RP Etiquette or How to Play Well with Others

[Rojahar]

Play your own character -- not someone else's -- and treat people the way you want them to treat you.

 

I wish this rule could universally work, but I think a problem is that, for example, if someone views their actions as enforcing proper RP and protecting the sanctity of an IP, they'd have no problems with someone else doing the same to them (but then they RP "correctly" anyway, so non-issue, in their view). What's perceived as respectful by one person, may be perceived as disrespectful by another, and thus the he-said-she-said of who's behavior is ultimately right/wrong. There will never be a 100% universal consensus.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Rojahar

[TheGreatNeechi]

I wish this rule could universally work, but I think a problem is that, for example, if someone views their actions as enforcing proper RP and protecting the sanctity of an IP, they'd have no problems with someone else doing the same to them (but then they RP "correctly" anyway, so non-issue, in their view). What's perceived as respectful by one person, may be perceived as disrespectful by another, and thus the he-said-she-said of who's behavior is ultimately right/wrong. There will never be a 100% universal consensus.

 

I find the players who "enforce" proper RP are the very same ones who take the greatest issue being critiqued themselves.

 

It's just never a good idea to approach another player in that way.

Edited February 22, 2012 by TheGreatNeechi

[DuchessOfKvetch]

This is a strategy I learned from the great GL.

 

Gary Larson?

[Sendra]

Play your own character -- not someone else's -- and treat people the way you want them to treat you.

 

Sadly, even that isn't sufficient. But it's probably about as good as you can get - definitely better than most.

 

Looking at the thread title again, I am reminded the topic is "RP Etiquette" not "How to RP". This thread seems to be targeted more toward veteran RPers who find themselves sharing an RP world with other veterans of different styles and with newcomers.

 

But it's still way too easy for someone to call "foul" because they were not treated the way they want to be - even if it was not inconsiderate, and was perfectly in accord with the what the other person expects and appreciates for himself. What I'm saying is, if we always let the more sensitive, injured party - the one who cries most pitifully, loudest, and longest - declare the verdict, we will still have OOC drama. Along with "treat people the way you want them to treat you" there needs to be acceptance that even there we have fundamental differences. Remember that in spite of these differences, the player behind the other character is still a person, and probably not the horrible monster you would like to believe them to be.

 

I don't mean my comments above to be a criticism of Slaine or disagreement with his main points in this thread.

 

It's always good to have a reminder that we are all just people playing a game and trying to have fun. Cheers, salute, huzzah, etc. to Slaine for reminding us.

 

Edited February 22, 2012 by Sendra

[tehjai]

I find the players who "enforce" proper RP are the very same ones who take the greatest issue being critiqued themselves.

 

It's just never a good idea to approach another player in that way.

 

Unsolicited critique is a no-no, but if someone asks, we shouldn't feel like we have to hide under a blast-shield of "nice" and avoid addressing the issues we have. I can elaborate on what this means if you like; I'm just not entirely sure it's on-topic at the moment.

 

Too, in my experience the ones who want to "enforce" proper RP are usually the ones who'll let you rip their concept a new bodily orifice -- and will then make changes based on what you suggest.

 

Spoiler'd anecdata that doesn't relate to TOR at all below:

 

 

I used to be an avid reader of Warcraft Sues, and from that community, I created a character concept critique community. Almost all of the people who'd post "bad" RP brought their concepts into the critique board and people have been firm, direct, but not unkind about any issues they saw.

 

These posters were the people in WoW who wanted to enforce proper RP; they thought their poop didn't stink (and some of them were, admittedly, way too high-handed with their RP for even my tastes) and yet they still offered themselves up for critique and took it gracefully.

 

 

 

But I guess this all depends on the company you keep and the type of community you're playing in.

[kwalish]

Darth_Slain is expressing exactly how I feel, and I'd like to thank you for that.

I took the freedom of translating your thread (into german) and post it on our server forum.

 

Also, I'm amazed that this thread stayed mostly civil for 6 pages now. Impressive. It restores my faith in this group of weirdos, these RPers, I feel so attached to

Edited February 23, 2012 by kwalish

[TheGreatNeechi]

Unsolicited critique is a no-no, but if someone asks, we shouldn't feel like we have to hide under a blast-shield of "nice" and avoid addressing the issues we have. I can elaborate on what this means if you like; I'm just not entirely sure it's on-topic at the moment.

 

Oh, absolutely. My schtick is elitism. I hate it. I'm always the one RPing with the newbies, the inexperienced writers, and I have an almost pathological adherence to the axiom of St. Francis of Assisi: "Preach the gospel [of awesome RP] at all times and when necessary use words."

