"Advanced Classes = Fundamentally Different Class Designs"

[Sixt]

Yes they have to do the same story again. But if they make another class on the same faction they are going to do 80% of the same content no matter what, so that's hardly a valid reason to change the way things work.

 

So making them do 99% of the same content and 80% of the same content is an improvement, I see

[VanorDM]

Powertechs can use death from above, and flamethrowers, and missile, where as mercenaries can use, oh, death from above, flamethrowers and missiles.

 

Yes because clearly a few shared powers, that are used in different ways for different purposes make two classes pretty much identical...

[Sixt]

Similarities on the surface do not make the class the same. In a number of game systems across the gaming world, there are fundamentally different classes which share certain attributes which make them superficially similar.

 

In other words, you don't remotely have a point.

 

why do they have to be the same? an aresnal merc and a pyro merc are not remotely the same, however they are in the same AC, so why is that ok, but an aresnal merc and a Advanced Prototype powertech are so extremely different that never the twain shall meet?

[VanorDM]

So making them do 99% of the same content

 

I guess your argument has become so weak that you don't have anything better to do then?

 

They could in fact play though the same class quest in a different way. Pick a different gender, go LS instead of DS or visa versa, ect...

 

However if the story is the only thing that matters as you seem to imply, then by that logic we should let anyone simply switch to any class on that side, because they already played though the majority of the content once before.

 

Apparently being asked to play though the same content more then once is a punishment, and we can't ask anyone to do that can we.

[Sixt]

Yes because clearly a few shared powers, that are used in different ways for different purposes make two classes pretty much identical...

 

An arsenal merc uses tracer missile 80% of the time and heat seaker missile, neither of which is available to a bodyguard or pyro specs. They use almost no shared powers, how are these then identical? A shield tech is 1000% closer to a aresnal merc than a bodyguard merc but they are not in the same AC, so your reasoning does not follow reality

[Inarai]

why do they have to be the same? an aresnal merc and a pyro merc are not remotely the same, however they are in the same AC, so why is that ok, but an aresnal merc and a Advanced Prototype powertech are so extremely different that never the twain shall meet?

 

A lot of it is in the nature of the difference. The difference between Merc builds grows from the Merc class. They're spawned by the same basic entity, the Mercenary. However, Advanced Classes don't grow from the base class. They just fold it in.

 

The reason, then, that the APPT and the ArsMerc are so different is because they grow from two very different, though superficially similar, entities. That even holds for the shared tree builds - which it should be noted is altered from one AC to the next.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Inarai

[Sixt]

 

Apparently being asked to play though the same content more then once is a punishment, and we can't ask anyone to do that can we.

 

I'm glad you have unlimited play time

[VanorDM]

however they are in the same AC

 

That right there is your answer.

[Sixt]

A lot of it is in the nature of the difference. The difference between Merc builds grows from the Merc class. They're spawned by the same basic entity, the Mercenary. However, Advanced Classes don't grow from the base class. They just fold it in.

 

so why does my merc continue to get tanking/powertech only abilities after he has picked his advanced class?

[VanorDM]

I'm glad you have unlimited play time

 

Everyone has unlimited play time or at least has the same limits as everyone else. They can all keep playing until the servers are shut down.

 

Unless you are trying to say that there's some requirement to get to lvl 50 in X hours or else you lose the game...

[tazdirector]

Allowing a AC change will have the effect of making it easier to keep a class broken, because there will be less attention drawn to the problems for that class, because fewer people are playing it.

 

In all honesty, I think you're selling both the player-base AND Bioware short. Part of Bioware's job is balance and as any veteran MMO developer will tell you, it's one of the hardest aspects.

 

And, to be fair, unless Bioware does a terrible job balancing, most classes where balance is most scrutinized (DPS) should be within 5% to 10% of each other, ignoring things like fight mechanics.

 

As far as the player-base, most guilds shouldn't be in a place where they will only invite X AC or y Class. There will be a handful of hardcore, world-first guilds that will require certain FotM.

 

Similarities on the surface do not make the class the same. In a number of game systems across the gaming world, there are fundamentally different classes which share certain attributes which make them superficially similar.

 

In other words, you don't remotely have a point.

 

On the contrary, I think you lack a point here.

 

There's a difference between similarities and exactly the same. The difference between a Mercenary and a PowerTech is the two trees you have available to you.

 

For example, in AOE situations, an Arsenal Mercenary and a Powertech Vanguard will both use DEATH FROM ABOVE and/or EXPLOSIVE DART. Not an ability *like* DFA or ED...the EXACT SAME ABILITIES.

