Kinetic: Stacking Defense vs. Absorption?

[MatzahMaul]

I've selected Defense for my Kinetic Shadow. I really do not know if that is better than Absorption. That's why I am asking.

 

Or should I be using both in a 50/50 split?

 

 

Here is my spec so far, in case anyone wants to critique that too.

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/jedi_consular/shadow/#::f19e3fefe4cefefe3f21

[Dulwaithe]

You might find this thread useful:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=288619

 

Haven't looked through all the calculations myself, but overall seems fairly reliable.

[MithrilSoul]

General thought:

 

Defense is always going to be better than Shield and/or Absorption. When you "defend" an attack (technically, deflect/resist/etc.), you take zero damage. A shielded attack is still going to do some damage, in fact is still going to do most of its damage.

 

No comparison.

 

ON TOP OF THAT, I am pretty sure if the attack launched at you is a DoT, then the damage reduction from getting shielded only applies to the initial damage, not to the individual DoT components. Which means if it is an attack where nearly all the damage is via dots, then even if you shield the attack, it is doing virtually 100% of its normal damage to you.

 

ON TOP OF THAT, if it is an attack that also places some sort of debuff on you, avoiding the attack completely (via Defense rating) means you avoid getting debuffed. Whereas if that attack is shielded, you may suffer less damage, but whatever negative debuff the attack places on the target is still going to be on you.

 

End result: as a tanking Shadow, I am always going to take Defense over either Shield or Absorption.

 

EDIT: I probably should add, obviously at some point diminishing returns starts to kick in and modifies the situation. At least in theory. I'm just not sure you can build levels high enough where it makes a significant impact, at least before hitting decked-out-endgame levels of gear.

Edited February 14, 2012 by MithrilSoul

[Varcan]

I wear the offensive Stalker gear(don't use a shield), but do carry Survivor doube-saber, belt, and footwear. I may add the Survivor earing aswell. Providing a defense rating over 20%. Extra Power and Surge mod/enhancements slot'd into several pieces.

 

I'm finding defense more useful with what seems like an influx of lvl50 Maruaders/Warrior, and even a few more Snipers than before. In general, people have grown bored of their Sorcs, and the rerolls are starting to hit 50. You're also hell for Assassins, and Darkness Assassins will have more trouble getting their auto-crit to proc on you since you avoid more hits.

 

With the auto crit project, and wearing the Stalker gear for extra force potency charge, sacrificing a bit of crit on a KC Shadow is taking advatage of the mechanic imo.

 

However, wearing a shield is a significant power lose, and is still not worth it, unless playing a very specific role in PvP.

[oddmyth]

General thought:

 

Defense is always going to be better than Shield and/or Absorption. When you "defend" an attack (technically, deflect/resist/etc.), you take zero damage. A shielded attack is still going to do some damage, in fact is still going to do most of its damage.

 

No comparison.

 

ON TOP OF THAT, I am pretty sure if the attack launched at you is a DoT, then the damage reduction from getting shielded only applies to the initial damage, not to the individual DoT components. Which means if it is an attack where nearly all the damage is via dots, then even if you shield the attack, it is doing virtually 100% of its normal damage to you.

 

ON TOP OF THAT, if it is an attack that also places some sort of debuff on you, avoiding the attack completely (via Defense rating) means you avoid getting debuffed. Whereas if that attack is shielded, you may suffer less damage, but whatever negative debuff the attack places on the target is still going to be on you.

 

End result: as a tanking Shadow, I am always going to take Defense over either Shield or Absorption.

 

EDIT: I probably should add, obviously at some point diminishing returns starts to kick in and modifies the situation. At least in theory. I'm just not sure you can build levels high enough where it makes a significant impact, at least before hitting decked-out-endgame levels of gear.

 

Enjoy dieing while you waste your stat points on the first roll of a two roll system and defense caps out at 30% and hits dimret at 23-24%.

 

You will be the terrible avoidance tank of WoW that all the healers despised healing because you took such spiky and unexpected damage that they couldn't keep up on extended battles.

 

The truth is you should stack defense to shield/absorb in a 1:2 ratio. That is if you have 13% def, you should also have 26% shield and 26% absorb.

 

If you aren't doing that then you aren't defending against the two roll system and you are just taking more damage for the sake of being blinded by damage avoidance instead of overall average damage reduction.

[menacegb]

I've selected Defense for my Kinetic Shadow. I really do not know if that is better than Absorption. That's why I am asking.

 

Or should I be using both in a 50/50 split?

 

 

Here is my spec so far, in case anyone wants to critique that too.

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/jedi_consular/shadow/#::f19e3fefe4cefefe3f21

 

I'm curious why you didn't put 2 points in to applied force instead of the Shadow Sight. Double strike is pretty important for Particle accelleration so why not have the added 6% damage ?

[Sogar]

Well you need every stat as a kinetic.

After that it depends if you are talking about PvP or PvE.

 

For PvP, Defense is the best by a small margin while you want shield = absorption (so absorption until you reach 35 than both).

 

Until you reach this cap you can consider that defense and absorption are about as important (defense is a tiny bit better). After that keep balancing it a bit but you really won't need more.

 

Defense is better for PvE though (because of accuracy on PvP lowering your real defense score) so you will want it a bit more there but DR still means that eventually you will want all those stats.

[MatzahMaul]

I'm curious why you didn't put 2 points in to applied force instead of the Shadow Sight. Double strike is pretty important for Particle accelleration so why not have the added 6% damage ?

 

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/jedi_consular/shadow/#::f19e3fe6cefe7f4ef5ef2ef2ef2

 

Final spec.

[Nempo]

Enjoy dieing while you waste your stat points on the first roll of a two roll system and defense caps out at 30% and hits dimret at 23-24%.

 

You will be the terrible avoidance tank of WoW that all the healers despised healing because you took such spiky and unexpected damage that they couldn't keep up on extended battles.

 

The truth is you should stack defense to shield/absorb in a 1:2 ratio. That is if you have 13% def, you should also have 26% shield and 26% absorb.

 

If you aren't doing that then you aren't defending against the two roll system and you are just taking more damage for the sake of being blinded by damage avoidance instead of overall average damage reduction.

 

I tank raids like a champ with predictable damage intake. 30% defence, 35% shield (not counting the 15% from KD), 35% absorb. nearly 20k hp unbuffed.

 

You do realize that if an enemy crits on you...you cannot shield it. Thus defense is ALWAYS the better bet. Actually watch the numbers on the damage floating over your head (hint, you will never see the shield proc whenever the giant "you just got crit on son" numbers float up). Thus shield is currently broken as a thing a tank can rely on nearly as well as they can rely on defense.

 

Your method is the blinded method. You are forgetting the order of operations in attacks, thus you must skew the ratio in favor of defense.

Untill they change the order of operations, stack defense with shield secondary.

[tXHereticXt]

Haven't figured out a proper method for either Sin or Shadow, I'd say 50/50 is good. CT/DC essentially not only boost shield chance but they can boost the amount of damage a Shield will absorb as well with enhancements further boosting it via Shield ratings and Absorption. can't say it would be dumb to rely on either or predominately. DoTs will still, apparently, hurt you for what they do and your armor is the only thing affecting how much damage it drops off at. 50/50 I think is healthy but I haven't gotten to raid or farm HM FPs on my Sin to figure out which works best.

[BroadStreetBully]

Another thing to consider is that Absorption only helps shielded attacks. Force and Tech attacks cannot be shielded. Therefore Shield/Absorb are only helpful for melee and ranged attacks. Defense on the other hand, can help you to avoid being hit altogether for all types.

[oddmyth]

I tank raids like a champ with predictable damage intake. 30% defence, 35% shield (not counting the 15% from KD), 35% absorb. nearly 20k hp unbuffed.

 

First your numbers are off and thus unless you can show me an unshopped screen shot, you are lying. Anyone with numbers like that will have over 20k health unbuffed. I have 26 def, 33 shield and 37 absorb and 21k health unbuffed. If you are getting into Rakata gearing you have over 20k unbuffed.

 

You do realize that if an enemy crits on you...you cannot shield it. Thus defense is ALWAYS the better bet. Actually watch the numbers on the damage floating over your head (hint, you will never see the shield proc whenever the giant "you just got crit on son" numbers float up). Thus shield is currently broken as a thing a tank can rely on nearly as well as they can rely on defense.

 

I think you only half understand the combat roll system. Its a two roll system. The first roll is being hit versus defending the attack and that's where your +defence comes into play. The second roll occurs when you've been hit and its being hit versus being crit versus shielding the attack. Thus nothing is broken, you simply didn't understand that this isn't some other game.

 

You are correct if you get crit, you will never shield, but you will also never defend versus a critical hit either, because critical hits are determined on the second roll of the combat system after its already been decided that you got hit in the first place.

 

What you aren't understanding is diminishing returns on stacking particular stats. That is to say that stacking defence will become harder and harder to do past a certain point and given that you have a static maximum number of stat points that can be alloted to all your secondary stats at any one time, then you realize that the best allotment of those stats is to try and reach the point where all of your stats are about the hit diminshing returns and then any extra points above and beyond those points can be placed in priority stats like defence.

 

Those diminishing return points are 23-24% for defense, 45% for absorb and the mid thirties for shield rating based on the most current calculations. So when you say you have 30% defense, I say you have wasted a fair number of stat points getting there that could have been more efficiently moved to shield or absorb and given you better overall mitigation.

 

Your method is the blinded method. You are forgetting the order of operations in attacks, thus you must skew the ratio in favor of defense.

Untill they change the order of operations, stack defense with shield secondary.

 

As I've written above, I don't think you understand how the combat roll system works and thus its trivial to denounce an argument that contradicts things that are easy to prove mathematically. Understanding the combat roll system and how diminishing returns work are primary concerns here. Learn how these things work and you will understand how you can gear better.

[oddmyth]

Another thing to consider is that Absorption only helps shielded attacks. Force and Tech attacks cannot be shielded. Therefore Shield/Absorb are only helpful for melee and ranged attacks. Defense on the other hand, can help you to avoid being hit altogether for all types.

 

No. Force and tech attacks cannot be shielded or defended. This is why you have Internal and Elemental resistance which is the type of damage done by Force and Tech attacks. That is the only mechanism to defend against those types of attacks.

[Kitru]

People seem to need a quick refresher on the two roll system and how Defense and Absorb are important within the confines of it.

 

First off, in the two roll system, the only thing that matters is the attack type: Force/Tech or melee/ranged. Both attack types go through the same 2 checks (the "hit" check and the "type" check), but the attack type determines what values are used. Force/Tech attacks use defensive values that can only be affected by talents and abilities: resistance chance (for the first roll) and there isn't any possibility of shielding it: the first roll to hit uses the target's accuracy minus your resistance chance (which is, passively, at best 2% thanks to talents and it being unaffected by any gearing) and the second roll simply determines whether the attack is a crit or a hit (since it can't be shielded). It doesn't matter how well geared you are against a Force/Tech attack because it ignores any Defense, Shield, or Absorb rating that you might have by simply bypassing them. Melee/ranged attacks, on the other hand go against the full suite of your defensive attributes: you use your full Defense chance on the first roll against the target's accuracy and your shield chance in the type roll. Because of this, the entire discussion only applies to melee/ranged attacks.

 

Now, as to crit v. shield, the only time that crit pushes shield chance off of the second roll is when the combined total of the 2 is greater than 100%. If your shield chance is 65% and the attacker's crit chance is 35%, you simply have a 65/35/0 split, with the 0 representing normal hits. If your shield chance is 50% and the attacker's crit chance is 35%, you have a 50/25/15 split. If your shield chance is 65% and the attacker's crit chance is 100% (like say, from a proc), you have a 0/100/0 split. The only time when crit pushing shield off of the table matters is when you have exorbitantly high values of one or the other.

 

In PvE, you're never going to get to this point since we're not even sure if NPCs *can* crit and, if they do, the chance is so low that Shield would simply cap out at points *way* beyond the point of diminishing returns.

 

In PvP, since crit chance starts hitting diminishing returns around 35% (barring talents that augment the crit rate of specific attacks), this means that, against the minority of damage that is applied via melee/ranged attacks (Force/Tech is *way* more heavily loaded in the damage that players deal), the point where Shield chance is reliably pushed off by attacks (other than those talented to automatically crit) is similarly unattainable, though likely to be attainable at better gear ratios (~65%). The problem with PvP, however, is that, since Shield chance and Defense don't apply to a majority of the damage (delivered via Force/Tech attacks) you're facing, you're better off simply ignoring it and stacking offensive stats and Endurance. Debating the value of Shield v. Defense in the confines of PvP is a pointless argument since they're both comparatively worthless.

 

As to the Defense v. Absorption argument, since Defense and Shield (and therefore Absorption) are only important in PvE, it comes down to comparing their values ignorant of crit capabilities; therefore, the crit argument against Shield rating and Absorption are completely without grounds. Similarly, it doesn't matter where in the equation the reduction in damage is factored in: the value of each roll is entirely equal. That's simply how math works: .5 * .5 * .5 = .125; remove any of those numbers and the value doubles, whether it's the first, the middle, or the last one. The order of precedence has no impact upon the overall performance of the mitigation mechanism; if this were true, the most effective form of mitigation (damage reduction), would be of the least importance since it only applies at the very end.

 

Now, since those fallacies have been cleared out of the way, I can get down to the specifics of the case for Defense and Absorb. First off, it needs to be said that Defense chance has a flat contribution of reduced incoming damage while Shield and Absorb, since they interact with each other, have an exponential and related contribution: while Defense is useful on its own, having Shield or Absorb without the other is relatively pointless. When you understand this, you then need to realize that, without getting into the complexities of diminishing returns, Defense, Shield, and Absorption rating add to their given percentages (Defense chance, Shield chance, Absorption value) in a roughly 4:2:1 ratio, meaning that, for the same percent gains you would achieve from a given value of Absorption rating, it would require twice as many points of Shield rating and 4 times as many points of Defense rating. So, since Defense has a static contribution relative to the variable contribution of Shield and Absorb, we'll use that as the baseline: since a successful Defense chance reduces incoming damage to 0 (100% mitigation), we're going to assign Defense rating an effectiveness value of 25% (1 rating at 25% value for 100% mitigation) for the purposes of comparison. Shield and Absorb, since they're variable in their total contribution as determined by the Shield chance and Absorb value, have, instead a variable effectiveness value, meaning that their value compared to Defense chance depends entirely upon how much Shield and Absorb you have at the time. Going off of the most effective combination of Shield and Absorb (ignoring talents and other mechanisms), you achieve the same contribution from the sum of Shield and Absorb at 50% for the both of them (.5 shield chance for .5 absorb value = .25 mitigation) but at a better ratio of effectiveness (1 absorb and 2 shield to equate to 4 defense), meaning that you actually reach the point of equivalence, thanks to the effects of the relative efficiency of Defense compared to Absorb and Shield rating, at 37.5% for both (.5 * (3 / 4)), or, more accurately, when the produced mitigation value of your Shield chance (Shield * Absorb) is equal to 14% (.375^2). At this point, you will get the same mitigation contributions from adding 2 points to Shield and Absorb that you would get from adding 4 points of Defense.

 

The overall lesson of that wall of text is twofold: Shield and Absorb are more efficient than Defense from a pure itemization expenditure standpoint and Shield and Absorb become more valuable than Defense pretty quickly (with just talents, you've got a 35% shield chance and 24% absorb rating). It's also more important to look at your end percentage values (Defense chance, Shield chance, Absorb value) than it is to look at the ratings blindly: Shield and Absorb's relative values are determined by the end chance rather than by their ratings exclusively.

