Powertech Tank - is the worst PvE tank?

[iSkynet]

I have a powertech tank level 50 with some rakata and columi.

8100 armor

20k life

52% dmg reduction

13% defense

40% shield chance

40% shield chance

101% accuracy

 

But my friend a Sith Assasin with the tank build BUT dps items keeps taking aggro away from me with only a few hits and there is NO chance no matter what I do to get it back (unless I taunt)

 

Our DPS is so bad because of the stupid Heat which increases much more rapidly than the other classes lose energy or force.

 

So the healer ends up healing the dps more than the tank...

The point of this rant is to show that even if I had green items and didn't pay much attention if we had an awesome full rakata Healer it wouldn't matter...

 

So what is the point of getting more and more tanking gear? Since normal mobs or bosses can be tanked without a problem and enraged bosses hit for 40k dmg which cannot be mitigated much by armor and survive (So again assasins are much better because they have more avoidance than PT)

 

What do you guys think? I say we need to be buffed up for our dmg or some heat reduced from abilities

[Livett]

I think I have to agree with you here. I am a 50 tank with mostly Columni/Tionese and I find that when doing operations both normal and HM, I rarely drop below 80% health with good healers. I have been tempted to start going for DPS gear but then when it comes to deciding the tank, any group or guild would choose high endurance and shield chance over high damage.

 

Definately think we need a DPS boost, or an increase to our aggro from IGC.

[iSkynet]

Yes I woudn't mind the DPS staying the same but our aggro skills and output to be increased, I mean our best high-threat ability is the grapple and it cannot be used in most bosses...

 

I'm gonna try and split the gear in 1/2 DPS mods and enchantments and 1/2 absorption and see how it goes...

[Tenacity]

Threat does seem to be a big issue for us at the rakata gear level. Damage-dealers are scaling their damage up much faster than we're scaling threat, probably because we have to focus so heavily on defensive stats which do not improve our threat generation.

 

Think about it, we'll use a mercenary as an example. Going from columi gear to rakata gear, a mercenary will gain 100~ aim, 5%~ crit chance, additional power, tech power, weapon damage, and accuracy. All of these translate to a direct damage increase.

 

A powertech tank going from columi to rakata gear gains far less aim, no crit, no power, a slight tech power increase, slight weapon damage increase, and accuracy - overall a lower gain to damage dealt by our abilities.

 

 

When the DPS can focus entirely on damage dealing stats, while we're focusing almost entirely on health, shield chance, absorption, defense chance, armor, so on and so forth, we're not gaining enough of a threat improvement to keep up.

 

 

 

I think all tanks have this issue. Personally I'd like to see extra set bonuses applied to tanking gear sets:

 

Tionese Supercommando's gear: Increases threat by 5%

Columi Supercommando's gear: Increases therat by 10%

Rakata Supercommando's gear: Increases threat by 15%

 

That would at least help to counteract the extra damage lead that the other classes are gaining.

[Uvirith]

At least Powertech is way better tank than an Assassin or a Juggernaut, by a longshot.

 

So it makes him the.....waiiit a minute ....

Edited February 20, 2012 by Uvirith

[Philmors]

I was under the impression that Jedi Guardians were the worst tanks so far because they get less avoidance by default and generate less aggro. If anything it looks like the other tank classes have tank issues as well but they just run into it later than jedi guardians. So if anything I think what bioware needs to do is just buff threat across the board for all tank classes.

[Ewert]

Ran HM EV last night solo healing, and up to pylons our tank played his PT alt tank. His assassin is 24k hp near full rakata etc.

 

Honestly I could not see much difference in healing needs for his alt nor did I spot any aggro issues generally (and our best dps guys are also near full rakata etc.).

 

That makes ... PT much powerful from that single instance run point of view. =P

[The_Brick]

I have a powertech tank level 50 with some rakata and columi.

8100 armor

20k life

52% dmg reduction

13% defense

40% shield chance

40% shield chance

101% accuracy

 

But my friend a Sith Assasin with the tank build BUT dps items keeps taking aggro away from me with only a few hits and there is NO chance no matter what I do to get it back (unless I taunt)

 

Our DPS is so bad because of the stupid Heat which increases much more rapidly than the other classes lose energy or force.

