Cover should NOT block LOS for charge

[Xaearth]

Oh of course the forum and game is filled with bad players.

 

You mean like the multitude of snipers/gunslingers posting in this thread that have no clue how cover works and can't possibly imagine how warriors/knights being able to charge to them while in cover might actually be good for the game, as well as the snipers/gunslingers themselves?

 

Hint: Charge has an immobilize built in...

[Anatlos]

You mean like the multitude of snipers/gunslingers posting in this thread that have no clue how cover works and can't possibly imagine how warriors/knights being able to charge to them while in cover might actually be good for the game, as well as the snipers/gunslingers themselves?

 

Hint: Charge has an immobilize built in...

 

Do you play a sniper...? It sounds kinda like you do to me?

 

O.o that would mean a SNIPER is on my side for this

[KraithFjorn]

What kinda utility do you guys lack? You have 0 stuns, no way of knocking anyone back, can't immobilize anyone or use a mass CC can you?

 

Well, for starters, we can't leap towards other players. We can't leap to other teammates either.

 

Leg shot breaks on damage, as does Flashbang grenade. Debilitate is our only useful stun for use in combat, and that's CQB exclusive. Ambush's knockback is exclusive to marksmanship, which these days are a minority of snipers.

 

What do warriors get? Well, certainly not as much as Sages/Sorcs, but you've still got plenty. Force Choke, Intercede, Force Camouflauge, and Chilling Scream would be fairly nice to have, and as snipers, we don't get anything remotely similar. Juggernauts get Force Push (we have to spec to get our knockback), Intimidating roar is your Flashbang equivalent, Backhand is your debilitate equivalent and Marauder's Crippling Slash is a lot more effective than Leg Shot.

 

Is your CC/Utility excessive? No, but it's definitely more varied and more effective than a snipers'.

[vectorsky]

I'm honestly baffled as to why you're concerned about getting rooted or shot by a sniper that's facing away from you? If you're behind them, and they're in cover you are out of their line of sight, they can't snare you, they can't stun you, they can't do anything but knock you back when you get close. Just walk up and smash them. Edited February 16, 2012 by vectorsky

[Anatlos]

Well, for starters, we can't leap towards other players. We can't leap to other teammates either.

 

Leg shot breaks on damage, as does Flashbang grenade. Debilitate is our only useful stun for use in combat, and that's CQB exclusive. Ambush's knockback is exclusive to marksmanship, which these days are a minority of snipers.

 

What do warriors get? Well, certainly not as much as Sages/Sorcs, but you've still got plenty. Force Choke, Intercede, Force Camouflauge, and Chilling Scream would be fairly nice to have, and as snipers, we don't get anything remotely similar. Juggernauts get Force Push (we have to spec to get our knockback), Intimidating roar is your Flashbang equivalent, Backhand is your debilitate equivalent and Marauder's Crippling Slash is a lot more effective than Leg Shot.

 

Is your CC/Utility excessive? No, but it's definitely more varied and more effective than a snipers'.

 

Whoah, whoah whoah... WHOAH. Let's separate these out:

 

Force Choke: both, but immobilizes the user for the duration unless they're spec'd high in the immortal tree

 

Intercede: Jug only, can only target allies

 

Force Camo: Marauder only, 4 second duration good for escaping IIRC

 

Chilling Scream: Jug only, slows the targets. How does this effect you in cover, again?

 

But what exactly do your CC abilities do? that's what I'm asking.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Anatlos

[Xaearth]

Do you play a sniper...? It sounds kinda like you do to me?

 

O.o that would mean a SNIPER is on my side for this

 

Yes, and I agree that the blocking of charge not using cover's positional cone is stupid.

 

As I said earlier (but was lost in the mass of flame posts), the problem with charging to a sniper/gunslinger in cover is the fact that it would automatically knock us out of cover because root/immobilize prevents cover.

 

... Which I also believe to be a rather stupid mechanic.

 

Ideally, melee should be able to charge us from behind, and, ideally, we should be able to respond with an "Oh ****" cover pulse or debilitate + ambush to send said melee flying.

[Vesperr]

Take Cover

Instant

Cooldown: 1s

Roll into the selected cover point. Taking cover increases your ranged defense and, so long as you remain down, most ranged attackers strike your cover instead.