 

Bringing it all together, the fundamental conclusion about stat prioritization is relatively clear: you either stack Defense or you don't (depending upon personal preference) without completely ignoring it and you do your best to stack Absorb and Shield such that they achieve the highest percentage yield accounting for diminishing returns. To put it in plain words and without making you do a lot of math to find out what the DR values are, you want to stack as such: (Defense)>Absorb>Shield>(Defense); Defense goes either first or last depending almost entirely on personal preference, Absorb is either your best or second best stat since we get so much Shield chance from talents (35% Shield chance compared to 24% Absorb value) and Shield is either worst or second worst for the same reason why Absorb beats it out.

 

TL: DR

Lotsa math and logic to arrive out the following prioritization: (Defense)>Absorb>Shield>(Defense)

[Kitru]

No. Force and tech attacks cannot be shielded or defended. This is why you have Internal and Elemental resistance which is the type of damage done by Force and Tech attacks. That is the only mechanism to defend against those types of attacks.

 

Damage type is completely independent of attack type. You can have an internal melee attack just as easily as you can have a kinetic Force attack. Project is probably the single biggest example of this: it's quite obviously a Force attack and yet it deals kinetic damage. Damage reduction (which is the proper term since "resistance" is the term used to indicate your chance to dodge Force/Tech attacks) is also not the only mechanism you can use against Force, since you still have resistance. Neither of them can be appreciably stacked for since damage reduction and resistance both come only from abilities, talents, and set bonuses and the term "stacking" refers to selecting gear in such a way as to maximize those values; the only way you can gear yourself to be more survivable against Force/Tech attacks is to stack Endurance, which is of questionable value in the first place.

[oddmyth]

Damage type is completely independent of attack type. You can have an internal melee attack just as easily as you can have a kinetic Force attack. Project is probably the single biggest example of this: it's quite obviously a Force attack and yet it deals kinetic damage.

 

I should have said *most* force and tech attacks. There are a few notable exceptions, like Project, Thermal Detonator, Tracer Missile etc.

 

is to stack Endurance, which is of questionable value in the first place.

 

Somewhat less questionable since 1.1.2 but that's another argument.

[Mackenzae]

I tank raids like a champ with predictable damage intake. 30% defence, 35% shield (not counting the 15% from KD), 35% absorb. nearly 20k hp unbuffed.

 

You do realize that if an enemy crits on you...you cannot shield it. Thus defense is ALWAYS the better bet. Actually watch the numbers on the damage floating over your head (hint, you will never see the shield proc whenever the giant "you just got crit on son" numbers float up). Thus shield is currently broken as a thing a tank can rely on nearly as well as they can rely on defense.

 

Your method is the blinded method. You are forgetting the order of operations in attacks, thus you must skew the ratio in favor of defense.

Untill they change the order of operations, stack defense with shield secondary.

 

I call ******** on your 30% defense with also having that high of shield and absorb. Post real numbers and maybe people might listen to you.

[Mackenzae]

I tank raids like a champ with predictable damage intake. 30% defence, 35% shield (not counting the 15% from KD), 35% absorb. nearly 20k hp unbuffed.

 

You do realize that if an enemy crits on you...you cannot shield it. Thus defense is ALWAYS the better bet. Actually watch the numbers on the damage floating over your head (hint, you will never see the shield proc whenever the giant "you just got crit on son" numbers float up). Thus shield is currently broken as a thing a tank can rely on nearly as well as they can rely on defense.

 

Your method is the blinded method. You are forgetting the order of operations in attacks, thus you must skew the ratio in favor of defense.

Untill they change the order of operations, stack defense with shield secondary.

 

I call ******** on your 30% defense with also having that high of shield and absorb. Post real numbers and maybe people might listen to you.

[Kitru]

I should have said *most* force and tech attacks. There are a few notable exceptions, like Project, Thermal Detonator, Tracer Missile etc.