 

So the healer ends up healing the dps more than the tank...

The point of this rant is to show that even if I had green items and didn't pay much attention if we had an awesome full rakata Healer it wouldn't matter...

 

So what is the point of getting more and more tanking gear? Since normal mobs or bosses can be tanked without a problem and enraged bosses hit for 40k dmg which cannot be mitigated much by armor and survive (So again assasins are much better because they have more avoidance than PT)

 

What do you guys think? I say we need to be buffed up for our dmg or some heat reduced from abilities

Sounds like you need to work on your rotation and your dps buddies need to be more aware of their dps management. PT tanks in an opposite manner than the SW. PT's start with aoe and then phase into single target whereas the SW goes from single to aoe. Now the SW tanking style is easier to manage aggro when you have a bunch of chud pugs who like to top the non-existent dps charts. But if you have responsible dps, PT's actually are better tanks. You can grab the entire group instantly and then focus fire individual targets, but that only works if you have dps who both attack your target and don't spam all of their high damage abilities all at once. But then again, if you don't have a good rotation and don't manage your heat, then you're sol from the get go no matter who you have dps'ing. Edited February 20, 2012 by The_Brick

[AetherMcLoud]

So another tank in DPS gear pulls aggro off you in TANK gear. You don't say?

[Dharagada]

What "stance" was your shadow tank buddy in while he DPSed?

 

Since the Darkness Tree has DPS increasing talents for Dark Charge I'm guessing he was using that, and since dark charge increases his threat generation, and he was wearing DPS gear....

Edited February 20, 2012 by Dharagada

[Ruzena]

I am missing 2 parts of rakata, and I can say its heat problem, for some reason PT heat consumption is jsut far above others. Flame sweep should have reduced heat cost to 16 or even 10 and at least doubled threat. Rocket punch or flame burst should also have some heat reduction and threat up in tanking cylinder. 31 point talent should be something else than nobrainer similiar talent to all other trees. Edited February 20, 2012 by Ruzena

[Crixaliss]

What "stance" was your shadow tank buddy in while he DPSed?

 

Since the Darkness Tree has DPS increasing talents for Dark Charge I'm guessing he was using that, and since dark charge increases his threat generation, and he was wearing DPS gear....

 

This is exactly what I was thinking

 

Why is your friend running with a tank build + dps items? When he's doing that... is he intending to play as dps or as a tank.

 

If he's effectively playing as a tank, then *obviously* he's going to pull aggro from you with extra-threat-stance-plus-higher-dps, and then you guys need to work out between yourself why you're both tanking and who's meant to be taking aggro at any given time.

 

If he's trying to play as a dps, then why is he using a tanking build? and he shouldn't use the high threat stance...

 

 

The OP doesn't make a vast amount of sense without more context (you're the main-tank, he's the off-tank in operations or something?), and I think you need to look around a bit more before you declare powertech's the worst PvE tank (as they're arguably the best).

[iSkynet]

I see your points about the gear that my friend had and it seems logical that he was taking threat. There are however 3 parts were I want to focus:

 

1. I should at some point be able to "take" aggro from him since he had (DPS gear, in tanking stance). I'm not saying always just some times would suffice. There were moments when we stopped dpsing and mobs still were attached...

 

2. PT grapple is useless against boss mobs.

 

3. DPS cannot manage their dmg output because of the "bad implemented" enrage factor. Everyone should DPS like crazy to drop the boss before the enrage timer (or at least drop its life to a reasonable level)

 

Also if there is a table or some info with numbers of the threat on abilities please post a link.

[Splaktar]

Every thread that I've seen is about how much better PT holds aggro compared to a Jugg tank. I guess I haven't seen a whole lot about Assassin tanking, but it does sound like your buddy was doing some really dumb stuff with aggro generation stances/talents.

 

As for grapple not working on bosses, every class has abilities that don't work on bosses.

[Doozzer]

Every thread that I've seen is about how much better PT holds aggro compared to a Jugg tank. I guess I haven't seen a whole lot about Assassin tanking, but it does sound like your buddy was doing some really dumb stuff with aggro generation stances/talents.

 

As for grapple not working on bosses, every class has abilities that don't work on bosses.

 

this stuff.

 

There's nothing wrong with PT tanking, people just don't appreciate what the differences between the tanking styles in this game are.

 

A lot of people like jugger tanks because juggies get good "Oh shi-" buttons. A jugger is more likely to be able to handle temporary gaps in healing or bad transition periods than any other tank because he has a great selection of strong defensive cooldowns. He's a forgiving tank to heal and to play.

 

What makes PT great is that they're amazing utility tanks for aggro grabbing and maneuvering mobs. Assassins and juggs have a hard time positioning their bosses because they only fight in melee. A PT tank can kite his target, taunt from 30 yards, generate threat on his ion cylinder with 30 yard rapid shots, and generally has a better toolbox for gaining snap aggro on packs.

 

In a static tanking environment where the boss doesn't move and the raid doesn't require sophisticated positioning, a jugger tank is usually a safe bet because they're easy.

 

in a dynamic tanking environment where players and mobs have to move, its SHOWTIME for the powertech.

 

You do not have the assassin's dps potential.

 

You do not have the jugger's 'stay alive' buttons.

 

What you do have is utility, and utility is the only thing that cannot be replaced. You dont need an assassin tank to do damage if the DPS section is good. You don't need a jugger tank to have cooldowns up if the heal section is good.

 

Only the powertech brings something that is irreplaceable.

Just wait, the raid community in this game is still very young. Eventually, people will figure out what different tanks do, and what kind of content has what kind of fights, and you're going to see that in fights where positioning and control are paramount, there's going to be a preference for PT tanks.

[Karandor]

this stuff.

 

There's nothing wrong with PT tanking, people just don't appreciate what the differences between the tanking styles in this game are.

 

A lot of people like jugger tanks because juggies get good "Oh shi-" buttons. A jugger is more likely to be able to handle temporary gaps in healing or bad transition periods than any other tank because he has a great selection of strong defensive cooldowns. He's a forgiving tank to heal and to play.

 

What makes PT great is that they're amazing utility tanks for aggro grabbing and maneuvering mobs. Assassins and juggs have a hard time positioning their bosses because they only fight in melee. A PT tank can kite his target, taunt from 30 yards, generate threat on his ion cylinder with 30 yard rapid shots, and generally has a better toolbox for gaining snap aggro on packs.

 

In a static tanking environment where the boss doesn't move and the raid doesn't require sophisticated positioning, a jugger tank is usually a safe bet because they're easy.

 

in a dynamic tanking environment where players and mobs have to move, its SHOWTIME for the powertech.

 

You do not have the assassin's dps potential.

 

You do not have the jugger's 'stay alive' buttons.

 

What you do have is utility, and utility is the only thing that cannot be replaced. You dont need an assassin tank to do damage if the DPS section is good. You don't need a jugger tank to have cooldowns up if the heal section is good.

 

Only the powertech brings something that is irreplaceable.

Just wait, the raid community in this game is still very young. Eventually, people will figure out what different tanks do, and what kind of content has what kind of fights, and you're going to see that in fights where positioning and control are paramount, there's going to be a preference for PT tanks.

 

Assassin tanks actually have great utility and great CDs for tanking. Force shroud is amazing when used properly force speed breaks immobilize and snares (positioning isn't a problem, they also have pull) they have a 24/7 5% AE damage debuff + slow along with a 5% AE accuracy debuff. This along with good self healing (12% every 4-5 GCDs). Assassins' problems tanking are they simply can't reach the armor levels of juggs/PTs for better base mitigation.

 

 

The reason that assassin was DPSing in tank stance is because he probably plays PvP a lot and couldn't be bothered to change his spec. Tank gear sucks in PvP but tank spec does not. Also some people are thinking assassin tank spec may do just as much DPS as the other specs on pro-longed fights due to more stable force usage and regen. Assassins desperately need combat logs to figure things out.

[wingsofcover]

Yeah Tank in DPS gear sounds fishy, but you could always just throw guard on him if he's stealing your aggro.

 

I do love Powertanking, though.

[theKalmo]

Why do you think you should get aggro from someone who has tanking stance and dps gear when you have same stance and tank gear? Ofcourse he's going to pull aggro from you because of the higher dps from his gear and then 'cause that same gear he cannot take the hit and your healer needs to heal like crazy....just sounds like a really bad way to manage ops.

 

Little more dps would be nice since shieldtechs damage is pretty lousy compared to other tanks, I haven't had any problems with holding aggro in any Ops(got columni and some rakata gear) and mostly even heat is not a problem so I would say that the lower dps than other tanks is more of a pvp problem not pve.

[Bobiet]

I see your points about the gear that my friend had and it seems logical that he was taking threat. There are however 3 parts were I want to focus:

 

1. I should at some point be able to "take" aggro from him since he had (DPS gear, in tanking stance). I'm not saying always just some times would suffice. There were moments when we stopped dpsing and mobs still were attached...

 

 

If your friend is running a tanking build, geared for DPS and is in his tanking stance he is always gonna pull aggro off you, and so long as he is dealing damage you have no chance of pulling the mob off him - unless you use your taunt - and even when he stops DPS he will have a lot more threat built up then you - so the mob wont just go straight to you. I will openly admit that my powertech is only lvl 28 at the time im posting this, so no im no expert on tanking as a powertech. No matter what class tank you are the mechanics of threat and aggro are universal.

 

all that is basic meichanics for threat and tanking and after reading this thread you really need to learn to play

[Dharagada]

I see your points about the gear that my friend had and it seems logical that he was taking threat. There are however 3 parts were I want to focus:

 

1. I should at some point be able to "take" aggro from him since he had (DPS gear, in tanking stance). I'm not saying always just some times would suffice. There were moments when we stopped dpsing and mobs still were attached...

 

2. PT grapple is useless against boss mobs.

 

3. DPS cannot manage their dmg output because of the "bad implemented" enrage factor. Everyone should DPS like crazy to drop the boss before the enrage timer (or at least drop its life to a reasonable level)

 

Also if there is a table or some info with numbers of the threat on abilities please post a link.

 

1) No you shouldn't. You are both using threat generating stances, however since your friend has pure dps gear on his damage done is higher pushing him ahead of the threat game. If you both had equal gear then it would be/should be more of a see saw event (basically who ever taunts last has threat) but in pure dps gear he does more damage putting him ahead in the threat game.

 

2) Not unique to PTs, if a boss is immune to grapple it's immune to other abilities that normally displace the target(s).

 

3) Not even sure how to respond to this, this isn't a PT thing, this is you doing something wrong thing.

[Strifegambit]

I am a in 2 peice columni and 1 peice tionese as a merc healer & i prefer to heal PT's over juggs/sins any day of the week, dont know why they are always easier to heal for me, maybe its just the people playing them i dunno

[Mycavycos]

So another tank in DPS gear pulls aggro off you in TANK gear. You don't say?

 

 

Exactly my thought...

 

Edit : Tell your assasin buddy to switch from dark charge to something else. If he has to offtank for some reason he can switch to dark charge.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Mycavycos

[glenbruton]

I see your points about the gear that my friend had and it seems logical that he was taking threat. There are however 3 parts were I want to focus:

 

1. I should at some point be able to "take" aggro from him since he had (DPS gear, in tanking stance). I'm not saying always just some times would suffice. There were moments when we stopped dpsing and mobs still were attached...

.

 

 

Your friend is bad. Not your fault.

[Valkyyri]

Definately think we need a DPS boost, or an increase to our aggro from IGC.

 

Best bet would be increase threat gained from abilities instead raw damage, because when you give a class dps increase it tends to cause alot pvp whine.

[iSkynet]

Best bet would be increase threat gained from abilities instead raw damage, because when you give a class dps increase it tends to cause alot pvp whine.

 

This is what I'm talking about. At least give my "fiery blast" some boost in threat generation. IMO it should also be boosted in dmg slightly but I can live with it as it is.