 

This one?

Damn, bioware has to update the tooltip(s) already. It says on pull abilities that they doesnt work against targets in cover, same with charge abilities. Its part of sniper mechanic, without it they are dead meat. If you want bioware to remove immunity to charge, snipers (who are one of the squishiest classes in the game) has to get something instead, say they get buffed to the level of sorcs. There's also one ****** combo for tankasins/powertechs where you can stun the sniper with their 30m stun and pull them (stun gets them out of the cover, which is as stupid as not being able to charge them but who cares), they usually die in the next 10 seconds or less. Snipers also cant use cover (and crouch) while being immobilized which is beyond stupid.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Vesperr

[Vid-szhite]

As a Juggernaut main who has played Gunslinger, I say no. Snipers are ridiculously squishy, and they have to become pretty much immobile to use any of their abilities, while we have among the best mobility in the game and the ability to pretty much shut them down once we get in melee range. Not to mention, thanks to Snipers using Weapon attacks, all their attacks are fully affected by our defenses, making them probably one of the worst classes to use against us.

 

If we could charge Snipers, we could start DPSing them at pretty much the same time as they start DPSing us, since Charge has a 30m range and they can't kite, and since their DPS is ALL interruptable, with their hardest hitting attack having a 4-second cast timer with an obvious cast effect, they'd be sitting ducks against us. They have less health than us, less armor than us, and their attacks are more affected by defenses than ours. We have defensive cooldowns that make them useless besides, not to mention Force Push which throws them out of cover.

 

TL;DR - Our lack of Charge against them is countered by their lack of ability to do pretty much anything to us once we get up close. I can't even remember the last time a Sniper killed me.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[Vid-szhite]

You mean like the multitude of snipers/gunslingers posting in this thread that have no clue how cover works and can't possibly imagine how warriors/knights being able to charge to them while in cover might actually be good for the game, as well as the snipers/gunslingers themselves?

 

Hint: Charge has an immobilize built in...

 

Charge has an immobilize built in, which knocks you out of cover and prevents you from going back in, AND an interrupt built in, which stops your current action no matter what it was. How is that good for Snipers?

 

If we're talking about allowing charge to work from behind, fine. From the front, though? Snipers need that to live.

 

Here's how you handle a Sniper:

 

-He alone and behind cover? LoS him, charge him when he tries to follow.

-He next to a non-Sniper teammate? Charge his teammate! Inevitably, some herpderp Merc will stand next to him because he likes that vantage point too.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[Vid-szhite]

Whoah, whoah whoah... WHOAH. Let's separate these out:

 

Force Choke: both, but immobilizes the user for the duration unless they're spec'd high in the immortal tree

 

But no matter the spec, builds rage and does damage. In Rage spec, the most common Warrior PvP spec, is the setup for Critsmash, which will ruin a Sniper's day. Bonus: knocks them out of cover and builds just enough rage so you can hit Obliterate and gain Critsmash right there.

 

Intercede: Jug only, can only target allies

 

The point being, Snipers don't have an ability that gets them out of danger or gets others out of danger. We can flee to a teammate at will and increase their damage reduction by 20%. His ability to flee is Leg Shot > Pray no one sneezes on you, pray there are no other Warriors in the area.

 

Force Camo: Marauder only, 4 second duration good for escaping IIRC

 

Snipers don't have any stealth modes, just like Juggernauts. Force Camo increases a Marauder's speed, so it could be a useful tool for getting in range as well.

 

Chilling Scream: Jug only, slows the targets. How does this effect you in cover, again?

 

It doesn't, but Chilling Scream prevents people from running away from you if you are a Juggernaut, and is a spammable AoE. If you have the Tier 2 Immortal talent, which is feasible since Tier 1 of Immortal is amazing even for DPS, all it costs is a global cooldown.

 

But what exactly do your CC abilities do? that's what I'm asking.

 

All Agents get Debilitate, which lasts 6 seconds but is melee range only, and Flashbang, which lasts 8 seconds and is AoE, but breaks on damage. That's pretty much it. Snipers get Leg Shot and Cover Pulse, which immobilize for 5 seconds, but they both break on damage. Engineers might get Interrogation Probe, but that one doesn't slow 15/30% unless you talent for the movement slow. Chilling Scream slows 50%, lasts longer, is AoE, and is potentially free.