 

Actually, internal/elemental attacks are still in the minority for Force/Tech attacks as well. A vast majority of the damage that players have is kinetic/energy: for Consulars, the only internal/elemental attacks are Shadow Technique Force Breach, Force in Balance, Sever Force, and Weaken Mind; for Knights, Plasma Brand, Cauterize, Overload Saber and some talents that add minor i/e DoTs to other attacks; for Smugglers, Incendiary Grenade, Wounding Shots (roughly 33% i/e), Shrapnel Bomb, Flechette Round (50% more damage as a DoT on the backstabs), and Vital Shots; for Troopers, Plasma Grenade (50% damage as an elemental DoT), Incendiary Round, Pulse Cannon, Explosive Surge, Ion Pulse, Energy Blast, Fire Pulse, and Gut (50% damage as an internal DoT).

 

A *vast* majority of the attacks that a player uses are kinetic/energy. At most, a player will have 2-3 attacks that deal i/e damage in the majority that are actually used within the given spec. I/E damage is actually pretty rare for players to deal and is most common in the form of DoTs on attacks. Those attacks that deal I/E damage outright are even more rare.

[Kitru]

I call ******** on your 30% defense with also having that high of shield and absorb. Post real numbers and maybe people might listen to you.

 

My Shadow tank has 19k hp, 30% defense, 52% shield (with KW), and 35% absorb. Those numbers are entirely appropriate. If you actually knew what real numbers *looked* like, you might actually be able to contribute to the discussion.

[Mackenzae]

My Shadow tank has 19k hp, 30% defense, 52% shield (with KW), and 35% absorb. Those numbers are entirely appropriate. If you actually knew what real numbers *looked* like, you might actually be able to contribute to the discussion.

 

Good for you .... I'm guessing you have 32% shield rating minus the 20 from the set bonus which is 3% less than what he was claming while having 30% defense as well.

 

I know how hard it is to gear for 30% defense as a shadow because you definitely have to sacrifice some shield rating or absorb rating to get your defense rating that high at this point because the mods and enhancement combinations that would allow for optimal gearing do not exist.

[Kitru]

I'm guessing you have 32% shield rating minus the 20 from the set bonus

 

Actually, I don't. I've had friggin' terrible luck with set bonus drops and am still sitting at 1/5 of my set (though pretty much every other slot is well optimized).

[oddmyth]

Actually, I don't. I've had friggin' terrible luck with set bonus drops and am still sitting at 1/5 of my set (though pretty much every other slot is well optimized).

 

Of what set? I'm in full Columi with 4 pieces of Rakata and several mods/enhancements switched out to counter accuracy bloat and I'm not at 30% def. I'm sitting at 26% defense, 33 shield (wihtout KW) and 37 absorb.

 

And you are saying you are 1/5 of some set (every PVE set will contribute to set bonus so I'm guessing you have 1/5 Columi? Tionese?) but you have 30% def, 37% shield and 35% absorb?

 

Overall there isn't enough bloat in my setup and there aren't enough stat points for you to have those stats without having a higher gear rating than me.

 

Please enlighten me.

[JLapp]

Of what set? I'm in full Columi with 4 pieces of Rakata and several mods/enhancements switched out to counter accuracy bloat and I'm not at 30% def. I'm sitting at 26% defense, 33 shield (wihtout KW) and 37 absorb.

 

And you are saying you are 1/5 of some set (every PVE set will contribute to set bonus so I'm guessing you have 1/5 Columi? Tionese?) but you have 30% def, 37% shield and 35% absorb?

 

Overall there isn't enough bloat in my setup and there aren't enough stat points for you to have those stats without having a higher gear rating than me.

 

Please enlighten me.

 

Your tanking secondary stats seem very slow. I'm in orange gear with daily item mods (tionese main and off hand) and have (if I am remembering correctly) 25% defense and around 40% shield & absorb (without KW but including my rakata stim that adds some defense). I have about 18.5k HP with the stim.

[oddmyth]

Your tanking secondary stats seem very slow. I'm in orange gear with daily item mods (tionese main and off hand) and have (if I am remembering correctly) 25% defense and around 40% shield & absorb (without KW but including my rakata stim that adds some defense). I have about 18.5k HP with the stim.

 

Sounds like something has gone wonky.

 

I did see some discrepancy in shield rating last week, but it appears to have corrected itself after 1.1.3.

 

BTW that 26 def is with the Rakat Fort stim.