the 'bubble' is overpowered, nerf it!

[TetraCleric]

That's the metric I use to tell how good a Sorc is. Are they using their most powerful heal on other players at every opportunity?

 

It's pretty inefficient to bubble everyone off CD in a warzone, particularly during an engagement. I do however throw bubbles when I am not directly involved in an engagement. As a DPS sorc, the bubble has the most force per use out of every ability we have, other than Force Storm.

Edited February 24, 2012 by TetraCleric

[Zunayson]

what's really funny is the bubble is usually 1 shot by any decently geared player, so anything but a "pre bubble" is basically just a traded global CD.

 

This. Ambush usually hits for 1k AFTER the bubble.

 

So that's a 2k bubble

 

Not OP at all IMO.

[justcallmetarzan]

I am a battlemaster immortal juggernaut. By the time I can get a sorc/sage bubble gone I am around 50% health and he is recasting it. So what gives here?

 

"I am a battlemaster immortal juggernaut. "

[Zunayson]

It's pretty inefficient to bubble everyone off CD in a warzone, particularly during an engagement. I do however throw bubbles when I am not directly involved in an engagement. As a DPS sorc, the bubble has the most force per use out of every ability we have, other than Force Storm.

 

Because deionization (The thing that doesn't allow bubbling) lasts shorter than the actual bubble, and that the bubble's strength is not dependent on it's remaining duration, there is a constant effeciency. Although usually you may want to bubble them as late as possible to make the bubble count, preferably if they leave you. If they stay with you, you can always rebubble em.

[Khadroth]

The value is not too broken (~2500-3000) but a bubble does absorb the damage portion of certain cc's making them not fire off on the person (Force Push, etc.).

 

So besides the damage mitigate it is a form of cc evasion. Don't believe me? test it.

 

I don't believe you, and I test it every day. It does not prevent CC in any form, you probably just didn't realize the person was resolve immune still.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Khadroth

[pinkfreudHC]

For those who don't know: Bubble standard practices:

 

Start of round, starting at 20 seconds bubble as many people as possible, melee tanks first, melee DPS second, and then non-sorc healers last.

 

In combat: Ball Carrier first, healers second

 

Otherwise: People who are low on health or will obviously be getting into the thick of it really soon.

 

Other people may get one if I feel like it, but the above are my priorities.

[jolleebindu]

It's a GCD traded before they matter. And, from my POV, it's not the bubble that's OP. It's Force Speed + AoE KB/Root + channeled attack that slows + self-heals + Bubble that's the issue.

 

in order to get the spammable slow and the kb +root you need hybrid specs

 

force speed +self-heals is op only if you used your stun/root too early i.e. when first attacking the sorc/sage

 

bubble is less powerful on its caster than many other defensive abilities during group fights, but it is more apparent because it counts as healing while the other mitigation abilities don't

[MiketheApostate]

:trollface:

 

has nothing to do with my server population and complete lack of competent players, it's just my class.

 

hint: I regularly am allowed to freecast in warzones because of how dumb people are.

Honestly, I get more kills because of this than anything.

[TetraCleric]

Because deionization (The thing that doesn't allow bubbling) lasts shorter than the actual bubble, and that the bubble's strength is not dependent on it's remaining duration, there is a constant effeciency. Although usually you may want to bubble them as late as possible to make the bubble count, preferably if they leave you. If they stay with you, you can always rebubble em.

 

 

I was speaking from a DPS perspective, not a healers.

[Sirolos]

Acting as if every attack does 3k+ damage is really, a stupid argument though.

 

There's not a single class that can put up 3k+ damage every attack automatically in a PvP situation.

 

Taking a Shadow as an example Clairvoyant Strike will do like 1800 (IF it crits, 35% chance), that's half a bubble. Otherwise it's doing 1000. That's 3 GCD if it doesn't crit, 2 if it crits both times. Shadow Strike, Project and Shadow Breach can all do 3k+, upwards of 3800 with BM gear, but they all require melee range, positioning, a stack of procs, and then the actual percent chance of critting.

 

30% chance to crit =/= 100% chance to crit. Skills don't do 3k+ without a crit, aside from maybe 1 or 2 Sniper skills I think it's potentially possible.