 

I learn by example. I lead by example.

 

When I see, "That's not canon it's fail!" I become thoroughly enraged. One of the joys of RPing in a setting one knows next to nothing about is the very real feeling of uncharted discovery.

 

Not everything needs to be canon. Not everything needs to fit just right. It is OK to write new material and push the envelope, and yes it is OK to stumble around blissfully ignorant of the universe we share.

 

Please forgive me if I sound like an absolutist. I'm really not. I have a soft spot for RP, and seeing people justify cruelty or just plain meanness with it couldn't make me angrier if you'd stuck a white hot firebrand squarely up my tail pipe.

 

I agree with you. =)

[Guildrum]

I have a question then. Where is the boundary between, warning someone/informing them of something, and critiquing them then? For example, if I run into a Bounty Hunter on Nar Shadaa claiming to have won the Great Hunt, should I then not say, "Well, you really cannot be..." out of character?

 

Do I then just put up with it until he asks, "Well how's my RP?", or do I tell him, "Hey buddy, because this is an MMO, you really cannot play a canon position like Champion of the Great Hunt, especially one that only one person can occupy like that. If I were you, I'd try to figure out a new background for this guy." and then let him take it or leave it?

[Rhaethe]

I have a question then. Where is the boundary between, warning someone/informing them of something, and critiquing them then? For example, if I run into a Bounty Hunter on Nar Shadaa claiming to have won the Great Hunt, should I then not say, "Well, you really cannot be..." out of character?

 

Do I then just put up with it until he asks, "Well how's my RP?", or do I tell him, "Hey buddy, because this is an MMO, you really cannot play a canon position like Champion of the Great Hunt, especially one that only one person can occupy like that. If I were you, I'd try to figure out a new background for this guy." and then let him take it or leave it?

 

 

In your example I would do one of a couple things. First, see if the guy is just introducing himself as that or just mentioning it passing casual conversation and then making no big deal of it or if he's actually trying to do something to you because of it. If the very last, then that is when a clear OOC chat should take place between the two of you on recognizing that title or not.

 

If it was either of the other two then I'd listen politely, maybe ask "Oh, what year?" and smile and nod my head. Smile and nod smile and nod. That is how my characters often treat Those Who Say Crazy Things that aren't trying to actually gain something over my own character with it. Depending on the attitude of the person Saying Crazy Things, I "might" drop "Huh ... I thought blahblahblah" into our conversation if my character actually has knowledge of that sort of thing. If not, then my character would take what they are saying at face value.

 

So there is no hard line in the sand I don't think. It is situational. And as long as you treat the person with common courtesy ... yer good.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Rhaethe

[Guildrum]

In your example I would do one of a couple things. First, see if the guy is just introducing himself as that or just mentioning it passing casual conversation and then making no big deal of it or if he's actually trying to do something to you because of it. If the very last, then that is when a clear OOC chat should take place between the two of you on recognizing that title or not.

 

If it was either of the other two then I'd listen politely, maybe ask "Oh, what year?" and smile and nod my head. Smile and nod smile and nod. That is how my characters often treat Those Who Say Crazy Things that aren't trying to actually gain something over my own character with it. Depending on the attitude of the person Saying Crazy Things, I "might" drop "Huh ... I thought blahblahblah" into our conversation if my character actually has knowledge of that sort of thing. If not, then my character would take what they are saying at face value.

 

So there is no hard line in the sand I don't think. It is situational. And as long as you treat the person with common courtesy ... yer good.

 

And then say he doesn't quite get the point because I am beating around the bush, and actually accepting it IC, shouldn't I tell him OOC that it would be a better idea for him to come up with a different background?

[Rhaethe]

And then say he doesn't quite get the point because I am beating around the bush, and actually accepting it IC, shouldn't I tell him OOC that it would be a better idea for him to come up with a different background?

 

 

I am not the kind of person that tells another (unless I know them really well and we have that kind of relationship) what they should or should not do. So I cannot really answer your question. I can tell you what I would do. And you can make yer decision from there.

 

As long as people don't attempt to influence or do things to my character because of what I think of as Crazy Talk, then they can Crazy Talk all they like. I don't have to RP with them if it bothers me that much, and I'll walk away. If the person is genuinely curious OOC why I seem to not want to RP with them and they approach me OOC about it, I will be courteous and honest and say that their background claims simply cannot fit in my world lore. If the dialogue than happens in which they ask for guidance, cool. If not, cool.

 

That's what I do. Others' mileage will vary.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Rhaethe

[DuchessOfKvetch]

Oh, absolutely. My schtick is elitism. I hate it. I'm always the one RPing with the newbies, the inexperienced writers, and I have an almost pathological adherence to the axiom of St. Francis of Assisi: "Preach the gospel [of awesome RP] at all times and when necessary use words."