 

There are more than just similarities when we talk about ACs...the fact remains that they (in some situations) use the EXACT same ability and in some cases even pull from the EXACT same shared Talent Tree.

 

At no point above, are we comparing a Marauder to a PowerTech in our examples. We are comparing the exact same abilities shared WITHIN a Class.

 

We are simply asking for all four trees to be open to a CLASS as we believe that ACs are nothing more than a tier or layer of specialization like Talent Trees.

[Sixt]

Well, I'm sorry it would totally break your game if you got to change a decision made for your at level 10. I would like the chance to change that decision if circumstances changed.

I know we are never going to agree, so I guess you win the thread.

[Inarai]

so why does my merc continue to get tanking/powertech only abilities after he has picked his advanced class?

 

He doesn't - if you think he does, you're mistaken. All classes have defensive cooldowns, mind you, but that's not the same as tanking abilities. Then some abilities are dual-coded, meaning that they fulfill different functions for different classes.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Inarai

[VanorDM]

We are simply asking for all four trees to be open to a CLASS as we believe that ACs are nothing more than a tier or layer of specialization like Talent Trees.

 

That's fine if you believe, that. But that is not how Bioware looks at it. They view the AC's as the base class that everything is built on, and in some cases two AC's will share some powers.

 

No one has yet to convince me otherwise, and apparently hasn't convinced Bioware otherwise either. Because and I'll say this one last time, then bow out of this conversation for now...

 

Bioware has no plans on allowing people to change AC's, because they are fundamentally different classes. You are free to disagree, but your opinion doesn't matter, neither does mine other then my opinion and Biowares are the same.

 

As such asking to change AC's is no different then asking to change from Guardian to Gunslinger, according to bioware.

[Inarai]

We are simply asking for all four trees to be open to a CLASS as we believe that ACs are nothing more than a tier or layer of specialization like Talent Trees.

 

And I will never question your right to be wrong.

[Spero-Mcgee]

I'm pretty sure Bioware would disagree with you on that. Since the more runs though, the longer people sub. The longer people sub the more money they make.

 

A MMO dev will never do anything that they believe will shorten the subscription time of the player base.

 

This pretty much, I've already been around since first week of december, its february already, aside from 32 hour work week, I got no other responsibilities besides doing some 2 hour badmington on tuesday nights and maybe some grocery shopping or going out.

But since I'm not much of an outgoing person, it's no exageration when I say I probably play around 48 hours in the week. Nobody has time these days neither do I, but I simply make time for it. Got a lvl 50 Jedi guardian, lvl 49 jedi sage, lvl 47 Vanguard and a lvl 31 scoundrel.

Now from my time spent you can already tell I lvl alot and fast too, never mind the fact that with most planets I tend to overlvl + at the same time have hundreds of thousands rested xp saved up every time, some gets used, then gets saved up again, add to the fact that alot of bonus parts of quests are kill these mobs, I get tons of bonus xp from killed mobs as well.

I havent even gotten to doing any fps/raiding with my JK even though I'm more than welcome to join a guild. I simply havent bothered joining yet.

Companions across my chars are getting gifted like crazy to max their affections.

All of this in about 2 months, I'd reckon I'd need about the same if I level the other 4 advanced classes as well. And this is just on the rep side, there's still the imp side as well.

Besides the unique trees and perhaps mechanics of each adv.class for example a Jedi Sentinel besides focus also uses a mechanic called Centering, no idea what it is but ok sure. Then there are subtle differences between the shared trees, like say dual wield instead of 1H and a offhand.

 

All of this is related to me. So in short for me myself I'd need at least 8 months to get it all done story wise(pvp more or less remains the same since classes are simply mirrors of each other). I might get bored inbetween or get enthralled by single player games like say skyrim or recently Kingdoms of Amalur(need to get both lol), so that time might go up. All of this without even getting into the really grindy part of running flashpoints/ raiding or pvping. I wouldn't exactly pay 6 months subs everytime, but 3 months seems not too bad and saves a bit instead of paying every 1 month.

My sub is still valid to somewhere in march in any case and even though I'm treating it more of a single player game, I'm ultimately having fun and becoming knowlegable in the various adv.classes eventually aint bad either. (my server is low pop, but with that guild mentioned before I should be ok in that regard)

Edited February 15, 2012 by Spero-Mcgee

[aznthecapn]

We are simply asking for all four trees to be open to a CLASS as we believe that ACs are nothing more than a tier or layer of specialization like Talent Trees.

 

You can believe it all you want to - it doesn't mean you're right.

