I feel bad for tanks

[DiabloRobotico]

Out of all the ops ive run with people they always want to run with 1 tank and ONLY 1 tank. So spots in groups are very few and far between for them. So for people LFG they're always stuck having to respec into DPS or reroll another character altogether. I know I'm going to get some obvious "get yourself a guild" responses, but I'm just talking about the state of tanking in this game altogether.

 

Am I the only one who has had this experience or am I completely off?

[Relith]

I agree there isnt enough flexibility in group composition. For most FP (with a couple exceptions) your group must be 1 tank 2 dps 1 healer or you run into enrage timers.

 

However, I disagree the tank is being left out. On my server at least, groups are always being held up while waiting for a tank. If anything, dps classes have the most to complain about because every single class can do their role if specced that way. A tank/healer can fill a dps role with a dps spec. DPS classes have no such freedom.

 

 

As a healer, I am not the best person to ask who is in higher demand, healer or tank, because as a healer, I never spend 45 minutes waiting for a healer to join...but I have waited that long for a tank before the group dissolving. DPS on the otherhand, I can pick up 2 dps in a minute, just about any hour of the day. They are a dime a dozen. Fleet general chat is nothing but "dps lfg".

[SalsaDMA]

I agree there isnt enough flexibility in group composition. For most FP (with a couple exceptions) your group must be 1 tank 2 dps 1 healer or you run into enrage timers.

 

However, I disagree the tank is being left out. On my server at least, groups are always being held up while waiting for a tank. If anything, dps classes have the most to complain about because every single class can do their role if specced that way. A tank/healer can fill a dps role with a dps spec. DPS classes have no such freedom.

 

 

As a healer, I am not the best person to ask who is in higher demand, healer or tank, because as a healer, I never spend 45 minutes waiting for a healer to join...but I have waited that long for a tank before the group dissolving. DPS on the otherhand, I can pick up 2 dps in a minute, just about any hour of the day. They are a dime a dozen. Fleet general chat is nothing but "dps lfg".

 

It have often been argued that the problem with amount of tanks available for 'small group content' is intricately tied to the problems with amount of tanks required for 'large group content'.

 

In other words, your viewpoint is a reflection caused by the viewpoint of the guy you responded to.

Edited February 27, 2012 by SalsaDMA

[Moosimoo]

Aye I agree with the OP.

 

I was levelling a tank then realised my guild had plenty. Then 1 quit the guild, the other didn't show for an Ops, so we had no Ops. Time to burst that tank to 50 so we can raid. I prefer tanking anyway, always been one when I could, but there is only need for 1 or 2 regular tanks in end-game Ops.

 

I guess if I don't get to play my tank I could fall back on my Merc.

[Dukibritches]

Sounds to me that you guys are in the wrong guilds. My guild actually has more than enough lvl 50 tanks. I usually MT on my Assassin and we have a PT Offtank for our main group. We ended up with more 50's and a couple of them wanted to tank so rather than leaving them out my PT offtank and I both offer to go as DPS for our 2nd group so that everyone in the guild gets their chance at tanking. Once they dont need us to fill spots I'll just have one of our new tanks lead our 2nd core raid group through ops while I lead our first main group through Ops.

 

Currently our first group has moved on to only Hard Mode content (cleared 10/10) so once they are clear for the week we still have our normal lockout available to help out the 2nd group.

 

I also make an effort to let my PT offtank go as MT in our first group and I'll OT instead. I think people just need to step down sometimes and share the wealth. None of the content in this game is hard enough to justify only allowing the person with the best gear to MT raids.

 

With that said, we are always welcoming new members, so if you are on my server and you are looking for a guild, hit me up in game. If I'm not around just shoot me some mail or something.

 

Viridiana

<Darkness Within>

Server: The Maw

West Coast US-PVP

Edited February 28, 2012 by Dukibritches

[xioix]

Out of all the ops ive run with people they always want to run with 1 tank and ONLY 1 tank. So spots in groups are very few and far between for them. So for people LFG they're always stuck having to respec into DPS or reroll another character altogether. I know I'm going to get some obvious "get yourself a guild" responses, but I'm just talking about the state of tanking in this game altogether.

 

Am I the only one who has had this experience or am I completely off?

 

Same boat here.

 

Once I was ready to do 8 and 16 mans, I was forced to play melee dps because my guild already has a main tank. I left and joined 2 other guilds and same situation. Just no spot for a main tank.

 

Now I'm a L3 Sith Sorc (yes, I re-rolled last night after being told yet again to spec DPS).

 

If you are interested in doing endgame raiding (HM FPs is not endgame raiding), the most needed classes are healers and then dps. I'm not even listing tanks here because guilds alreayd have a main tank, a substitute main tank that's currently playing dps, and possibly another standby main tank who's also playing dps.