 

Bubble can also be cast when you're OUTSIDE of melee range on a melee enemy, or when you're LoSing so you're not trading one GCD for their GCD when they're not even near you, or are CC'd.

 

 

 

And big damage attacks, procs, adrenals, relics, etc... aren't always up, either.

 

Speaking from an Assassins PoV, I find bubbles easy to pop when im not being taunted.

 

Deathfield crits for 3k non crit it hits for 2.2k then shock crits for 2k ( depending on the double proc) or hits reliably for 1k.

IMO Madness Assassins work better staying on the target, because they have the same utility that a sorc does.

Lightning discharge + instant crushing darkness DoT's are freakin awesome.

The down side is they are about as squishy as operatives

[iceperson]

You're exaggerating Sorcs being bad just as much as some others exaggerate them being OP.

 

i don't think sorcs are bad at all. i imagine there might be some minor balancing (nerf to damage/healing that is returned via talents), but I don't expect anything major. almost all of the complaints seem to revolve around 1v1 (and not many of those complaints are about getting killed by a sorc) and i haven't seen anything that leads me to believe 1v1 is on the devs radar. unless sorcs are solo killing people in 2-3 GCDs or sorcs start taking players 100-0 while the player doesn't have control of their character then there's just not going to be a lot of nerfing IMO.

[FalmeseReb]

It's not "free" though, and the way you originally worded it, I thought you mean starting a fight with a 6k absorb, as in the bubble absorbed 6k. If you meant using a double bubble, then yea I suppose it is 6k absorbed over the whole battle.

 

ok i'm sorry, you can precast a 3k absorb, and then spend 1 gcd and what 30 force? 50 force? for another 20 seconds later. most battles last longer then 20 seconds (at least they shouldnt against a class so CC laden as a sorcerer). So you can probably get at least 3 bubbles in. that's an extra 9k health for 2 gcds.

[savionen]

in order to get the spammable slow and the kb +root you need hybrid specs

 

force speed +self-heals is op only if you used your stun/root too early i.e. when first attacking the sorc/sage

 

bubble is less powerful on its caster than many other defensive abilities during group fights, but it is more apparent because it counts as healing while the other mitigation abilities don't

 

Defensive abilities also have 1-3 minute cooldowns. A lot of them are better during a burst situation, but end up worse over the duration considering you could potentially bubble 3-10 times.

 

Taking Reactive Shield as an example, 2 minute cooldown. It's 25% damage reduction for 12 seconds. That's only an up time of 10%. You'd have to take a massive amount of damage for that to be better over the duration, and is only really better in a burst situation if you're taking something like 20k+ (mostly internal/elemental) damage over 12 seconds.

 

 

Really it's hard to straight up compare Bubble to another classes Defensive Cooldowns. Sorcs have a lot of CC, and Bubble is also a "heal". Other classes generally have a plethora of defensive cooldowns, but they're situational.

 

 

Speaking from an Assassins PoV, I find bubbles easy to pop when im not being taunted.

 

Deathfield crits for 3k non crit it hits for 2.2k then shock crits for 2k ( depending on the double proc) or hits reliably for 1k.

IMO Madness Assassins work better staying on the target, because they have the same utility that a sorc does.

Lightning discharge + instant crushing darkness DoT's are freakin awesome.

The down side is they are about as squishy as operatives

 

Assassin/Shadow is definitely one of the easier classes to stick on a Sorcerer/Sage with, since they've got a lot of mobility/CC, too, although it can still be a really, really long fight if they know what they're doing.

 

My point was just that most attacks don't instantly burst bubble. Any high-damaging attacks have a cooldown, or require procs, etc.

 

Vanguard being my other example, Ion Pulse only crits for like 1500. Stockstrike requires melee and has a 9sec cooldown. High-Impact Bolt obviously being the high-damage attack has the 15sec cooldown or requires the proc, and still needs to crit to do 3k+ damage.

Edited February 24, 2012 by savionen

[iceperson]

my sorc can shield the whole group 2 times before i go OOF. there's no way i'm going to spam it on every person every time their debuff wears off. Edited February 24, 2012 by iceperson

[athx]

Lol love these arguments.