 

A more appropriate stance would be to A) ask that we choose ACs at level 1 instead of 10 and B) have Bioware make the ACs even more varied. Take out the "shared" skills and call them something else. Revamp the "shared" tree to have different names for everything.

 

If people had never considered that Guardians and Sentinels had sprung from the same source and all their skills were labeled differently (even if hey functioned identically) and all three talent trees are different we would never be having this debate.

 

It boils down to a PERCEIVED similarity because of how Bioware designed the classes. Take away that perception and no one would have even thought of the phrase "dual AC". In the

[Aethyriel]

the AC are the real classes of the game. Draw a connection to WoW... you play a rogue to lv whatever and then you can just turn him into a mage... makes sense? No, it doesn't. Complaning about having to do the same stuff again is not a real argument, in any other mmo you'd have to do exactly that, too.

 

The one thing that bothers me about AC though is the 1 shared talenttree.. that's just pretty lazy programming and taking away the uninuqe aspect of the class a bit (although they are not exactly the same, the functionality is)... besides that, it's fine as it is. I chose a Marauder back then and I never looked back, if I ever wanted to play a Jug I'd lv one, it's ridiculous to demand you can simply change your class any time you want (with restrictions, cooldowns or whatnot) only because it'S called advanced class.. no one would've ever talked about this if you were a Marauder or Jugg from the very beginning and nothing else changed.

[xyloh]

We come from a guild that specializes in helping new players.

 

Many of them have never played a MMO before and don't really know what they are going to like. Some times they don't know until they have tried different things, sometimes as they get different abilities at higher levels the experience changes and they decide they now don't like something as much, or see someone else with the same class do something cool and want to try it, only to be told, oh you're screwed, you made a choice at level 10 and now you don't get to make that choice any more on this character. That can be majorly off putting to a new player. They can quite rightly say, "oh, I didn't know I wouldn't be able to do that" that sucks. Not everyone wants at that point to go roll a whole new character to try something out. This to them either invalidates their original character or they get to the same point with the new character, but they don't like it as much as their original, now the new character is a waste to them. If they are someone who doesn't have lots of time, this was a huge chunk of their play experience, most of which was entirely duplicated as the story is identical.

 

So you are endorsing this because of casual players??

 

I played a dps class my first year in MMO's and while it wasn't what suited me, it was what my guild needed and after the next expansion came out, I rolled each class to 20 and decided on my new class from there.

 

Yes it takes time to figure out where you fit in the MMO world, but demanding that the dev's hand you a completely new character because you didn't like the first role you chose is childish.

 

Everyone who has been a gamer for an extended period of time has rolled multiple characters before finding what fit.

 

To me SWTOR is a Role Playing game that happens to have pvp/pve in it. If you watch the movies, read the descriptions, you should find the role that you most want to play in this game.

 

If you liked Obiwan/yoda = Sage

 

Han solo = Gunslinger

 

Darth Maul = Assasin

 

etc etc etc...

 

When the Developers took into consideration the story lines and advanced classes, they put a lot of thought into how they wanted the game to play out.

 

Asking/demanding that they change the fundamental basis of the game based on how they interpreted the movies is like saying the phantom menace was the best episode of the star wars series...

 

PS. the arguement that watching the same story line to roll the other Advanced class isn't an arguement, since previous MMO's give everyone across the board in the same faction the same quests and that is way more redundant than being able to choose between 4 quest lines (story lines) on each side.

Edited February 16, 2012 by xyloh

[Johnnykat]

In regards to Advance Class change, I would completely support this opportunity and appreciate the chance to do so. It has nothing to do with PvE storylines. However, my personal reasons for wanting the ability to change my advance class is partially do to performance of the class in PvE and in PvP.

 

Why would I prefer reconsideration by the devs to allow at least one advance class change or a timer based change is this...

 

*tldr*

 

I play a Gunslinger.

 

While not every Gunslinger may agree, after reaching level 50, near level 60 valor, spec'ing multiple builds...I've exhausted my patience with this Advance Class "cover" mechanic. I understand the Scoundrel may use cover from time to time, but the bread and butter of that advance Smuggler class is not so "cover" dependent. AND, it's not even the mechanic that bothers me. I think on paper "cover" is very cool. The problem is as it currently stands, the mechanic is seriously bugged. Regularly when I attempt cover in PvE or PvP, two bugs can occur. Bug 1) Gunslinger gets stuck in "cover" position - I can no longer quickly roll into new "cover" and I will permanently slide on my knees until I relog or die. Bug 2) Gunslinger claims to be in "cover" and yet I run around as normal but I can't roll into new "cover" or even worse use "cover" based attacks even though it says I am in "cover." Bug 1 only happened from time to time when leveling, each new patch for some reason seems to cause this to happen more. Bug 2 is new. In addition to the two bugs. I find that uneven terrain nearly always prevents me from using "cover."