 

They pretty much have the same level of CC that we do. Immortal Juggs have more CC than they do and are pretty much a Sniper's direct counter. Immortal is possibly the only spec more common than Rage in PvP - I see TONS of Juggernauts running Soresu (and if you're running Soresu as anything but Immortal, you're a nublet).

 

Point being, if a Sniper picks a target, it's not going to be you. He's going to pick the Sorcerer every time, because he can kill the Sorcerer, but if he pisses you off, he's not long for this world. If you're Rage, he's screwed as soon as you get in range for a Critsmash combo or two. If you're Vengeance, he's even more screwed because you have fast-ticking DoTs - a cast timer class's worst nightmare. If you're Immortal, you can go afk and watch as his attacks do no damage, get deflected, get shielded, proc Retaliate, and give you stacks of Revenge. Then you can chain CC him and kill him before he even gets a chance to shoot back.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[ButterStrawKid]

Line of sight

 

/thread

[Exilim]

Force choke has a 10m range. You can't use that before a charge.

 

And a 1 min cooldown on an ability that lets you use your attacks effectively for 20 seconds while being harassed? Wish i had something like that... If you're being attacked by people constantly knocking you out of cover for more than 20 seconds I'd imagine it's time to move.

 

WELL You're a different class that plays differently so I'm betting you have something that the sniper wishes he had like 50% deflection buff 40% all damage reduction buff, heavy armor. You know stuff like that....

[Kautious]

OP, go and play a sniper and then tell us how you enjoy fighting juggs...

[Dulark]

Theres a tradeoff you might not be aware off actually

 

IF we get charged or rooted we CANNOT enter cover basically making us not be able to attack you/use our utility for 2-3 seconds effectively being a stun on us.

 

So ye thats the tradeoff.

 

I would agree that Warriors should be able to charge us IF they remove this and perhaps make cover screen effect melee defenses aswell because otherwise you can just faceroll/zerg us as soon as you see us.

 

Why id like the extra defense in melee is cuz atm the only class were actually countering are other operatives/snipers.... thats asinine.

[DeltaThirteen]

He's not trolling, and he has a point. Let me put it more plainly because clearly everyone is rabid to get there "oh snap" remark in and feel smug.

 

When you're in cover in the game (I have both an agent and a warrior), you have defensive bonuses to all enemies in a frontal cone. If an enemy is outside of this cone, you do not have a defensive bonus against them. The OPs point is that this should be a consistent. If the "cover" doesn't wrap all the way around the player (and this isn't up for debate...cover DOESN'T wrap around), why should the bonuses wrap around (and they don't except with charge)?

 

I agree that snipers don't need any more nerfs, but with entrench and pulse a good sniper can keep a good warrior at range even with a charge landing. It happens everyday.

 

And then people learn how to actually use all of their abilities and ruin the Slinger's ability to do anything substantial. I also hear LoS is a hard counter to snipers. If this guy isn't trolling, he's probably the sort of person confused by basic things like zippers and door knobs.

[CaptainInsano]

I know man Snipers are just running amuck in Warzones dominating everyone lets nerf them lol what?

[AlrightJack]

It seems to me the OP shows a lack of awareness of the way ranged/ melee encounters are intended to work in an mmo.

 

The concept is that the ranged player has to keep the melee player back and kill them before the melee player gets to range else the melee player roflstomps the ranged player into the floor.

 

You are suggesting the Knight/Warrior classes should negate that whole process and go straight to the roflstomp, essentially you want an I win button versus gunslinger/ sniper, and primarily SS/MM who can't move and remain effective.

 

Bringing real world physics into this game is pointless and clouds the issue, because real people can't jump 30m into combat, so that one is pointless.

 

The only valid arguement to be made would be that gunslingers have too many tools to keep melee away. But that is different to I want an IWIN button.

[PAcifisti]

Pistol whip to the face is undefendable strike that not even the most cunning jedi can prevent.

Sniper shot from behind coming at 500m/s is easily dodged or deflected (and shielded) back to the sender.

How about we get back to the "logics" argument after snipers have had their abilities change to make more sense.