 

Check out the same thread I created a while back - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=292867

Edited February 28, 2012 by xioix

[Relith]

It have often been argued that the problem with amount of tanks available for 'small group content' is intricately tied to the problems with amount of tanks required for 'large group content'.

 

In other words, your viewpoint is a reflection caused by the viewpoint of the guy you responded to.

 

 

 

Yep, very correct, my bad. When I first read the post I saw op and for some reason thought ops were the 4 person missions, which is funny considering I use FP in my reply to refer to 4 person groups. Bah, every mmo has to have their own terminology :/ What was wrong with group and raid??

 

Anyhow, the op has a good point, and I feel it carries over into FP as well (and yes, this time I mean the 4 man group) In both FP and ops, there is not enough ways to fight bosses like there is in more quality(refined?) mmorpgs. I remember in Everquest there was this one guild who was always in lock step with us in progression in every single expansion. They were a tank heavy guild who would progress just as quickly as our dps heavy (tank light) guild by doing the same fights with different tactics. They would for instance use their overabundance of tanks to kite around adds during boss fights with their shadowknights, or rely more heavily on group heals with all their paladins. The point was, they would come to the fight with a different set of tools, and establish a completely different way of defeating the encounter. If we tried to do it their way, we would die, if they tried our way, the same result would occur.

 

In this game...we have the enrage timer. The source of much evil. With the enrage timer, there is only one tactic, and that tactic is called "DPS your balls off and try to keep everyone alive until the end". This tactic often only needs 1 tank, or on some encounters, preferably 0 tanks. Sometimes you only need just 1 healer. The encounters where you need 2 tanks, you can just sub in a person for that one fight and then promptly replace them with a dps.

 

So in short, the enrage timer needs to go, and boss fights need to be a bit more dynamic in the approaches you can take. Only in this way will the tank issue be solved reasonably.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Relith

[subrosian]

So in short, the enrage timer needs to go, and boss fights need to be a bit more dynamic in the approaches you can take. Only in this way will the tank issue be solved reasonably.

 

Enrage timers are important. They prevent every encounter from having to use soft enrages, they actually create the need for DPS (why bother even having a chance of a wipe otherwise? Form a group of entirely Tanks and Healers) and they're a gear-check that keeps players from zerging Nightmare modes as soon as they hit 50.

 

Without enrage timers, every encounter would be a binary Healing check - you either heal enough and win or you don't. You will never see enrage timers go away because healing is a binary function while DPS is a linear function - and yes, that's important because healing cannot be constantly boosted against rising boss damage or it would create insane balance issues (such as what happened to WoW during Wrath, when encounters were literally designed to 2-shot tanks and ignore tank mitigation because HP pools and healing got out-of-control).

 

-

 

The so-called "issue" with Tanks in Operations is that most Tanks are bad... and I don't just mean they play poorly, I mean they have attitude issues, reliability issues or are unwilling to put the group before themselves. I know that's harsh, but it's true. Most Tanks are not particularly skilled at their jobs, we've run into that issue, and in fact *every guild I've talked to* as run into that issue, to the point where I've had the top guilds on my server wanting me to replace their Tanks as soon as mine hits 50 this weekend: they desperately need an experienced, reliable player.

 

Since Tanks really can't be PUG'd, unlike DPS, you're in the situation of having this player you need to heavily gear whom your entire revolves around. If that player is flake, or turns out not to be good enough to reach your desired progression level, you hit a screaming brick wall and it's a disaster. It's not that there "aren't Tank spots", it's that Tanking is a far more complex role than it might seem like when you're leveling, and no guild that wants to be around is going to put that responsibility on someone without a track record unless they're absolutely desperate.

 

The Tanking spots in SWTOR are going to be taken by people who have been playing MMOs for years initially. If you want a real Tanking spot, be prepared to find a good guild, build up a track record and earn that spot.

 

-

 

There are Tank spots. In fact, many of the Tanks who are doing things now are on the guild "we want to replace this person lists", you need to talk to the guilds on your server and sees what's going on - and be prepared to be on a skill level to compete for the spot.

[ImpressiveSir]

I did have a long wall of text post on this topic, but Sobrosian beat me too it.

[Sykomyke]

That's a rather conceited viewpoint there Mr. Orange Text.

 

What makes you think you are good? That isn't an affront to you; what makes you think you are a good tank?

 

For that matter, what makes you think most other tanks are bad? Many people think they do better then they are; that much I'll agree to, and I'd like to point that statement back to you as well.

 

The role of tank in the operations thus far is insanely easy for most bosses. Karagga? Probably the easiest final boss ever. But he's not the gate in that raid, the real gate in KP is Bonethraser (to an extent because it's a tankless boss) and G4-B3 (the real gate).

In EV, there's not really a gate. All of the bosses are easy with the exception of Soa.

 

But I digress, unless a tank is consistently and for lengthy periods of time losing aggro when they shouldn't, they are doing their job.

 

I'd just be interested in seeing what you think is a "bad tank" at this point in time in SWTOR.

[origamikitsune]

Even if there were 20 ways to kill a boss, how long would it be until the fastest / easiest way was found, and groups started only doing it that way? Exceptions that prove the rule would exists, of course, they always do, but its the way most gamers are. And the more viable means there are to kill a boss, the easier it becomes to exploit because it is harder to balance.

 

I suppose a solution would be that the mobs do different things based on your party make up (for example, a boss that uses a draw-in attack against a ranged tank, and a knock back attack against melee - or won't interrupt healing if you have one healer, but will if you have two) but then you run into the balancing problem again - the more programming required to write the boss's AI, the harder it is to keep from breaking the game, or being broken.

 

That said, as a tank, I never have to wait for a party except when I play during the dead hours, or I am willing to only do one specific thing. But then, everyone has to wait in those situations. Even then, I don't usually have to wait more then 10min or so. And in all the OPs I've done, I've always had two tanks.

[Bearonkeila]

Despite how easy the endgame content is atm, remember that it was pretty much BW's first shot at it. now that gear/skill/player abilities are more firmly tested, I'm sure we'll see an increase in difficulty of the newer content. and with it, a bit more structural requirements for tanks.

 

Also, keep in mind, only a certain kind of person can tank <well> and for prolonged periods of time. I'm sure people will come and go and you'll get your shot. and if subs keep/start going up, you'll see more groups forming with increased need of your tank.

[Mordekiem]

Dual specs shouldn't be too far off. That will solve your should I tank or should I DPS problem.

[subrosian]

What makes you think you are good? That isn't an affront to you; what makes you think you are a good tank?

 

I'm a former pro-gamer. My retirement account was funded by people who asked the same question.

 

As for why I'm good: discipline. Most people just play games, they do not sit down and actively think "I am going to seek feedback on _________ and work to improve ___________ this play session". It's like the people you see at the gym - y'know the ones who go 3+ times a week but look the same every week when you see them?

 

What happened? There's a difference between "going" and "training" that they're missing. With games, there's a difference between "playing" and "improving".

 

 

 

 

 

 

For that matter, what makes you think most other tanks are bad? Many people think they do better then they are; that much I'll agree to, and I'd like to point that statement back to you as well.

 

Not think, know.

 

The average player is just sitting there playing the game. They aren't actively thinking, aware and making good decisions. You can see it in their play, when you PVP, when you raid, you can see they are just following the same sequence of button presses and movements.

 

They're aren't adaptive, the don't anticipate, they don't communicate, they generally perform poorly. The average player is bad, it always will be that way, because the average player isn't looking to get anything out of the game beyond a thrill.

 

 

 

 

 

The role of tank in the operations thus far is insanely easy for most bosses. Karagga? Probably the easiest final boss ever. But he's not the gate in that raid, the real gate in KP is Bonethraser (to an extent because it's a tankless boss) and G4-B3 (the real gate).

In EV, there's not really a gate. All of the bosses are easy with the exception of Soa.

 

But I digress, unless a tank is consistently and for lengthy periods of time losing aggro when they shouldn't, they are doing their job.

 

I'd just be interested in seeing what you think is a "bad tank" at this point in time in SWTOR.

 

The content being easy is irrelevant. The content will get harder over time, and when it does, the players who are building bad habits are putting themselves at a disadvantage. Look, there's no difference between the smoker who eats at McDonalds every day, and the "health freak" at 18... but when 40 rolls around, I can tell you which one of them is going to get up a flight of stairs without feeling like a 100-year old man.

 

The habits of being a good tank are important to build now.

 

 

Right now in SWTOR a bunch of players and guilds have gotten used to the idea of clearing all their farm content without a single wipe. You have players right now who I can tell you for a fact are ticking time bombs. They have been 3+ months without seeing a wipe. The idea for them that they're going to go from "easy 4 hours a week get all my loot" to doing actual raiding where they might spend 4 hours wiping on a boss come 1.2? That's going to destroy so many guilds.

 

It's going to be even worse for the guilds that have bad policies in place - where they've been letting attendance slide, building up huge EP totals in points-systems during farm, overstaffing their Officer core, etc... there are going to be some major guild blowouts in 1.2, and when that happens, that's going to create opportunities for players who are building good habits to get raid spots.

 

I can tell you for a fact that we'll be recruiting in 1.2 because the opportunity for sniping some of the players we've wanted is high, and that's a really great time for us to bring new blood on board and test them out. So if you're a Tank looking for a raid spot, and are serious about focusing for 9 ~ 12 hours a week (work hard, play hard) I have a raid spot waiting for you, hands down, no questions.