_Marou_ Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) PvE raiding ruins PvP games, and attracts crappy PvP'ers that think they are 1337 because they can 1-shot people with their farmed up gear. Availability of hugely overpowering raid gear forces the developers to make a PvP gear grind or your PvP'ers will have to PvE raid to grind gear to compete with "uber" raid players. Gear grinding shouldn't have a prominent place in PvP, it ruins it. Either you overpower your enemies because you're better geared, or you get killed by a basement dweller using 1 button because his power level is over 9000. It's horrible design, it ruins the fun of PvP. It's also why GW2 is the great white hope right now. As additional raids and thus additional tiers of PvP gear are added the accessibility of level cap PvP stretches further and further from the reach of normal players. WoW never really dealt with this, so the best time to start PvP'ing on a toon was right after a new xpac had come out, thus re-flattening the gear curve. This is an unhealthy model. Possible ways to alleviate this problem: Limited bolster mechanic. Undergeared players are bolstered to a point that the players in top tier raid and pvp gear are 25% better. This doesn't rob such players of the advantages they have earned, but prevents new players from feeling like useless baggage. eg. An attack that hits another geared player for 3000 should be allowed to hit a fresh player for 3600, this is fine. Hitting the fresh player for 4900 when they already have much lower hps is bad PvP design.Introduce a "gear irrelevent" casual WZ bracket; offering much lower rewards, but allowing players to earn baseline gear before they join the big leagues.Allow players to earn a full baseline "blue" PvP set either prior to cap, or through non-PvP activities that bring them within 25% of the current top tier. Everyone has to start end-game somewhere, but as the game matures starting as a worthless wet napkin isn't going to appeal to most people. "Grinding" to leave worthless wet napkin status isn't attractive either. It feeds people valor they didn't earn, and leads to tons of resentment, cancelled accounts, and angry forum posts. Edited February 22, 2012 by _Marou_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicuspid Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 how is this a problem where in every sort of calculation pvp gear with expertise trumps the same level pve gear? and pvp gear is also much easier to obtain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 /5char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 You do know that you are playing a gear progression MMO, right? That is never going to chagne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Marou_ Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) how is this a problem where in every sort of calculation pvp gear with expertise trumps the same level pve gear? and pvp gear is also much easier to obtain. Learn2pass 5th grade reading comprehension? New Raids force them to make new tiers of PvP gear. Fresh 50's will be wearing the same crap a year from now as they are today, but the average gear on level cap players will probably be at least 40% better than it is today. Result? A raider or avid PvP'er that's geared out 2-3 content patches from now will kill a fresh player with an errant fart. Does this sound like an awesome introduction to level cap PvP? Do you want to have the most incredibly tedious experience possible bringing your alts into end-game PvP? Edited February 22, 2012 by _Marou_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruuprect Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Learn2pass 5th grade reading comprehension? New Raids force them to make new tiers of PvP gear. Fresh 50's will be wearing the same crap a year from now as they are today, but the average gear on level cap players will probably be at least 40% better than it is today. Result? A raider or avid PvP'er that's geared out 2-3 content patches from now will kill a fresh player with an errant fart. Does this sound like an awesome introduction to level cap PvP? Do you want to have the most incredibly tedious experience possible bringing your alts into end-game PvP? How do you know they will not introduce more tiers to PvP, and make better PvP gear available at lower levels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Marou_ Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) I don't, but I'd love to see the developers state their plans for the new tier of PvP gear added in 1.2, since it doesn't take a genius to figure out ranked matches will usher in PvP sets more powerful than Battlemaster, and within a few months of the release BattleMaster will be considered the baseline gear acceptable to compete in ranked matches. It's already an unpleasant chore to gear a fresh 50. So, tack an extra 8% disadvantage on top of the issues currently faced by fresh 50's and you're looking at something ugly. Edited February 22, 2012 by _Marou_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicuspid Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Learn2pass 5th grade reading comprehension? New Raids force them to make new tiers of PvP gear. Fresh 50's will be wearing the same crap a year from now as they are today, but the average gear on level cap players will probably be at least 40% better than it is today. Result? A raider or avid PvP'er that's geared out 2-3 content patches from now will kill a fresh player with an errant fart. Does this sound like an awesome introduction to level cap PvP? Do you want to have the most incredibly tedious experience possible bringing your alts into end-game PvP? so the guy who has been at level cap for a year should be on even footing with