 

6k bubble? I rarely find myself in that situation where I'm able to time my bubble so that I can get a second one in a warzone. Good players will know who to focus and whatnot. Bad players will let a sage/sorc sit there all day and spam their skills. That's why you see them as top damage.

 

I dont understand how people dont realize we're extremely squishy. We get owned easily by mauraders/powertech/operatives and their respective mirror classes. Problem is, this isn't a 1v1 game.

[Sirolos]

You're exaggerating Sorcs being bad just as much as some others exaggerate them being OP.

 

The average fight doesn't really last less than 10 seconds in PvP unless its a terrible-geared person being ganked or someone being focused down. If a fight lasts 30 seconds you're saying during that entire time you'll never LoS or have the enemy CC'd? Never have a chance to cast a second, or potentially third bubble?

 

If a Sorc doesn't pre-bubble before a fight they know they're getting into they're just being bad.

 

What's Tracer Missile's actual base damage, something like 1800 if the person has no armor? Maybe a 3k crit now?

 

30% chance of critting means the average damage is that 7 of them hit, and the other 3 crit. That's still only an average of 2150~ damage. Meaning it does not blow up a bubble in one hit.

 

Quit acting like Bubble is weak. It's the best instant cast heal in the game for non-healer-specs, and can be cast on other people every 4.5sec and only has a 17sec cooldown to cast on yourself.

 

Tracer missile hits for a lot more than 1800.

 

It sits comfortably around 2.3-2.6k depending on the gear of the opponent and the stacks of the armor pen debuff.

[TetraCleric]

ok i'm sorry, you can precast a 3k absorb, and then spend 1 gcd and what 30 force? 50 force? for another 20 seconds later. most battles last longer then 20 seconds (at least they shouldnt against a class so CC laden as a sorcerer). So you can probably get at least 3 bubbles in. that's an extra 9k health for 2 gcds.

 

It's 65 Force, but that's irrelevant. And really, most engagements last 20-30 seconds at most for me. 30 seconds is if they are a heavy armor class and my FL is only critting for 700ish. Against less geared people, when my FL crits for 1300, engagements are even quicker.

[savionen]

Lol love these arguments.

 

6k bubble? I rarely find myself in that situation where I'm able to time my bubble so that I can get a second one in a warzone. Good players will know who to focus and whatnot. Bad players will let a sage/sorc sit there all day and spam their skills. That's why you see them as top damage.

 

I dont understand how people dont realize we're extremely squishy. We get owned easily by mauraders/powertech/operatives and their respective mirror classes. Problem is, this isn't a 1v1 game.

 

They're not really that squishy.... Half of the damage in this game ignores armor partially or completely. Bubble completely makes up for having Light Armor. Sorcs also have the same amount of HP as any other class (aside from people in tank-gear.)

 

Sorcs are only squishy if they're getting bursted down and/or don't have their cooldowns/CC. Which is the same with every other class.

Edited February 24, 2012 by savionen

[athx]

They're not really that squishy.... Half of the damage in this game ignores armor partially or completely. Bubble completely makes up for having Light Armor.

 

Sorcs are only squishy if they're getting bursted down and/or don't have their cooldowns/CC. Which is the same with every other class.

 

Which is the only damage mitigation that we have. The fact is, sages/sorcs need to be burst down. That's the whole point of this argument. People seem to assume that because we have bubble, we're op but when focused, we get pooped on the quickest. You may account for cc's and whatnot but if people just spam whatever cc they got without thinking of the repercussion from it, then that's their own fault. Honestly, there are a lot of bad people out there who doesnt know when to use their cc/interrupt. If that's the case, there's not much else that can be done other than learn to play their class better.

[TetraCleric]

It's a 3v1... or 3v3... or 3v8 (with us having the 8). That does not change the fact once a group goes into another group the AOE CC's start flying and AOE root knockbacks and then sprints and then chain stunning goes on (at least vs good people... not any of you guys).

 

At even numbers..... Sorc CC is over the top.... especially the AOE crap considering they still have sprint, pull, 4 second stun, cyclone, and a aoe knockback.

 

You can't win an 8v3 engagement but we are bad?

[savionen]

Which is the only damage mitigation that we have. The fact is, sages/sorcs need to be burst down. That's the whole point of this argument. People seem to assume that because we have bubble, we're op but when focused, we get pooped on the quickest. You may account for cc's and whatnot but if people just spam whatever cc they got without thinking of the repercussion from it, then that's their own fault. Honestly, there are a lot of bad people out there who doesnt know when to use their cc/interrupt. If that's the case, there's not much else that can be done other than learn to play their class better.

 

Most defensive cooldowns aren't that great though, they're all very situational and have longer cooldowns.

 

Something like Reactive Shield reduces damage by 25% for 12 seconds. It has a 120 second cooldown. That's only an up-time of 10%. How much damage do you really think Reactive Shield by itself is going to prevent over 12 seconds? 3k? Maybe 10k if you're being bursted A TON and healed at the same time?

 

Sorc/Sage also has by far more CC than any other class. Aside from Bubble their defense comes from that. A 4sec stun, 8sec mez, mez on bubble-break, knockback (with root), snare, and snare on your basic attack, is a lot different than a class that has a 4sec stun that is the same, a weaker 2.5sec stun, and... that's it. And before you mention having a gap-closer, Sage/Sorc also has Force Run.

Edited February 24, 2012 by savionen

[iceperson]

You can't win an 8v3 engagement but we are bad?

 

what's really funny is n+1 sorcs just reduces the effectiveness of our most OP ability (based on forum qq) because the number of shields you can cast doesn't go up...

[athx]

Most defensive cooldowns aren't that great though, they're all very situational and have longer cooldowns.

 

Something like Reactive Shield reduces damage by 25% for 12 seconds. It has a 120 second cooldown. That's only an up-time of 10%. How much damage do you really think Reactive Shield by itself is going to prevent over 12 seconds? 3k? Maybe 10k if you're being bursted A TON and healed at the same time?

 

You're acting as if other classes dont have some sort of defensive capabilities. I'm not even sure what you're trying to gain out of this. I can guarantee you certain classes can burst you real easily within the 20 seconds cooldown (if not specced for it) after putting up shield. Thing is in a real battle situation, there are many things that need to be accommodated for. That shield can only do so much for us and people act like it's a godly skill.

[ImURmaster]

I'd like you to provide a video of someone killing a geared healing Sorc who doesn't suck in a 1v1 situation.

 

Any class. Go ahead.

 

I always get a kick of challenges like this one.

 

If you see a vid of a sorc/sage losing then you disqualify it by saying "they suck". If you see one with them winning then it proves your point. In other words, you have an out for no matter what evidence is provided. Nice...

 

Lets dunk the the heretic, if she dies then she wasn't a witch, if she lives we burn her for being a witch.

 

^^Your argument in a nut shell. No matter what she dies, no matter what you're right^^

[athx]

Most defensive cooldowns aren't that great though, they're all very situational and have longer cooldowns.

 

Something like Reactive Shield reduces damage by 25% for 12 seconds. It has a 120 second cooldown. That's only an up-time of 10%. How much damage do you really think Reactive Shield by itself is going to prevent over 12 seconds? 3k? Maybe 10k if you're being bursted A TON and healed at the same time?

 

Sorc/Sage also has by far more CC than any other class. Aside from Bubble their defense comes from that. Saying that a 4sec stun, 8sec mez, mez on bubble-break, knockback (with root), snare, and snare on your basic attack, is a lot different than a class that has a 4sec stun that is the same, a weaker 2.5sec stun, and... that's it. And before you mention having a gap-closer, Sage/Sorc also has Force Run.

 

And now you're just completely ignoring the fact that other classes have cc's as well. You're also missing the fact of the resolve system. Can't spam all the listed skill. Yes we have a lot of cc capability but the fact is you cant really use all of it if you want to try to maximize it without going into resolve. Just because we have that many doesnt mean that other classes doesnt have cc or a gap closer.

 

Honestly if people think that we're so op, please roll that class so I can have a lvl up my sentinel and face roll sages.