Please be faster with character copy implimentation...you need the feedback from 50s

[Xandarous]

I know you said this option will be implemented soon, but it needs to be in now. Many of your sweeping changes need testing and I cannot spend the hour and hours lvling and gearing up a character to do this.

 

With the new surge changes I had hoped to log in and test mod combinations, but when I found out there was no way it saddened me. Please get on this, maybe you would get the proper feedback you need and not have to go back and hot fix things so often.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Xandarous

[Ossos]

I know you said this option will be implemented soon, but it needs to be in now. Many of your sweeping changes need testing and I cannot spend the hour and hours lvling and gearing up a character to do this.

 

With the new surge changes I had hoped to log in and test mod combinations, but when I found out there was no way it saddened me. Please get on this, maybe you would get the proper feedback you need and not have to go back and hot fix things so often.

 

Player feedback is not a priority.

[Xandarous]

Game functionality, bugs, and issues with patch changes are a priority. That is why we need our lvl 50s on the ptr.

[xsmspiffs]

There are 50s on the test server... character copy is not a requirement to get a 50 on the test server. I understand that it is not a way that you may choose to get a 50 on the server, but please don't imply that content cannot be tested because of a lack of character copy.

[Talorya]

There are 50s on the test server... character copy is not a requirement to get a 50 on the test server. I understand that it is not a way that you may choose to get a 50 on the server, but please don't imply that content cannot be tested because of a lack of character copy.

 

Content isn't being tested to the fullest when there are only a handful of people on it most of the time.

Yes there are 50s, but how often are they there, and what do they actually do?

Just look at the backlash on all the GCD changes up to this point, all completely unnecessary changes that went "unnoticed" on the PTS and went completely ape**** when it went live. There isn't enough people on the PTS to test patch content properly, because there's no incentives for doing so.

 

I'm seeing 5-6 people of extremely different level ranges on the PTS per faction most of the time, that's NOT effective use of PTS.

 

PTS is supposed to catch the bugs missed by the dev teams, provide feedback before the patch moves to live, and overall TEST the content that is being changed throughout the game.

 

In order for this to be effective, you need a viable sample base that's consistently providing feedback at least around the times the patches are implemented. Currently there's no indication of that for the PTS because patch content are focused on endgame or pvp, with no population at high enough level you have no samples to say whether the changes are good or bad and then watch it hit the fans when it moves to the live servers.

 

The current problem with the PTS is the population, concurrent player numbers are stupidly LOW, no experience gain acceleration buffs means exceedingly long lockout time until able to test the patched content. People aren't going to help you test a product they've paid for unless you make it easy and worth their time to do.

 

Having to download the game is already a barrier for some, and for those who have done so, grinding through the game again at an even slower rate is another barrier. At least on live servers you have the population to help accelerate the leveling process, but on the PTS, you're on your own. No FPs, OPs, social points can't be tested properly, class quest problems not being addressed due to people either not there yet or already past it.

 

Character copying to the PTS is a priority if the patches are focusing on the endgame content like it is now. I doubt the PTS will be able to test Legacy content properly at this point with only a few people having their legacy let alone leveled it on the PTS.

 

The SWTOR PTS is not working as intended, this is something that the developers have realized from the last comments they made regarding testing content and are working on the character copying because of it.

[xsmspiffs]

Content isn't being tested to the fullest when there are only a handful of people on it most of the time.

Yes there are 50s, but how often are they there, and what do they actually do?

Just look at the backlash on all the GCD changes up to this point, all completely unnecessary changes that went "unnoticed" on the PTS and went completely ape**** when it went live. There isn't enough people on the PTS to test patch content properly, because there's no incentives for doing so.

 

I'm seeing 5-6 people of extremely different level ranges on the PTS per faction most of the time, that's NOT effective use of PTS.

 

PTS is supposed to catch the bugs missed by the dev teams, provide feedback before the patch moves to live, and overall TEST the content that is being changed throughout the game.

 

In order for this to be effective, you need a viable sample base that's consistently providing feedback at least around the times the patches are implemented. Currently there's no indication of that for the PTS because patch content are focused on endgame or pvp, with no population at high enough level you have no samples to say whether the changes are good or bad and then watch it hit the fans when it moves to the live servers.