the new guy? the new guy cant spend ONE WEEK to get his purples from pvp and be more or less even? why dont we just mail every character the best tier items when they create their guy, so upon hitting 50 they can be awesome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Marou_ Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) so the guy who has been at level cap for a year should be on even footing with the new guy? the new guy cant spend ONE WEEK to get his purples from pvp and be more or less even? why dont we just mail every character the best tier items when they create their guy, so upon hitting 50 they can be awesome Asking a player to LEECH from PvP for any length of time before he can start to be useful is broken. It's failed design. The veteran player should have a significant advantage, but not to the point where he can /faceroll and win. Edited February 22, 2012 by Wekeltes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongrul Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 PvE raiding ruins PvP games, and attracts crappy PvP'ers that think they are 1337 because they can 1-shot people with their farmed up gear. Availability of hugely overpowering raid gear forces the developers to make a PvP gear grind or your PvP'ers will have to PvE raid to grind gear to compete with "uber" raid players. Gear grinding shouldn't have a prominent place in PvP, it ruins it. Either you overpower your enemies because you're better geared, or you get killed by a basement dweller using 1 button because his power level is over 9000. It's horrible design, it ruins the fun of PvP. It's also why GW2 is the great white hope right now. As additional raids and thus additional tiers of PvP gear are added the accessibility of level cap PvP stretches further and further from the reach of normal players. WoW never really dealt with this, so the best time to start PvP'ing on a toon was right after a new xpac had come out, thus re-flattening the gear curve. This is an unhealthy model. Possible ways to alleviate this problem: Limited bolster mechanic. Undergeared players are bolstered to a point that the players in top tier raid and pvp gear are 25% better. This doesn't rob such players of the advantages they have earned, but prevents new players from feeling like useless baggage. eg. An attack that hits another geared player for 3000 should be allowed to hit a fresh player for 3600, this is fine. Hitting the fresh player for 4900 when they already have much lower hps is bad PvP design.Introduce a "gear irrelevent" casual WZ bracket; offering much lower rewards, but allowing players to earn baseline gear before they join the big leagues.Allow players to earn a full baseline "blue" PvP set either prior to cap, or through non-PvP activities that bring them within 25% of the current top tier. Everyone has to start end-game somewhere, but as the game matures starting as a worthless wet napkin isn't going to appeal to most people. "Grinding" to leave worthless wet napkin status isn't attractive either. It feeds people valor they didn't earn, and leads to tons of resentment, cancelled accounts, and angry forum posts. this isnt a pvp game genius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Marou_ Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 this isnt a pvp game genius Trolololo Yeah, they want the game to appeal to players that like PvP and PvE, because they want to have tons of customers. Most people like to do both from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBayview Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 You do know that you are playing a gear progression MMO, right? That is never going to chagne. ^ this, qft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongrul Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Trolololo what does this mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicuspid Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 op got owned in his level 40 greens, is mad more at 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Marou_ Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) ^ this, qft It is progression based, because they copied WoW. That doesn't mean they have to copy the broken crap. PvE progression is linear and works. Quest gear --> Flashpoint Gear --> HardMode Gear --> Raid 1 --> 2 --> 3, etc How's that work out for people that like PvE? Fun--> Fun --> Fun --> Fun --> Fun PvP progression doesn't work because there is no linear curve in the "challenge level" of the players you are facing. Quest gear --> baseline geared ---> moderately geared --> /facerolling newbs How's that work out for people that like PvP? Tedious --> Frustrating --> Mostly Fun --> Flat-out Boring It doesn't have to be that way. Edited February 22, 2012 by _Marou_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outkast Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I could understand ppl complained about the Rng system but since the last pvp patch there is no reason to be complaining still.. centurion gear is easily accessible and even possible to get a few pieces when you ding 50 with wz commendations and another few days should get you some peices of champ. You will still lose if you go 1v1 against someone that literally spent full days farming their gear wether its Bm gear or rakata but shouldn't get facerolled, If you do your underskilled. You also shouldn't assume a pve person can't pvp, and some of them are quite good at both with enough experience. You could start raiding.. It is part of the game and ppl should be better geared if they take advantage of the full games content that's what bioware are pushing everyone to do compared to someone who just plays the pvp content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts