Patch 1.2 will remove the Force Bending double benefit

[djdee]

Hi,

 

this weeks Q&A reveals Georg Zöller saying that the "exploit" involving Force Bending in combination with an ability queue time of 1.0 will be removed in patch 1.2

 

Finally, the perception of a specific class being not desirable can also be affected by the desirability of other classes. For example, Sage/Inquisitor healers are currently able to exceed our intended healing performance at times by affecting multiple heals with the same Conveyance/Force Bending buff. Game Update 1.2 will remove the ability to do so.

 

source: Community Q&A: Feb 17th 2012

 

My own view on this is that I would call it borderline exploit since you still pay twice the force cost for example to get two Dark Infusions at 1.3s each and with some of the burst damage coming in in hard modes at times it appears as if it is actually needed.

 

Now, I know this may be because our teams don't have the mechanics down 100% perfect and then there's also the posts saying NMM is too easy and I start to wonder could that be a large part of it. I am slightly worried with the surge nerf and now this coming about that I may have problems keeping up in dire situations.

 

If you play a fully healing specced sorc and even any other healing class what's your view on it?

 

Discuss.

Edited February 19, 2012 by djdee

[Tenacity]

Some other talent/ability interactions have the same bug (lightning barrage with force lightning, for example) and those should be fixed as well.

 

I'd rather keep my 1.0 queue ability than have them remove that in order to fix the issue, so I'm fine with it. People will adapt.

[verfallen]

Not at hard mode yet, but it is an unfair advantages over the other healing class. Its a single use proc, and its up to the player to manage it. We still get it once every 4 seconds. So yes, in my eyes, its an exploit I don't personnaly use.

 

Sorcs as far as healing go already have many advantages over other classes, mainly their healing pool and AoE healing.

 

Also my understanding is if you have to work for it healing hardmodes, its quite normal, as they are meant to be challenging. The tank should have mitigating ready for them to help the healer handle the burst. It is teamwork after all.

[Relith]

I tend to really only use the double dip off force bending (usually combined with recklessness) to emergency heal some foolish dps who has pulled aggro. If you have looked at how aggro mechanics in this game work, you know that a range dps (generally low defensive abilities to begin with) pulling aggro takes a long time for the tank to permanently reacquire the mobs attention (as in, after the 6 second guaranteed aggro wears off from taunt). A simple heal does not do the job, it is an uphill battle where you will be losing ground. The double dip force bending/recklessness combo allows me to get in front of this problem and head it off with something like 12-13k healing in a short period (and even more with shielding). Hopefully in this time the monster dies, the tank taunts, and the dps detaunts.

 

Only other time I do this is when people screw up and don't get out of the way of exploding mobs or some such moment of retardation.

 

 

It definitely makes us overpowered compared to the other healing classes. It definitely will be a game changer when it comes out. The range DPS will need to learn to play and control their aggro. So far, me being able to do this has been benefitial to myself in stopping a group wipe, but perhaps a disservice to my common groupmates because they seem relucatant to learn the lesson. However, I do believe that we will be fine without it, people just need to be more cautious. And in pvp....it was ridiculously overpowered, just need to accept that one. I for one welcome the change as being healthy for the overall game.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Relith

[Daellia]

It's an unintended mechanic. Regardless of any other considerations, that needs to be fixed, and preferably sooner rather than later when the entire class has come to depend on it. It seems extremely likely that they'll fix the double-dip on Lightning Barrage at the same time too.

[verfallen]

I tend to really only use the double dip off force bending (usually combined with recklessness) to emergency heal some foolish dps who has pulled aggro. If you have looked at how aggro mechanics in this game work, you know that a range dps (generally low defensive abilities to begin with) pulling aggro takes a long time for the tank to permanently reacquire the mobs attention (as in, after the 6 second guaranteed aggro wears off from taunt). A simple heal does not do the job, it is an uphill battle where you will be losing ground. The double dip force bending/recklessness combo allows me to get in front of this problem and head it off with something like 12-13k healing in a short period (and even more with shielding). Hopefully in this time the monster dies, the tank taunts, and the dps detaunts.

 

I'll refer back to my previous post last paragraph.

 

If a DPS mess up to the point the tank has issues getting back the threat, regardless of the high threat generating moves and the threat lowering every DPS class get, then its call a massive mess up. If you some makes a major f*** up, then getting a failure makes sense.

 

While good healer and tank are always sought after, good DPS are also valued for a reason. Someone who can control their damage output and be smart about targeting rather than brainlessly get damage in whatever is moving.

 

If healer is a superman that can save anyone no matter what they do, you kinda devalorize the other roles, and I wouldn't be for that.

 

You got extraction to lower their threat once if they are too dumb to do it themselves. Hopefully they get the hint there.

 

If they don't they tell them they better have medpacks.

Edited February 20, 2012 by verfallen

[Daellia]

If a DPS mess up to the point the tank has issues getting back the threat, regardless of the high threat generating moves and the threat lowering every DPS class get, then its call a massive mess up. If you some makes a major f*** up, then getting a failure makes sense.

 

Just for the record, the only class that has a threat dump that actually functions is Sith Warriors (and their mirror the Jedi Knight). All 3 other classes (and their mirrors) have improperly coded threat dumps that drop 0.25% of their threat rather than 25%. Intercede, Extrication, and the SW/JK class threat dumps are the only ones that actually work properly.

[Orikx]

I admit to using it quiet a bit in PvP. Generally not to heal myself because if I'm getting focused I don't have time to cast 2 x 1.5 sec infusions. I cast one move and then get a second ready while moving and stop long enough to cast another. So it will effect my team mates much more then it will me. Probably lose some to focus fire that I would have been able to keep up before.

 

I knew it would eventually get fixed and knew I would have to adapt once it does so I'm not hurt by it.

 

PvE there are very few times where I have had to use it. So it shouldn't hurt me much if at all there.

[jonnybigboy]

I successfully stopped using it about a week ago fearing that this was coming. I used it constantly before that. However, I still find myself reaching for it during the big "oh ****" moments. I need to work harder to stop myself so I'm not completely shocked when its actually gone.

[verfallen]

Just for the record, the only class that has a threat dump that actually functions is Sith Warriors (and their mirror the Jedi Knight). All 3 other classes (and their mirrors) have improperly coded threat dumps that drop 0.25% of their threat rather than 25%. Intercede, Extrication, and the SW/JK class threat dumps are the only ones that actually work properly.

 

Sorc also seems to work at least. I haven't tested the BH one since mine is a PT (tank with threat lowering...yeh small issue )

 

It doesn't change that even with those move, if a DPS took the threat to a point the tank cannot overcome that threat in taunt 6 sec, or that the sorc extrication is already used, or intercede, you have a massive issue in the fact your DPS need a stop button when he realize he's about to overcome the tank.

 

 

 

Simply put : the argument without this I cannot heal wipe worthy mistakes is invalid.

Edited February 20, 2012 by verfallen

[Daellia]

Sorc also seems to work at least. I haven't tested the BH one since mine is a PT (tank with threat lowering...yeh small issue )

 

It doesn't. I've tested it time and time again, Cloud Mind is completely broken. The game files verify this. Extrication, Intercede, and Feint (Sith Warrior dump) have a ModifyThreat->AmountPercent of -25 (minus 25% threat). Cloud Mind, Chafe Flare, and Countermeasures (the SI, BH, and IA dumps, respectively) have a ModifyThreat->AmountPercent of -0.25.

 

You can further test this by getting naked with a patient tank friend, having them go beat on one of the low-level world bosses (the Kaas one works well) for a while, then they stop and you beat on it (in melee range) for a while until you just pull threat. When this happens, stop damaging it immediately and cast Cloud Mind.

 

Now, based on the threat mechanics in this game, you pull melee threat at 110% of the tank's threat. He would then need 110% of your threat to pull it back. If Cloud Mind worked properly, you would lose 25% of your threat, putting you at 110% * 0.75 = 82.5% of his threat, or him at 121.2% of yours, immediately pulling threat back off you. However, this isn't how it actually works, the target will continue to attack you until he generates a fairly substantial amount of extra threat on the target, or taunts it.

 

I'll admit I've not tested this within the last month, but seeing as the game files still haven't changed for the abilities, and I've seen no rigorous reports of an actual change in behavior, I feel justified in concluding that the abilities are still completely broken.

[verfallen]

It doesn't. I've tested it time and time again, Cloud Mind is completely broken. The game files verify this. Extrication, Intercede, and Feint (Sith Warrior dump) have a ModifyThreat->AmountPercent of -25 (minus 25% threat). Cloud Mind, Chafe Flare, and Countermeasures (the SI, BH, and IA dumps, respectively) have a ModifyThreat->AmountPercent of -0.25.

 

You can further test this by getting naked with a patient tank friend, having them go beat on one of the low-level world bosses (the Kaas one works well) for a while, then they stop and you beat on it (in melee range) for a while until you just pull threat. When this happens, stop damaging it immediately and cast Cloud Mind.

 

Now, based on the threat mechanics in this game, you pull melee threat at 110% of the tank's threat. He would then need 110% of your threat to pull it back. If Cloud Mind worked properly, you would lose 25% of your threat, putting you at 110% * 0.75 = 82.5% of his threat, or him at 121.2% of yours, immediately pulling threat back off you. However, this isn't how it actually works, the target will continue to attack you until he generates a fairly substantial amount of extra threat on the target, or taunts it.

 

I'll admit I've not tested this within the last month, but seeing as the game files still haven't changed for the abilities, and I've seen no rigorous reports of an actual change in behavior, I feel justified in concluding that the abilities are still completely broken.

 

 

Might be on PvE, but with Ashara as active companion (therefore not a tank) when a single elite turned on me, kicking in cloud mind made an immediate difference.

[KelbornX]

It's an unintended mechanic. Regardless of any other considerations, that needs to be fixed, and preferably sooner rather than later when the entire class has come to depend on it. It seems extremely likely that they'll fix the double-dip on Lightning Barrage at the same time too.

 

Agree 110%. I admit I've gotten a little too used to using it in emergency situations (especially PvP). Personally I think this should have been fixed a while ago before it (and Lightning Barrage) began being exploited.

 

Most of the time though I use Innervate with Force Bending for Force Surge procs.

[Daellia]

Might be on PvE, but with Ashara as active companion (therefore not a tank) when a single elite turned on me, kicking in cloud mind made an immediate difference.

 

I'll go retest it when I find some time this week, then.

[djdee]

Thanks for the input guys. I'll be healing through a few hard modes as if the fix had already happened and see how that goes.

 

Edit: Yeah I can also confirm that cloud mind worked for me, but sometimes its hit or miss.

For example when I was soloing champion mobs on Hoth with Ashara and Revel I had to let the comp build up damage and then use cloud mind. I'd say roughly 7 out of 10 times it would work.

Edited February 22, 2012 by djdee

[Daellia]

I tested it last night under rather rigorous conditions. I had my tank friend summon and attack the Tattoine world boss until he had generated solid amount of threat (about 2 minutes of full threat rotation), then stop attacking entirely. I then cast Force Lightning in melee range until I just pulled threat, interrupting as soon as he pulled to me. That should put me just over 110% of the tank's threat. If Cloud Mind worked as expected, it should immediately drop threat back to the tank on use, as it would leave the tank at ~121% of my threat. It didn't any of the 3 times we repeated the test. Unless someone can give me a reproduceable experiment that demonstrates it actually dropping threat (without any outside variables like the tank continuing to deal damage and such), I am forced to conclude that Cloud Mind works as I have previously stated and does not reduce threat by the intended 25%. Edited February 22, 2012 by Daellia

[Ayestes]

Thank you for doing this for us Daellia.

[Bryntone]

I tested it last night under rather rigorous conditions. I had my tank friend summon and attack the Tattoine world boss until he had generated solid amount of threat (about 2 minutes of full threat rotation), then stop attacking entirely. I then cast Force Lightning in melee range until I just pulled threat, interrupting as soon as he pulled to me. That should put me just over 110% of the tank's threat. If Cloud Mind worked as expected, it should immediately drop threat back to the tank on use, as it would leave the tank at ~121% of my threat. It didn't any of the 3 times we repeated the test. Unless someone can give me a reproduceable experiment that demonstrates it actually dropping threat (without any outside variables like the tank continuing to deal damage and such), I am forced to conclude that Cloud Mind works as I have previously stated and does not reduce threat by the intended 25%.

 

The problem I see with the way your performing this test vs. how the Ashara test was done. the tank stopped attacking vs ashara continued attacking. When the tank stops attacking he should naturally start losing threat as your gaining threat. With that when you use cloud mind, the tanks threat is going to be lower then what you expect it to be. which would explain why cloud mind isn't working the way you expect it. Try having the tank continue attacking at a lower rate so he doesn't lose the threat he's built up.

[Scrubtastic]

This is going to make ops in NM so much harder. Some of the bosses are so healing intensive even with Columi and Rakata pieces. If they nerf this then they're going to have to nerf a lot of the dmg output in NM ops. Hell Soa balls do 20k dmg to me in NM.

[Daellia]

The problem I see with the way your performing this test vs. how the Ashara test was done. the tank stopped attacking vs ashara continued attacking. When the tank stops attacking he should naturally start losing threat as your gaining threat. With that when you use cloud mind, the tanks threat is going to be lower then what you expect it to be. which would explain why cloud mind isn't working the way you expect it. Try having the tank continue attacking at a lower rate so he doesn't lose the threat he's built up.

 

Threat doesn't decay. The issue with having the tank continue to attack is that you can't actually eliminate the possibility that the tank pulled off you simply by over-threating you. Beyond that, I'm really not certain that companion threat mechanics work the same way as they do for players.

[djdee]

This is going to make ops in NM so much harder. Some of the bosses are so healing intensive even with Columi and Rakata pieces. If they nerf this then they're going to have to nerf a lot of the dmg output in NM ops. Hell Soa balls do 20k dmg to me in NM.

 

Well, I have now done every HM except Directive 7 while specifically not using the "exploit" and we were fine. Well, ok, maybe our sniper that just has to pull aggro all the time while the tank's taunt is on cooldown died once or twice more

 

For the record, I'm 31/8/2 in full Columi Force-Mystic + 2 Rakata from Synth where 1 has an augment slot.

[Onager]

Force Bending/Conveyance fix = Bring a merc/commando instead of having two sorcs/sages. Edited February 25, 2012 by Onager