that as "committed to working on issues?"

 

Bioware is basically saying, "our engine sucks so bad, we're going to have to make the graphics EVEN WORSE for it to work on the bulk of machines."

[Fafryd]

The engine needs major work.

 

It is clear that there is an engine problem when you hang opening your inventory (from the run and open test). It is clear that there is an engine problem when you hang in Ilum on quest updates.

 

Adding a very low xxx option doesn't solve the engine problems at all.

[Griminal]

He didnt post his system specs genius. Go ahead, make my day.

 

LOL

 

How about you watch more than 4 seconds of the video. Biodrone detected

[noodlehaus]

"not everyone experiencing it" is not the same as "no one experiences it".

 

"not my problem" is not the same as "not everyone's problem".

 

I believe you. The thing is though, not everyone is experiening the same problem.

[Andryah]

First of all, saying "most" people can do it is a reach. Secondly, people aren't fighting in Fleet. They're standing around or emoting or doing nothing. There shouldn't be anyone complaining about FPS issues in fleet. It's a tiny zone where nothing is happening except people idling.

 

Yet early on, the most common complaint was stutterin in fleet.

 

I already acknowledged that the most serious issue with fps may well be directly related to combat. And with that in mind, it is just as possible that they have server side issues, or poor optimization of data between servers and client, or any of a number of very valid possibilities. So, ranting all the blame onto the game engine is not only speculation at best, but it is speculation in the absence of understanding everything that is at play during combat in game. ONLY Bioware has the data to assess that. Everything shared here on the forums by players is opinion/speculation.

[JonnyLoveMachine]

I run 10 fps with ~100 people in the battle, which does suck but is expected since it has to render each person and their spells.

 

No other game do you have that much to render.

 

Half of the people in Ilum are AFK. 50 v 50 is actually 15 v 15 with 25 afkers on each side. So it really is 15 vs 15 to render. That isnt that much. With Tera and Guidl wars 2 I can pull pretty much 80fps+ at all times no matter what I run into.

 

My second and third box all suffer from the same problem.

 

My 2nd box is a quad core q6600 8 gigs of ram and a 6570.

 

My third box is a turd and runs almost at the same pace as my high end box in high stress situations. q6600 with 8800 gts and also 8gigs of ram.

 

My second and third box are my old work comps.

Edited February 27, 2012 by JonnyLoveMachine

[noodlehaus]

Yet early on, the most common complaint was stutterin in fleet.

 

exactly. in a place that's idle but crowded, having low FPS on a high-end machine is not a good indication of how well the game performs.

[Mannic]

Everyone in my guild has fps issues, the number that post about them non-stop = zero. Does that mean the problem doesn't exist? No.

 

People are resorting to move cache files to ramdrives to speed up performance, that doesn't suggest it is a problem with individuals, but is a problem with the game engine/3d engine/design of the client.

 

The game doesn't handle high load very well, it isn't designed from the ground up to run well on any machine remotely close to their recommended settings. Lowering the graphic quality isn't the answer, but it is a cheap/quick solution.

 

If they come out and say they need to re-design the engine and it is going to come 12 months down the track in a paid for expansion then people will give them the bird.

 

Exactly. The mere fact you can put the game on a RAMDRIVE and suddenly see a 30% to 40% boost in FPS simply proves how crappy the memory interaction of this engine is. Hell, Tatooine runs at over 200 FPS for me when I do that, but it's a pain in the ***, forces you to basically permanently commit system resources to TOR and only TOR, and shouldn't be necessary.

 

Why does Beslavis take 45 seconds to load? My HDD can transfer data at >100 MB/S? How big is Belsavis in terms of data? 500 MB at the most? So my HDD can transfer the data for the zone in ~5 to 6 seconds. Where's the other 35 second of delay coming from? Decompression? If the zone is 500 MB, why is it taking my computer 35 seconds to decompress what would be 300 MB or so of data? The levels didn't take that long to load in Beta. What changed? I know my computer didn't.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Mannic

[JonnyLoveMachine]

Exactly. The mere fact you can put the game on a RAMDRIVE and suddenly see a 30% to 40% boost in FPS simply proves how crappy the memory interaction of this engine is. Hell, Tatooine runs at over 200 FPS for me when I do that, but it's a pain in the ***, forces you to basically permanently commit system resources to TOR and only TOR, and shouldn't be necessary.

 

Why does Beslavis take 45 seconds to load? My HDD can transfer data at >100 MB/S? How big is Belsavis in terms of data? 500 MB at the most? So my HDD can transfer the data for the zone in ~5 to 6 seconds. Where's the other 35 second of delay coming from? Decompression? If the zone is 500 MB, why is it taking my computer 35 seconds to decompress what would be 300 MB or so of data? The levels didn't take that long to load in Beta. What changed? I know my computer didn't.

 

The problem is how everything renders. It has been said multiple times. This thing will kill hard ware with the way it imports data. It makes your gpu run hard to put info on demand instead of doing it gradually. It will tax your CPU + ram in the same way. There is a thread here on the forums made by someone much more sober than I that covers all this.. I cant be arsed to find it.

Edited February 27, 2012 by JonnyLoveMachine

[Andryah]

FPS issues "on lower end machines." Their solution? An "ultra-low quality" setting.

 

Really? You're going to defend that as "committed to working on issues?"

 

Mannic, I'm not defending anything, nor am I attacking anything. I'm having a discussion about the topic at hand. And I am making a reasonable observation that Bioware takes the issues seriously if they are going to dedicate resources in a special team inisde their offices.

 

They made two specific comments in the last Q&A: 1) that they had a dedicated team working on fps issues 2) that team in fact was releasing a fix for low/mid range machines that they believe will help those users. NOWHERE did they say that was it, done, finnished, disbanding team, game over.

 

Bioware is basically saying, "our engine sucks so bad, we're going to have to make the graphics EVEN WORSE for it to work on the bulk of machines."

 

You really are in no objective position to put words in Biowares mouths. Look, you can continue with the disrespectful attacks on Bioware if you like, but it does not further the discussion, it just makes you look like a rager.

[Andryah]

The problem is how everything renders. It has been said multiple times. This thing will kill hard ware with the way it imports data. It makes your gpu run hard to put info on demand instead of doing it gradually. It will tax your CPU + ram in the same way. There is a thread here on the forums made by someone much more sober than I that covers all this.. I cant be arsed to find it.

 

I don't think any of us have enough detailed information on how the application works to make generalized statements like this. We can each share observations about how our particular system functions.

 

I am not running on a top end rig (it's a newer gaming laptop), yet I do not have my CPU or GPU taxed anywhere near their limits. Same for Memory usage. I run at 1920 with all high settings (except shadows set to low). I dont suffer fps drops and stuttering anywhere in game (except Illum).

 

I cannot refute the claims of others, and I am sure some people are having issues. But my point is that none of us knows enough to make these sorts sweeping judgements about the software.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Andryah