 

I don't have time to level another toon to 50 at the moment or in the near future. I enjoy being able to log in now to play at 50 and enjoy the upper level PvE and PvP content (even if Ilum has issues). And, even if this mechanic does get fixed in the near future, I am pretty biased now and simply don't want to hassle with it. Therefore, the chance to simply change my advance class while maintaining the storyline, and over-all feel of the smuggler class which (I want to enjoy) stays the same.

 

SO PLEASE BIOWARE...RECONSIDER THE RESPECING OF ADVANCE CLASSES.

 

Thanks.

[aznthecapn]

In regards to Advance Class change, I would completely support this opportunity and appreciate the chance to do so. It has nothing to do with PvE storylines. However, my personal reasons for wanting the ability to change my advance class is partially do to performance of the class in PvE and in PvP.

 

This is an exact reason NOT to have it. When people swap randomly because of a nerf or buff or a perceived slight to their class by the developers it damages the continuity of the game. There are builds for a Gunslinger that are less reliant on cover. They are a little more hybridized but if that's how you want to play, try them. Demanding to change your class entirely on a whim isn't justification for the system. Learn to play the Scoundrel as you level. Instead of only 80% of the story being the same (non-class questing) 100% is the same.

 

And yes, you do have the time. Your time is not a known finite unless you're terminally ill. It may take you a while but you'll get that class to max level eventually.

[tazdirector]

Bioware has no plans on allowing people to change AC's, because they are fundamentally different classes. You are free to disagree, but your opinion doesn't matter, neither does mine other then my opinion and Biowares are the same.

 

Well, I would say my opinion DOES matter. I'm a paying customer (a happy one by the way) and they've provided this neat little forum for SUGGESTIONS.

 

I am doing exactly that, SUGGESTING that they reconsider their stance on changing ACs.

 

Are they likely to do it? Only time will tell. But if you chart the history of MMOs, the community has been able to impact changes in games. Examples are RMT for EVE Online, Real Name usage in Blizzard forums, Dual-Specs in WoW (which looks like it'll make it's way into SWTOR) and many, many others.

 

And I will never question your right to be wrong.

 

The joys of living in a free country, right? I have no issue with constructive debate and, for the most part, we've been able to participate in one here and for that, I'm grateful to you, VanorDM and many others who've been able to keep this to a discussion, not a trollfest of ugliness.

 

If people had never considered that Guardians and Sentinels had sprung from the same source and all their skills were labeled differently (even if hey functioned identically) and all three talent trees are different we would never be having this debate.

 

I'm sure that would be the case. On the other hand, if they would have allowed AC changes from the start, we'd probably be having a different debate, only our "sides" would be switched.

 

Regardless, I believe the game would be better with allowing AC changes and I will continue to fight for that change. As many have said, I may just be talking to a wall...but at least it's a wall named SUGGESTIONS.

 

the AC are the real classes of the game. Draw a connection to WoW... you play a rogue to lv whatever and then you can just turn him into a mage... makes sense? No, it doesn't.

 

Please re-read my previous posts where I state the reasons why ACs are different than Classes based on decisions that Bioware has made.

 

And on a side note, I really feel bad for rogues and mages. When did they become the helpless targets of this conversation!

 

The one thing that bothers me about AC though is the 1 shared talenttree.. that's just pretty lazy programming and taking away the uninuqe aspect of the class a bit (although they are not exactly the same, the functionality is)... besides that, it's fine as it is.

 

Draw a connection to WoW, do Rogues and Mages share the EXACT SAME talent tree? Hmm...I didn't think so. Do Marauders and Juggernauts? Yes, the RAGE tree. And the talent tree is identical.

 

Asking/demanding that they change the fundamental basis of the game based on how they interpreted the movies is like saying the phantom menace was the best episode of the star wars series...

 

Well, I think commenting on what the best episode of any series would be a subjective decision.

 

Regarding changing the fundamental basis of the game, I would argue that the fundamental basis of the game SUPPORTS the ability to change ACs.

 

As illustrated in my earlier posts, the FUNDAMENTAL core of the four classes gives way to two tiers of specialization, one at the AC choice and another at the Talent Tree choice. Bioware currently gives players the ability to change the third tier (the Talent Tree choice) and gives players the CHOICE at level 10 in the second tier (the AC).

 

I am simply asking them to give players the ability to change their choice at the 2nd tier like they do in the third tier, throughout the game.