 

The current problem with the PTS is the population, concurrent player numbers are stupidly LOW, no experience gain acceleration buffs means exceedingly long lockout time until able to test the patched content. People aren't going to help you test a product they've paid for unless you make it easy and worth their time to do.

 

Having to download the game is already a barrier for some, and for those who have done so, grinding through the game again at an even slower rate is another barrier. At least on live servers you have the population to help accelerate the leveling process, but on the PTS, you're on your own. No FPs, OPs, social points can't be tested properly, class quest problems not being addressed due to people either not there yet or already past it.

 

Character copying to the PTS is a priority if the patches are focusing on the endgame content like it is now. I doubt the PTS will be able to test Legacy content properly at this point with only a few people having their legacy let alone leveled it on the PTS.

 

The SWTOR PTS is not working as intended, this is something that the developers have realized from the last comments they made regarding testing content and are working on the character copying because of it.

 

Well if all of the people complaining about how the PTS is setup would create characters on the PTS rather than complaining that would solve the lack of characters :-)

 

The GCD doesn't require a high level character for people to complain. Personally I like the GCD changes so I didn't complain... even if a number of people were highly active of the PTS it could be the case that they were all fine with the change and it still would have happened. In my eyes, if you want to complain about changes coming from PTS you need to actually be on the PTS.

 

There is a reason why we have a testing channel and guilds on PTS, the help us get organized. The more people on PTS will obviously help with that.

 

And here is the really funny thing - people complain that the game is too easy, that they can level a toon in 4 days. Then they complain that it is too hard to level one on the PTS. Which is it?

[Xandarous]

Well if all of the people complaining about how the PTS is setup would create characters on the PTS rather than complaining that would solve the lack of characters :-)

 

The GCD doesn't require a high level character for people to complain. Personally I like the GCD changes so I didn't complain... even if a number of people were highly active of the PTS it could be the case that they were all fine with the change and it still would have happened. In my eyes, if you want to complain about changes coming from PTS you need to actually be on the PTS.

 

There is a reason why we have a testing channel and guilds on PTS, the help us get organized. The more people on PTS will obviously help with that.

 

And here is the really funny thing - people complain that the game is too easy, that they can level a toon in 4 days. Then they complain that it is too hard to level one on the PTS. Which is it?

 

Sorry, but if you want people to test lvl 50 stuff you need to get character copies in. People will not spend the days it takes to get another 50 on a server that has no impact on their main just to test for bugs when the simple solution is to implement character copies.

 

Stop defending a stupid system and see how important it is to get this rolling.

[xsmspiffs]

Sorry, but if you want people to test lvl 50 stuff you need to get character copies in. People will not spend the days it takes to get another 50 on a server that has no impact on their main just to test for bugs when the simple solution is to implement character copies.

 

Stop defending a stupid system and see how important it is to get this rolling.

 

Sigh... the FACT is that there are 50s on the server. Is that really so hard to understand?

 

Your statement that "People will not spend the days it takes to get another 50 on a server that has no impact on their main just to test for bugs" is demonstrably false, and insulting to people who have taken the time to play on the PTS rather than complain about no character transfer (which, in the sticky at the top of the form, the devs have said is coming).

 

Clearer?

[schwiz]

They don't care about your feedback, I have seen multiple bug reports here in the forums for the PTR and every time the patch is pushed to production anyways.

[xsmspiffs]

They don't care about your feedback, I have seen multiple bug reports here in the forums for the PTR and every time the patch is pushed to production anyways.

 

That does not mean that they don't care etc...

 

1) if it is a bug with a change then, yes it should be fixed (probably)

2) if it is a bug introduced by the change, yes it should be fixed (probably(

3) if it is a bug related to a change, but not actually part of a change, no it won't get fixed (probably)

4) if it is a bug unrelated to a change, nit it won't get fixed (probably).

 

Say feature X is change, but that causes another issue, and the issue it causes is not a high propriety, then, yes, it will probably not be fixed for that patch.