 

I learn by example. I lead by example.

 

When I see, "That's not canon it's fail!" I become thoroughly enraged. One of the joys of RPing in a setting one knows next to nothing about is the very real feeling of uncharted discovery.

 

Not everything needs to be canon. Not everything needs to fit just right. It is OK to write new material and push the envelope, and yes it is OK to stumble around blissfully ignorant of the universe we share.

 

Please forgive me if I sound like an absolutist. I'm really not. I have a soft spot for RP, and seeing people justify cruelty or just plain meanness with it couldn't make me angrier if you'd stuck a white hot firebrand squarely up my tail pipe.

 

I agree with you. =)

 

I really love what you are saying here, Neechi.

 

Rpers, especially new/shy ones, can be VERY defensive. Telling people they're doing things wrong, without them asking for your advice beforehand, can definitely result in a lot of hard feelings and anger.

 

There are ways to be polite about it, sure. But often the best way to handle things is to try to respond ICly, and lead by example, as you say.

 

Most of the time we're dealing with just minor issues like someone meta-gaming another's name or job, and those issues can be handled very gracefully.

[tehjai]

I have a question then. Where is the boundary between, warning someone/informing them of something, and critiquing them then? For example, if I run into a Bounty Hunter on Nar Shadaa claiming to have won the Great Hunt, should I then not say, "Well, you really cannot be..." out of character?

 

Do I then just put up with it until he asks, "Well how's my RP?", or do I tell him, "Hey buddy, because this is an MMO, you really cannot play a canon position like Champion of the Great Hunt, especially one that only one person can occupy like that. If I were you, I'd try to figure out a new background for this guy." and then let him take it or leave it?

 

 

The answer to the question is presentation. If you wish, you are totally within your rights to say OOCly "You do know that according to class story, every Bounty Hunter's won the Great Hunt, right?" That's a statement of an informative nature.

 

Critiquing them would be saying something like what you say in your second paragraph; in that you're saying what is wrong with their character concept. In lieu of saying "try to figure out a new background", though, you should be offering a concrete solution, like "well, maybe this guy could have just won a top-end contest or something that isn't the Great Hunt by name." (Tangentially, that's how I play my Bounty Hunter)

 

But in the end, if you're playing against a far-fetched idea that doesn't mesh well with what you think is proper, and if that person isn't soliciting critique, the best thing to do is to ICly excuse yourself from the scene and move on.

 

You don't have to "put up with it" until asked at all. A lot of people won't ask; often people get very defensive about their RP concepts.

 

The point of my statement was not that we should go about critiquing everyone we see. It was that when people ask for pointers/critique, those of us who can give it shouldn't feel like we have to tell half-truths or make issues seem less important than they are just because we might hurt someone's feelings. If you're asking for critique, remember that critique isn't about your feelings.

 

 

Oh, absolutely. My schtick is elitism. I hate it. I'm always the one RPing with the newbies, the inexperienced writers, and I have an almost pathological adherence to the axiom of St. Francis of Assisi: "Preach the gospel [of awesome RP] at all times and when necessary use words."

 

I learn by example. I lead by example.

 

And in the end, if we have ideas about what RP ought to be like, this is really the best way to go about it in the end. A character can change for the better; I think giving a new RPer the benefit of the doubt and an implicit "it's okay to change things" vibe will lead to better things than going "omg you're wrong!"

 

I consider myself an "elitist" if that is defined as "wanting to play things that make sense in SWTOR"; but as long as the case is made to me either ICly or OOCly, I'll pretty much roll with anything.

Edited February 24, 2012 by tehjai

[Darth_Slaine]

I have a question then. Where is the boundary between, warning someone/informing them of something, and critiquing them then? For example, if I run into a Bounty Hunter on Nar Shadaa claiming to have won the Great Hunt, should I then not say, "Well, you really cannot be..." out of character?

 

Do I then just put up with it until he asks, "Well how's my RP?", or do I tell him, "Hey buddy, because this is an MMO, you really cannot play a canon position like Champion of the Great Hunt, especially one that only one person can occupy like that. If I were you, I'd try to figure out a new background for this guy." and then let him take it or leave it?

 

This is a good and complicated question. The reason that it is difficult to answer absolutely is that we need to understand better how this would impact your RP. Everyone else has said many good things so I will focus a little on trying to establish a context for this situation.