 

So you are endorsing this because of casual players??

 

That's not my primary reasoning. In fact, many folks who have come to the defense of the current system seem to assume that I'm simply lazy and have no desire to re-level content.

 

I can attest that I am an awful altaholic. In that "other" game that we've all referenced, I have four characters at level cap, all of which are raiding or have completed the most recent release of content in varied levels of difficulty.

 

I have no problem re-doing content and as many have noted, re-leveling in other games is terrible compared to SWTOR. I trust that most of us agree that the leveling and story in SWTOR is second to none.

 

I have several characters in SWTOR and am thoroughly enjoying the journey of each character regardless of the content that may be similar.

 

If you trace back to my FIRST post on Page# 1, you'll see that my PRIMARY reasoning for allowing AC changes is to support end-game activities, specifically smaller end-game operation guilds.

 

As a guild and raid leader, I've seen far too often what happens when a raid (operation) team loses a key role (healer or tank). In other games, the ability to re-spec to fulfill another role gives the guild and team flexibility to handle whatever RL situations they may face.

 

In addition, as has been pointed out by others in this thread, there will always be a time when an AC and specific talent spec is the FotM (Flavor of the Month) and will be highly requested in PUG operations and hard mode encounters (where every percentage can make the difference between a wipe and a kill).

 

In the current rendition of the AC system, a player who selected a particular AC would be left out if the other AC became the go-to standard. Now granted, there have to be lines drawn and no, I am NOT in favor of giving players the ability to switch CORE classes at a whim. At present, no game allows that and for good reason. As, has been mentioned, that would completely negate choices made at level 10.

 

What all of this boils down to again is what I highlighted in another post:

 

The primary issue comes down to where the CLASS selection ends and the SPECIALIZATION begins. No one in this forum discussion seems to have issue with different talent specs WITHIN the Advanced Class selection and the ability to RE-spec now (nor even the opportunity dual-spec in the future).

 

That leaves the main point of contention at the Advanced Class selection...is it another TIER of SPECIALIZATION or a CORE CLASS?

 

For many of us on the PRO-AC change side, an Advanced Class is NOT a completely different CLASS, but rather another layer of specialization.

 

Based on that, I believe that players SHOULD be given the opportunity to change that LAYER of customization not just "because I want to...", but primarily due to issues that arise from this being an MMO game that involves end-game activities and operations and the flexibility that can be key to a guild and team's success.

 

And finally....

 

This is an exact reason NOT to have it. When people swap randomly because of a nerf or buff or a perceived slight to their class by the developers it damages the continuity of the game.

 

I really believe people are not giving Bioware or the Player-base the benefit of the doubt. WHEN a nerf or buff comes, people will change their AC or roll another toon. It's part of the MMO landscape.

 

Plus, Bioware can limit people "swap[ing] randomly" by instituting restrictions either through cost, an extensive quest-chain or limiting the number of AC changes per month/year/character life time.

 

Besides, we won't know how a change like this will effect the game. Do a search for WoW Dual spec or WoW Respec or WoW LFG tool and look at all of the folks who said it would kill the game. All of the above were implemented over two years ago and last I checked, that game still has a thriving community with people who enjoying playing the game.

[aznthecapn]

Regardless, I believe the game would be better with allowing AC changes and I will continue to fight for that change. As many have said, I may just be talking to a wall...but at least it's a wall named SUGGESTIONS.

 

There's a reason mods closed the last threads about this and linked the devs saying they have no plans to implement AC changing. You're beating a dead horse and all these arguments are the same words said differently. Its not coming any time soon.

[Thecooljason]

I completely agree. I feel like when I choose my advanced class I am stuck in a box.

[twinionx]

Yes but there is more of a difference between a ranged healer or ranged DPS and a melee Tank or melee DPS; some do not share the same gear and most don't share skills.

 

Based upon what you said you would want to change from a rogue to a warrior or rogue to priest in a game like WoW.

 

Please tell me what is the difference between a guardian dps and a sentinel dps since both are melee dps? Hmm?

 

The fact that you use wow as an example shows your very poor understanding of SWTOR design. There is simply no wow equivalent.

 

Let me put another poser. If the ACs are so different, why share the same skill tree? Why share 80% of the same abilities?

 

The problem is Bioware is hald-arse about their design. They arbitrarily decided different skill trees are "same" (hence allow re spec and even dual-spec) but somehow AC are not the same, even though some ACs plays the same way.

 

Really, the ONLY ACs that are VERY different are the consular/inquistor classes. Even then, despite having different roles (melee dps vs range dps), some of the same abilities are still being used regardless of which AC you go for.