 

Say bug X is fixed and it is ultimately caused by 3 things. The developers know about cause 1 and fix it. While fixing it they find cause 2 and fix that. They miss cause 3 and it is reported in testing. There is a huge QA cycle that goes on behind the scenes that we as players do not see. The fix for cause #3 is in but cannot get thought the test cycle in time for the patch. What are the options? Delay the patch or release the patch with the bug not fully fixed but fix on the way (or, worst case still be figured out).

 

There are a large number of variables in fixing bugs. It is unreasonable to expect quick turn around for any bug for any project in existence. Some bugs will get fixed quickly, some will get fixed slowly. Just the nature of the beast when it comes to writing code.

[fixit]

Why would you bother leveling up another 50 on TC knowing that at some point it will be wiped anyways? Ok, sure it only takes a week or so if you grind super hard but you certainly are not going to get the end game gear to test changes fully; that takes 1 month or more alone.

 

Every single patch has come with a slew of exploits and bugs as a result; this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that their so called internal testers don't actually test.

 

Also what I don't get is why this one guy is actively against TC allowing char transfers and or blinged out lvl 50s so public testers can actually do the job that paid QA is unwilling to do? Are you serious?

 

But as another dude said in this thread: our feedback is not important. They have an agenda and their 'pet' classes. The end.

Edited February 13, 2012 by fixit

[Xandarous]

Sigh... the FACT is that there are 50s on the server. Is that really so hard to understand?

 

Your statement that "People will not spend the days it takes to get another 50 on a server that has no impact on their main just to test for bugs" is demonstrably false, and insulting to people who have taken the time to play on the PTS rather than complain about no character transfer (which, in the sticky at the top of the form, the devs have said is coming).

 

Clearer?

 

Those people have way to much time on their hands. For starters...most critical issues are at lvl 50. Bioware would get a far better range of feedback if people could hop in with their own characters. Defending a terrible system just because some people decided to lvl there is insulting to everyone else who does not have that sort of free time. In fact it is a WASTE of time to lvl just to test lvl changes.

 

I know they plan to implement it, I am just asking for them to do it sooner.

[xsmspiffs]

Why would you bother leveling up another 50 on TC knowing that at some point it will be wiped anyways? Ok, sure it only takes a week or so if you grind super hard but you certainly are not going to get the end game gear to test changes fully; that takes 1 month or more alone.

 

Every single patch has come with a slew of exploits and bugs as a result; this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that their so called internal testers don't actually test.

 

Also what I don't get is why this one guy is actively against TC allowing char transfers and or blinged out lvl 50s so public testers can actually do the job that paid QA is unwilling to do? Are you serious?

 

But as another dude said in this thread: our feedback is not important. They have an agenda and their 'pet' classes. The end.

 

Where on earth do you get the idea that the PTS will be wiped at some point in time? The developers saying that it could be wiped means that if, for some unlikely reason, it is wiped we were all for warned. The odds of the PTS being wiped are pretty low. But at no point has anyone said that a wipe is a guaranteed event.

 

If the one guy is me, I have nothing against transfers, but premades are a terrible idea for a test server in any game (make a preview server that allows for premades, no issue). My bigger issue is that people say "cannot test stuff" or "nobody will test level 50 stuff" when both things are clearly not true (there are people on test and there are 50s on test).

Edited February 13, 2012 by xsmspiffs

[xsmspiffs]

Those people have way to much time on their hands. For starters...most critical issues are at lvl 50. Bioware would get a far better range of feedback if people could hop in with their own characters. Defending a terrible system just because some people decided to lvl there is insulting to everyone else who does not have that sort of free time. In fact it is a WASTE of time to lvl just to test lvl changes.

 

I know they plan to implement it, I am just asking for them to do it sooner.

 

Ummm... I am not defending lack of character transfer. I am all for character transfer. I am pointing out that character transfer is not required to test stuff.

 

Lets see... 100% of my game time is spent on the test server, so what free time are we talking about?

 

Anyways I am pretty sure this is getting off topic...

[cdstephen]

Player feedback is not a priority.

 

^^

 

That is why this game is being ruined.

[Azgrey]

Ummm... I am not defending lack of character transfer. I am all for character transfer. I am pointing out that character transfer is not required to test stuff.

 

Lets see... 100% of my game time is spent on the test server, so what free time are we talking about?

 

Anyways I am pretty sure this is getting off topic...

 

It may not be required to test stuff in a general sense but it would seem it IS required to test stuff in a comprehensive manner. As it stands now there are far too many "issues" getting through to prod servers. So, you who has a an account playing on test, what is the problem in your opinion?

 

I've seen both types of test servers and I have my opinion from seeing how much better patches have been coming off a server that allowed character copy. There is no amount of theory-craft you could throw at me to convince me otherwise. If test is the ghost-town that some of these posts seem to indicate then it's a waste regardless of how fast leveling is. They need to do something to get it populated and it's on Bioware to take care of, not the playerbase.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Azgrey

[Xandarous]

Ummm... I am not defending lack of character transfer. I am all for character transfer. I am pointing out that character transfer is not required to test stuff.

 

Lets see... 100% of my game time is spent on the test server, so what free time are we talking about?

 

Anyways I am pretty sure this is getting off topic...

 

Yes, you are getting off topic and have been arguing for the sake of arguing. the faster they put in character copies, the faster things will be tested period. I know a majority of people will NOT bother lvling up a character to 50. It is not our responsibility to test features at lvl 50 so if any reasonable amount of testing is going to be done, the best way is to reduce the amount in unnecessary work that players need to do. Also, players NOT obligated to test but do it to HELP.

 

You keep saying it is not necessary to have character copies to test things and he option is there is people are willing to do it. We all know this. What I am saying is people want to test lvl 50 changes since THAT is the endgame and most patch changes are things that people at lvl 50 are concerned with.

 

 

It may not be required to test stuff in a general sense but it would seem it IS required to test stuff in a comprehensive manner. As it stands now there are far too many "issues" getting through to prod servers. So, you who has a an account playing on test, what is the problem in your opinion?

 

I've seen both types of test servers and I have my opinion from seeing how much better patches have been coming off a server that allowed character copy. There is no amount of theory-craft you could throw at me to convince me otherwise. If test is the ghost-town that some of these posts seem to indicate then it's a waste regardless of how fast leveling is. They need to do something to get it populated and it's on Bioware to take care of, not the playerbase.

 

This guy nailed it.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Paralassa
content

[JTShadow]

Yes, you are getting off topic and have been arguing for the sake of arguing. the faster they put in character copies, the faster things will be tested period. I know a majority of people will NOT bother lvling up a character to 50. It is not our responsibility to test features at lvl 50 so if any reasonable amount of testing is going to be done, the best way is to reduce the amount in unnecessary work that players need to do. Also, players NOT obligated to test but do it to HELP.

 

You keep saying it is not necessary to have character copies to test things and he option is there is people are willing to do it. We all know this. What I am saying is people want to test lvl 50 changes since THAT is the endgame and most patch changes are things that people at lvl 50 are concerned with.

 

This guy nailed it.

 

Just because you want to be 50 and test things there does not in any way mean there aren't fully capable players and raid guilds already testing the content. There are many people who play on the test server as their main server. They want access to new content the quickest and they get it, they test it, and it comes to the rest of us. Just because you don't want to roll your main there, or roll an alt there to split your time doesn't mean the things aren't being tested.

 

Frankly I'd rather have the people who dedicate all their time on the test server to be testing it. Not some person that thinks it would be fun, still plays their main on a live server but comes over to test just to see how changes are going to affect them and then come cry about it in the forums. If you want to play live, play live. If you want to play test, play test.

 

Testing out the content isn't just something you pop on and do because its fun, or because you have an extra five minutes. Testing the content is a lot of menial repetition, hard work. If you think it would be hard just to level another character and gear it then you aren't ready to face the challenges of actually testing content, you just want to preview it just like many thousands of people do whenever a game has a beta test. How many of those players are actually testing and how many are playing to see if they are interested in purchasing?

Edited February 19, 2012 by Paralassa

[xsmspiffs]

Yes, you are getting off topic and have been arguing for the sake of arguing. the faster they put in character copies, the faster things will be tested period.

 

I agree with that. The reality of the situation is that they don't have character copy yet, and the have said they are working to get it it. So what is the point of complaining that they don't have character copy when they are actively working on it? My issue here is people saying that content CANNOT be tested without character copy. That is patently false.

 

 

You keep saying it is not necessary to have character copies to test things and he option is there is people are willing to do it. We all know this. What I am saying is people want to test lvl 50 changes since THAT is the endgame and most patch changes are things that people at lvl 50 are concerned with.

 

Is it possible to test to 50 without character copy? Yes.

Would more people test if there was character copy? Yes.

Are they working on character copy? They say they are.

Is it necessary to have character copy? No.

Is it desirable to have character copy? Yes.

 

Words have meaning and are important. Statements like "we cannot test without character copy" are false. More people will test if there is character copy is what should be said... and, as they have said, that is coming.

 

So, for the people waiting on character copy you have two choices, you can wait for it, or you can start a character and get leveling while you wait for it. You have a 3rd choice, complain about it.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Paralassa
content quote

[xsmspiffs]

It may not be required to test stuff in a general sense but it would seem it IS required to test stuff in a comprehensive manner. As it stands now there are far too many "issues" getting through to prod servers. So, you who has a an account playing on test, what is the problem in your opinion?

 

I've seen both types of test servers and I have my opinion from seeing how much better patches have been coming off a server that allowed character copy. There is no amount of theory-craft you could throw at me to convince me otherwise. If test is the ghost-town that some of these posts seem to indicate then it's a waste regardless of how fast leveling is. They need to do something to get it populated and it's on Bioware to take care of, not the playerbase.

 

The problem is that there are too few people on the PTS. The solution is to get more players on to the PTS. I never said "no" to character transfer (though, in a perfect world it would not be needed). I said no to premades because, IMO, it will screw up the test server.

 

I have played other MMOs where there has been a community of players on the test server, that has gone well... without the need for character transfer, and absolutely no need of premades.

 

Also, the people playing on the PTS are not all at 50. It takes time when that is the way to level, so, yes, things will be untested, clearly. Over time that is less and less of an issue. On the other hand if only a small percentage of the playerbase will play on the PTS (as main, or just on a partially regular basis), then, yeah, things will go untested.

 

Here is one thing I don't get... people saying they won't test on the PTS without some way of getting to level 50 immediately (character transfer or premades) and then, at the same time, saying that they are not paying to test. Well if you are not willing to test because youa re not being paid to do it then how much real testing are you going to do when you have the way to immediately get to 50?

[Azgrey]

Just because you want to be 50 and test things there does not in any way mean there aren't fully capable players and raid guilds already testing the content. There are many people who play on the test server as their main server. They want access to new content the quickest and they get it, they test it, and it comes to the rest of us. Just because you don't want to roll your main there, or roll an alt there to split your time doesn't mean the things aren't being tested.

 

Frankly I'd rather have the people who dedicate all their time on the test server to be testing it. Not some person that thinks it would be fun, still plays their main on a live server but comes over to test just to see how changes are going to affect them and then come cry about it in the forums. If you want to play live, play live. If you want to play test, play test.

 

Testing out the content isn't just something you pop on and do because its fun, or because you have an extra five minutes. Testing the content is a lot of menial repetition, hard work. If you think it would be hard just to level another character and gear it then you aren't ready to face the challenges of actually testing content, you just want to preview it just like many thousands of people do whenever a game has a beta test. How many of those players are actually testing and how many are playing to see if they are interested in purchasing?

 

Then please, for my own benefit, explain to me why so many "oh crap's" are making it to prod? Is the guy that posted a little below this one lying when he says that test is a ghost-town? If he's not lying how is any end game content getting a legitimate level of testing? At some point we have to be realistic here and come to grips with the fact that the majority of people are not going to leave their guilds to roll up a fifty on test or they would have already done it. Testing a lot of this end game content needs 4-8-16 people to do correctly, on both factions.....and that doesn't seem to be the case. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

A test server is used to flesh out code and make the game better and in that case it will always be a benefit to have the largest amount of eyes and hands on it you can manage. It's just common sense. So while I'll agree with some of your points I have to say the proof is in the pudding. Too many patches breaking too many things for me to think the status quo should stay.

[Azgrey]

The problem is that there are too few people on the PTS. The solution is to get more players on to the PTS. I never said "no" to character transfer (though, in a perfect world it would not be needed). I said no to premades because, IMO, it will screw up the test server.

 

I have played other MMOs where there has been a community of players on the test server, that has gone well... without the need for character transfer, and absolutely no need of premades.

 

Also, the people playing on the PTS are not all at 50. It takes time when that is the way to level, so, yes, things will be untested, clearly. Over time that is less and less of an issue. On the other hand if only a small percentage of the playerbase will play on the PTS (as main, or just on a partially regular basis), then, yeah, things will go untested.

 

Here is one thing I don't get... people saying they won't test on the PTS without some way of getting to level 50 immediately (character transfer or premades) and then, at the same time, saying that they are not paying to test. Well if you are not willing to test because youa re not being paid to do it then how much real testing are you going to do when you have the way to immediately get to 50?

 

Listen, I get it, you want Test to be a community like it was on DAOC or EQ. My point is if that was going to unfold that way there wouldn't be posts about no one being on test right now. You seem to gloss over the fact that low population does not allow content to be fully tested by thinking that it may change later. I'm on the other side of the coin. As this is not DAOC or early EQ test, each patch that comes out causing more issues is just one more nail in the coffin as people's level of patience is not the same as the earlier days. In today's market you better have it right and polished to a pretty high degree or you will get taken to task by your playerbase. Just the way it is.

 

As to your last point I've always thought people who make these arguments are slighting the issue at hand. On test servers I've experienced that allowed character copy/premades the hardcore players will venture over for every roll out. They will play every opposition class to get a feel for their skills. They will run/rerun every PvE encounter to get strats down. All in all they will usually provide more actual testing than your standard run of the mill player.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Azgrey

[Xandarous]

I agree with that. The reality of the situation is that they don't have character copy yet, and the have said they are working to get it it. So what is the point of complaining that they don't have character copy when they are actively working on it? My issue here is people saying that content CANNOT be tested without character copy. That is patently false.

 

For starters, why are you even arguing with me. My post simply was a nudge post. All your responses have been over an off topic concept and you are just basically acting no better than half the trolls on these boards.

 

People like you do not help the problems at all, and considering the way you post could very well be part of the problem. A decent and intelligent person would have stopped posting after seeing they were not arguing on topic and that the other party already knew what they were saying.

 

Is it possible to test to 50 without character copy? Yes.

Would more people test if there was character copy? Yes.

Are they working on character copy? They say they are.

Is it necessary to have character copy? No.

Is it desirable to have character copy? Yes.

 

This is all information we KNOW. You keep repeating this over and over again and WE KNOW. My post was NOT made out of lack of knowledge. It was made to reiterate why getting in character copies more quickly would benefit the test server.

 

You arguing with me about all this is really stupid. There is a difference between things being impossible and unreasonable and that is and has been my point from the get go. Any intelligent person would have seen that and stopped arguing off point.

[xsmspiffs]

For starters, why are you even arguing with me. My post simply was a nudge post.

 

I argued with you on your premise... that there are no 50s on the test server, and that the only way to get people to test is via character copy.

 

Everyone has been told, by the devs, in more than one place, that character copy is coming. The most recent one that comes to mind was on the 8th, about 3 days before you made your post.

 

Here, perhaps this will lighten the mood: http://xkcd.com/386/.

[Xandarous]

I argued with you on your premise... that there are no 50s on the test server, and that the only way to get people to test is via character copy.

 

Everyone has been told, by the devs, in more than one place, that character copy is coming. The most recent one that comes to mind was on the 8th, about 3 days before you made your post.

 

Here, perhaps this will lighten the mood: http://xkcd.com/386/.

 

Again you failed to see my premise. I never said there were NO 50s. You keep posting as if I do not know these things. The recent changes to surge would require WEEKS just to test if I or anyone else had to start from scratch. That is what irked me and why I made the post I did.

 

Your disruption was not necessary and detracting from the point. Stop trolling.