 

First, the claim by a max level BH that he/she is the Champion of the Great Hunt is not inherently problematic. Many players will ignore the quest chains as not being in line with IC reality while some people will pick and choose bits of the chain to keep. Just because most people do not use what they have earned in game does not mean no one can - a convention is not a rule. Beyond this I will not spend time on whether it is "right" to RP as the Champion of the Great Hunt as that is irrelevant to your question.

 

Now, you have two possible responses to someone's RP: accept it or refuse it. Let's look next at how you could justify accepting the RP.

 

If it is a legitimate RP move to ignore the character story-chain and other mechanics, then we already have a foundation that places personal storybuilding over game-enforced storybuilding. If we can ignore that all BHs tend to become Champions of the Great Hunt because that is only important to the storyline, it is then possible to expand the nature of the great Hunt itself beyond what is described int he storyline. In the universe of your IC, which is already not 100% the same as the game universe, there can be many great hunts -- one every year or regional hunts across the galaxy. The same RP strategy that encourages us to ignore our own Champion of the Great Hunt title allows us to inhabit an IC universe where multiple hunts exist. Meeting a Champion would then be like meeting an olympic gold medalist - rare but not entirely out of the question.

 

We must also exlore why we do not want to accept the claim of Champion on this particular RP instance. Do we intend to allow someone else to RP as Champion in our IC storyline at some later date? If so, just contact the player OOC and say, "My friend is RPing as Champion of the Great Hunt in my Storyline, so I will treat you as X" and negotiate from there. If you don't want to acknowledge the Champion title because you feel the player will try to exert power over your character, you can always explain to the player that you recognize the title but not any authority with it.

 

If we go strictly by canon, we know that the Great Hunt exists and someone must be a Champion of it -- why not this guy? If you are not expecting to have someone else fill the Champion role in your storyline then there is no real problem with this random fellow being Champion of the Hunt in your IC universe. Accepting him as Champion does not mean you need to accept everyone else as Champion -- as we said, most people do not play their class story IC.

 

The title Jedi Master is granted by the same mechanic as Champion of the Great Hunt but people will tend to accept the former and reject the latter. The explanation for this is usually that there are more than one Jedi master in canon. If we use this numbers logic though it means there is still an open slot for someone to RP Champion in the life of your character and that you should only accept a certain number of Jedi masters in your RP as they are rare -- I guess you could do this on a first-comefirst-serve basis.

 

Setting aside convention for a moment, and ignoring the whole "it's bad RP" feeling, how does accepting a character as Champion of the Great Hunt impact your RP with them? If the answer is not at all or positively, then accept it. If the answer is negatively, refuse it. The important thing is the integrity of your IC universe -- not the game setting and not the IC universe of every player on the server. We are all playing the same game but we are all building individual stories. Sometimes characters overlap but most of the time they don't -- servers are big places.

 

But let us say you don't want to accept this fellow as the Champion of the Great Hunt for whatever reason -- and it is your right to refuse -- how do we accomplish this? There is the whole "RP like he is crazy angle" which is valid but can lead to drama if not done subtly. The easiest thing to do is to treat the character as a Champion of a Great Hunt -- show respect but keep your options open. This usually works out because the person RPing is not likely to keep pointing out that he is the sole, unique and only Champion of the one true Great Hunt. He can RP the scene feeling he is the only champion and you can RP it feeling he is a regional champion or last year's champion -- no OOC arrangement necessary and the integrity of both your character arcs remains intact.

 

I wouldn't try to explain why he can't be the Champion of the Great Hunt because he could be. If there is a Hunt then there is a Champion and we can't prove he isn't any more than we can prove he is. I'd also be slow to pull out the "Most RPers do this and ignore that" card unless he asks directly why your character is not treating him in the way he expects -- which shouldn't be an issue if you treat him as a regional champ.

 

So what you want to do is ask yourself these questions:

1. Is the a Champion of the Great Hunt in my character's IC universe?
   
2. Do I want this fellow to be that champion?
   

 

If the answer to both is yes, then RP away. If the answer to either is no then show them as much IC respect as you can without breaking the integrity of your own storyline. If there seems to be confusion between the two parties, explain OOC that you cannot accept him as the only Champion and would like to make a compromise. If no compromise can be arranged and you don't feel comfortable for the RP, thank him for his time and interest and politely decline continuing.

 

At no point in this interaction has the need come up to critique/advise. To return to your main point, there is rarely a reason to critique someone else's RP. If someone asks you, as you said, how you liked it -- give your opinion. Otherwise, lead by example. Give advice when asked for it and focus your criticism on your own RP.