 

Your "solution" is in one word, a nerf. You're not proposing anything in return, you just want to wtfbbq any sniper by just hammering the same button as against anything else. Marauders already posses all tools required to kill snipers. Only thing you need is the capability to press buttons in right order.

 

No, I'm not going to tell you how to do it. Why? Because I play a gunslinger and the last thing this class needs is more opponents who know how to play. It's already retarded how much the game seems to hate snipers / slingers. Cover gives ranged defences? Yeah against snipers. Every other ranged class deals tech / force damage and your 25% defence chance doesnt work against those.

 

Our armor penetration scheme is the worst out of all dps classes. No merc's passive armor penetration stance / extra armor reduction from spamming attacks, no operative / scoundrel apply armor penetration before fight. We have to waste extra gcd firing a ~300 dmg ability that applies incredibly low 20% armor debuff on the target.

 

Add the absense of "tech" abilities in the direct damage tree (and the dot specs screwing your survivability since roots / flashbang breaks on dmg) and the job is done. Quite often in the warzone you'll find maybe 2-3 targets who dont reduce your dmg to nearly nothing (combination of high armor and shield absorbing the hits, if you even hit them due to deflect / dodge). Surely the sniper needs nerf to cover, they're so bloody op!

[Infalliable]

You haven't read more than 3 words in this thread have you...

 

So I need an accurate head-count here: how many/what CC abilities does a sniper in a typical, popular PvP spec have? Include knockbacks, slows, snares, stuns, mez, the works.

 

All snipers will have

 

1. Cover pulse (AOE knockback ~10m, requires cover). buggy but good when it works

2. Debilitate (melee 4s stun)

3. Flashbang (AOE sleep, 8 sec). It's good for marksman, okay for engineers, and nearly worthless for Lethality b/c all the DOTs in the specs break it immediately.

4. Legshot (immob, 5 sec or breaks after 2 sec with damage). Poor for lethality, okay for the other specs b/c of the DOTs breaking it after 2 sec.

 

Other things from mid-teir talents:

1. Heavy Shot (marksman spec, knockback on 2.5 sec cast ambush (talents can bring it to 1.5 s after a crit))

2. Interrogation probe (Engineer spec, -15/30% speed debuff, 18sec)

3. Corrosive gren (Lethality spec, -15/30% speed debuff)

 

Sniper CC powers also have insanely high resolve with them, so chaining them isn't possible.

 

The tooltip for cover is sort of misleading. It provides on mitigation against normal ranged attacks, which there are almost none by non-sniper players (everything is melee, tech or force). Immobs prevent the use of cover, so leaping to a sniper is basically is a death sentence as charge roots.

 

Heavy armor significantly mitigates most sniper damage as most is standard ranged damage.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Infalliable

[Gelich]

While I feel that cover SHOULD block charge to some extent, I also feel that it should take into account player Position. IE I should be able to charge the gunslinger/sniper that's got his back exposed to me. It would be tricky as **** to code in an mmo though...

 

Actually, the whole facing thing is already in.

[freche]

Seriously? A warrior class crying about another class ? Get real, you have the currently most OP class in the game, l2p.

[Boreus]

No, you shouldn't be able to charge them while they are in cover. And this is coming from someone who plays a Juggernaut and not a sniper. Since this is probably about huttball, my suggestion is to use los and don't let them catch you with your pants down. So to summarize: no they can't just nerf the only edge snipers have over you.

[OldSwab]

And it also defeats the purpose of melee when you can't get near said sniper to attack them, even when you catch them unawares from behind.

You just might need to employ some cover to avoid being sniped, or figure out how to approach them without your faceroll dilithium crystals at full capacity. Oh, the tragedy.

 

Its unfortunate that you aren't able to use your same "haha-dead" rotation to 25%* of the classes out there. So very unfortunate that you have to do something different when you see a different class. Unconscionable game design, I tell you.

 

I play an op medic. The grousing over a lack of an instant gap closer for 25% (or is it 12.5? do ops/smugglers enjoy the same effect?) of the classes you face is very refreshing.

 

Your mileage will vary.

[Anatlos]

Actually, the whole facing thing is already in.

 

But it doesn't work.

[HBninjaX]

signed

 

cover restricting charge is ridiculous from a melee dps point of view, especially in huttball