Lightning Tree isn't as bad as everyone thinks...

[cupofwater]

Just wanted to discuss full lightning builds and I am talking about 3/31/7.

 

The build itself is terrible in pvp or for undergeared pve sorcerers.

 

Once you start getting the columni and rakata pieces, many of them have high alacrity, and scale much better with the lightning tree then the madness tree. Also keep in mind that surge is being nerfed in the upcoming patch.

 

The 31 in lightning also offers a much more consistent rotation then when compared to the higher madness builds that rely solely on the wrath proc which is a 30% chance. I've had times where I had to spam force lightning 2-3 times until wrath would proc for me and I could begin my rotation. This causes a major dps loss over the course of a prolonged fight.

 

The HM EV fight for the 4th boss also helped me understand the higher dps potential of x/31/x builds because I was able to finish my guy off 15% faster then another sorc who was going the cookie cutter lightning/madness hybrid. (Keep in mind he is also more geared than I am)

 

Without DPS meters though it is still very tough to judge the higher dps spec.

 

In conclusion:

Pros: Scales better with the high alacrity gear sorcs receive from HM OPs, more consistent damage, and a more consistent rotation

 

Cons: terrible in pvp, less burst damage then madness hybrids

Edited February 13, 2012 by cupofwater

[BlanksonBlank]

I disagree with the con, agree with everything else.

 

I always top charts in warzones as 31 lightning, granted im in half BM half champ gear. 31 Lightning has plenty of tools for getting off those long cast times that are the weakness of the spec. The spec requires more awareness and positioning than the hybrid madness specs and is harder to play effectively. Also has less room for error/misused utility spells but provides bigger burst on ballcarriers/healers.

 

Im 7/31/3 for the 10% aoe dmg/healing talent to boost chain lightning

for thundering blast->instant chain lighting combos (ive done 3.5k TB into a 3.9-4k CL on many occasions and 4k TB into a 5.2k CL when the stars aligned )

 

But, all this is in my all bm/champ gear while surge stacking so i guess ill be respecing after the nerf and I'll only be getting the 5k dmg medal in my dreams

Edited February 13, 2012 by BlanksonBlank

[Daellia]

31-lightning is also ~4% behind 13/28, and will get hit harder by the Surge nerf than 13/28 (due to Thundering Blast).

 

And damage meters are irrelevant for comparing specs. In many respects, they are incredibly misleading, as it's impossible to factor out player skill, RNG, and circumstantial factors. Simulators are much more reliable.

 

Simcraft 1.1.2: http://www.simulationcraft.org/swtor/112/Sage_Sorcerer_112.html

Simcraft 1.1.3: http://www.simulationcraft.org/swtor/113/Sage_Sorcerer_113.html

[Tenacity]

It's not that lightning is terrible, it's that madness/hybrid is just so much better right now.

[TheVoidStalker]

The 31 in lightning also offers a much more consistent rotation then when compared to the higher madness builds that rely solely on the wrath proc which is a 30% chance.

 

Two things are incorrect about that statement.

 

1. It's 30% per tick of damage, so ~70% for a full cast.

2. Madness is not dependent on Wrath. In long enough fights, the only spell that Madness uses with Wrath is Crushing Darkness, which is on a 15 second cooldown. Not getting one Wrath proc in 15 seconds is pretty unlikely.

[cupofwater]

I have tried all specs raiding whys and imo think the xx/31/xx has much more overall damage in prolonged pve fights.

 

I am part of a core group that is currently 10/10 HM ops which I understand isn't amazing but just shows I have done a good amount of raiding as a sorc.

 

Also please don't tell me you raid as 13/28..

 

The builds I have tried on 2mil+ bosses

 

(1) 13/28

(2) 25/16

(3) 23/18

(4) 3/31/7

 

I'm not the type of person that likes to try one build that everyone on the forum says is the best...

 

For pve (2) and (4) I have had the best results with.

Edited February 14, 2012 by cupofwater

[cupofwater]

Two things are incorrect about that statement.

 

1. It's 30% per tick of damage, so ~70% for a full cast.

2. Madness is not dependent on Wrath. In long enough fights, the only spell that Madness uses with Wrath is Crushing Darkness, which is on a 15 second cooldown. Not getting one Wrath proc in 15 seconds is pretty unlikely.

 

 

1. In a correct rotation you should only be using force lightning once for optimal dps. If you spam it trying to get wrath to proc you are losing overall dps. ~70% full cast is say 7/10 of your rotations proc wrath, that means 3/10 of your rotations require an extra force lightning. That's 15 times wrath doesn't proc if you go through 50 rotations in a prolonged fight out of your rotations. Which IMO is quite a dps loss, and shows that your rotation relies on wrath procing.

 

2. If you are using wrath just solely on crushing darkness you are doing something wrong in your rotations or just spamming force lightning constantly. Also you are not doing the optimal damage a sorc should be doing and getting carried by your group

Edited February 14, 2012 by cupofwater

[Daellia]

In a correct rotation you should only be using force lightning once for optimal dps. If you spam it trying to get wrath to proc you are losing overall dps. ~70% full cast is say 7/10 of your rotations proc wrath, that means 3/10 of your rotations require an extra force lightning. That's 15 times wrath doesn't proc if you go through 50 rotations in a prolonged fight out of your rotations. Which IMO is quite a dps loss, and shows that your rotation relies on wrath procing.

 

I'm not sure you understand Madness hybrid builds. They use Force Lightning as their filler, they don't just "cast it once per rotation". If you're referring to a 0/25/16 build, that build is a good 15% behind 13/28 if it's using Lightning Strike as a filler (~8% behind if using Force Lightning as a filler). The only things that interrupt 13/28's FL spam are Death Field every 15, Crushing Darkness every 13.5-15, and Affliction every 21. On longer fights, CL tends to go away.

 

If you are using wrath just solely on crushing darkness you are doing something wrong in your rotations or just spamming force lightning constantly.

 

Negative. 13/28 isn't meant to use Wrath on CL every time, they can't sustain the force cost. On longer fights, CL tends to fall out of their rotation entirely. However, 13/28 only loses about 2% of their damage by completely removing CL from their rotation. Whether they use it or not, 13/28 is still 2-4% dps ahead of the other specs (which by the way rank as 0/13/28 >> 3/7/31 >= 7/18/16 >= 3/31/7 >= 7/31/3 >>> 0/25/16).

Edited February 14, 2012 by Daellia

[cupofwater]

You do understand that the simulation is extremely hypothetical, and in no way 100% accurate. You can not base these results on each boss fight, for each scenario, it is completely computer calculated and does not take into account many factors.

 

According to your information you also incorrectly stated

 

00/13/28 >> 3/7/31

 

stating >> is saying something is "much greater than" and I find a 2% dps loss is hardly considered "much less than" the calculated numbers you proposed.

 

Also the alacrity/surge/crit/power numbers are never going to match up.

Most of the higher tier armor have high alacrity (and with the surge nerfs) will actually benefit lightning builds that are based off of cast times.

 

A sorc with high alacrity can reduce the cast time of his full rotation when using lightning by 1-3 seconds. Which can drastically improve dps over a prolonged period because you are now finishing your rotations that much faster.

Edited February 14, 2012 by cupofwater

[JumpDrive]

A sorc with high alacrity can reduce the cast time of his full rotation when using lightning by 1-3 seconds. Which can drastically improve dps over a prolonged period because you are now finishing your rotations that much faster.

 

Not really, since "high alacrity" means that you have to sacrifice the stats with greater dpse modifiers ie crit/power/surge... therefore lowering/mitigating any "extra" damage you get from casting more spells. That would make them even, except alacrity does not effect all your damage while the other 3 useful stats do.

 

 

I'm 4/12 NM and have raided all 4 of the cookie cutter specs, 13/28 does the most dps, there's really no arguing it. Your right in saying lightning isn't as bad as people are making it out to be, but any serious raider would play the most optimal spec, even if it is only 4% better.

Edited February 15, 2012 by JumpDrive

[Daellia]

You do understand that the simulation is extremely hypothetical, and in no way 100% accurate. You can not base these results on each boss fight, for each scenario, it is completely computer calculated and does not take into account many factors.

 

Not 100% reliable != worthless and completely inaccurate. Simcraft is quite well built at the moment, and improving regularly. As for the boss fights argument, yes, you can't perfectly simulate them. Then again, gearing for one specific boss fight is incredibly silly anyway, and we generally sim both patchwerk fights and light/heavy movements.

 

According to your information you also incorrectly stated

 

00/13/28 >> 3/7/31

 

stating >> is saying something is "much greater than" and I find a 2% dps loss is hardly considered "much less than" the calculated numbers you proposed.

 

I was using in respect to "much greater than the average difference between specs". In other words, >> means more of a difference than >.

 

Also the alacrity/surge/crit/power numbers are never going to match up.

Most of the higher tier armor have high alacrity (and with the surge nerfs) will actually benefit lightning builds that are based off of cast times.

 

Despite the fact that Lightning gains noticeably more benefit from Alacrity than the Madness or Hybrid spec, Alacrity is still about 2/3rds the value of Power for Lightning (and about 2/3rds the value of Surge too). Also, the sims are being done with Rakata gear.

 

A sorc with high alacrity can reduce the cast time of his full rotation when using lightning by 1-3 seconds. Which can drastically improve dps over a prolonged period because you are now finishing your rotations that much faster.

 

Given the Power, Crit, and/or Surge you have to sacrifice, you actually lose[/] damage by swapping to Alacrity. Even as Lightning.