 

The most likely circumstance for someone asking directly for your advice/critique is the the dreaded Why don't you want to RP with me? At this point you tell them why their RP concept or style does not fit with your particular IC story. Don't appeal to nonexistent rules of correct IC behavior - just say that it wouldn't fit with your own character concept and style of play.... because that is the truth.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Darth_Slaine

[Sendra]

I have a question then. Where is the boundary between, warning someone/informing them of something, and critiquing them then? For example, if I run into a Bounty Hunter on Nar Shadaa claiming to have won the Great Hunt, should I then not say, "Well, you really cannot be..." out of character?

 

Do I then just put up with it until he asks, "Well how's my RP?", or do I tell him, "Hey buddy, because this is an MMO, you really cannot play a canon position like Champion of the Great Hunt, especially one that only one person can occupy like that. If I were you, I'd try to figure out a new background for this guy." and then let him take it or leave it?

 

A lot of times in situations like this, RPers metagame just as badly as newbs.

 

You run into a guy who says in RP (not his title over his head, but says so in RP) that he won The Great Hunt.

 

How is your character so sure he didn't? Sure, you the player know that he didn't - but is your character really that much of an expert? In the Bounty Hunter storyline even Mako doesn't know everything about The Great Hunt. She does know the names of the winners - but she's a fanatical groupie who has studied The Great Hunt with single-minded determination.

 

By the way, similarly, I do not RP my non-Jedi characters as being very knowledgeable about Jedi. I don't RP most of my characters as being knowledgeable about "canon". It doesn't make sense for all of our characters to be experts on everything in the world.

 

In my opinion there is no reason to ever have a "canon argument" in character. And no reason to harass someone about canon OOC.

 

In character, your character might or might not believe someone's out-of-canon claims. Your character might be skeptical, if it doesn't make sense (from your IC perspective). Or your character might simply not care. "Big deal, so you won The Great Hunt. The line for the restroom still forms back there. Go to the back of the line."

 

I can even see quite a bit of shared fun in humoring someone a bit (OOC), and having your character accept the other guy's story at face value, with subtle hints that their story is unlikely and they might want to rethink it.

[Sendra]

We are all playing the same game but we are all building individual stories. Sometimes characters overlap but most of the time they don't -- servers are big places.

 

There is much goodness and wisdom in your post, but this point I fundamentally disagree with.

 

Servers are not such big places. Eventually, a few months from now, every RPer will know (or know someone who knows) every other RPer, except for those who RP only in guild or other closed circles.

 

And in my opinion, we are all together co-creating a shared world. This is why I have a pretty strong personal dislike of anyone claiming any known location in the world as their own, and why I dislike people setting themselves up as some kind of muckedy-muck in a canonical organization. And why I dislike it when someone claims to change the larger shared world, affecting our future shared history.

 

It's fun when someone RP's as the "exiled [something]", the "rightful [something]", the "presumptive [something]" - all of which set themselves up as someone who believes he is or should be whatever he claims to be, and possibly even has followers, but who isn't really that. He attracts a cult following, but has no real power. Yet. He's working on that. He will spend his entire RP life working on that - but will never achieve it. That's fun stuff.

[Darth_Slaine]

There is much goodness and wisdom in your post, but this point I fundamentally disagree with.

 

Servers are not such big places. Eventually, a few months from now, every RPer will know (or know someone who knows) every other RPer, except for those who RP only in guild or other closed circles.

 

And in my opinion, we are all together co-creating a shared world. This is why I have a pretty strong personal dislike of anyone claiming any known location in the world as their own, and why I dislike people setting themselves up as some kind of muckedy-muck in a canonical organization. And why I dislike it when someone claims to change the larger shared world, affecting our future shared history.

 

It's fun when someone RP's as the "exiled [something]", the "rightful [something]", the "presumptive [something]" - all of which set themselves up as someone who believes he is or should be whatever he claims to be, and possibly even has followers, but who isn't really that. He attracts a cult following, but has no real power. Yet. He's working on that. He will spend his entire RP life working on that - but will never achieve it. That's fun stuff.

 

I agree with the spirit of your post completely. We are creating shared stories that become server stories. I probably should have qualified my statement originally...

 

Eventually, a few months from now, every RPer will know (or know someone who knows) every other RPer, except for those who RP only in guild or other closed circles

 

That will be true on some servers while my statement that we won't overlap with everyone will be true on other servers. In my own experience, as actively as I have RPed or been a part of the community I have never been able to help build a server that connected all RPers even superficially. Moon Guard in WoW was an example of this -- there were just too many players to ever meet -- or even "friend-of-a-friend" -- all the RPers.

 

 

Server canon is something else I guess we could talk about, but I agree that what we want are connected servers.... but for some servers this will always be a goal we are moving towards rather than something we have achieved.

 

That's my own experience, anyway.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Darth_Slaine