Jurugar Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Wondering if anyone with experience on both sides of the coin can give me a little insight. How many "target dummy" moves does each sentinel spec have (i.e. moves you would use on a boss level target dummy to test your single target dps rotation)? Not including CDs - dont count any attack with a cooldown of 1 minute and up. There seems to be a lot of QQ about sentinels being really hard to play, but they dont have an easier spec to fall back on should they fail at the tough rotation; if a shadow cant master balance, he can always swap back to the much simpler infiltration spec, whereas from what I've heard watchman and combat seem to be of comparable difficulty. The balance shadow has 9 that are all rotated and used consistently: saber strike, double strike, project, shadow strike, force breach, spinning strike, force in balance, mind crush, and sever force (+CDs). Again, only count target dummy moves - no stuns, snares, AOEs, knockbacks, interrupts, etc (unless of course you would consistently use them against a boss for their damage output ONLY). If the sentinel has an execute ability, you can count that too. Edited February 12, 2012 by Jurugar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillabaa Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) I can confirm that balance/madness is extremely difficult to play but quite rewarding when done correctly. My biggest issue with it was its significant lacking in pvp viability compared to infil, combined with its weakness for solo pve when compared again to combat technique+pvp infil spec. It seems to only be superior to infil for boss fights however I consistantly perform well in operations with 0/31/10 so I have absolutely no burning desire to change back. Also balance is getting a solid nerf next patch with the circling shadows change. As far as I can deduce the main reason balance is > infil right now is that infil dps relies on a lot of melee attacks and abilities whereas balance is based around force abilities for the majority of its damage, negating the huge reliance that pve infil has on accuracy being high to reduce avoidance, a factor that does not affect balance anywhere near as greatly due to its lower reliance on negating avoidance. I don't really play my sent anymore as ability delay+lag is more painful on him than any other class I have played,however sent is not easy to play by any means. I would probably say that the bal shadow is harder to play because of the annoying clicking required for force in balance. I would love the option to have it center on your current target by default and be repositionable with no target selected. Edited February 12, 2012 by sillabaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Annihilation Spec has about 12 attacks you use on a regular basis. Two are AoEs. The rest are part of the regular rotation and are used at least once per 20-30 seconds. We have a few more situational attacks, some cooldowns, etc. but you asked for only 1m> attacks. Edit: There is also some theorycraft that speculates that using Force Choke(50s talented CD) as part of our rotation is a slight DPS increase so if that actually ends up being true(Haven't seen math that 100% proves it for Annihilation spec) then thst's 11 attacks that are part of the main rotation. We have two resource systems to track: Rage(Fuels our main attacks) and Fury(Fuels our utility and Berserk). I'd say rage is one of the most complicated resource systems since you need to plan our your rage gains/uses 3-4 GCDs ahead to maximize your damage. It's also the only resource that doesn't regenerate on it's own. We have a 3x Stacking DoT and another non-stacking DoT to keep track of. We also have a 3x Stacking buff that needs to be maintained by using an Annihilation(requires 5/12 rage to use) within a 1-3 GCDs(Depends on stacks of buff, it lowers the CD) of it going off cooldown. Here's a pre-"buff"(1.1.2 was a nerf for us but they called it a buff) patch set of DPS tests I did. The older 5 were much different than the newer 5 because I was managing my rage in a slightly different fashion each time to see what would yield the best result. The newer 5 were extremely close because I basically did the same thing every time. The actual video timer is faster than in-game time so I used the companion mission timer in the corner to calculate DPS by dividing the health of the mob by the number of seconds it took to kill it. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4A02FA5847B90264 From my view it seems that Bioware granted the two Pure DPS ACs utility through Ballistic Shield and Bloodthirst but made them more difficult to play than any of the others(Tracer Missile anyone?). Nothing is "hard" in the game right now but speaking in relative terms I'd say Marauders probably have the highest skill cap due to being melee, having a lot of ability bloat, and having a dynamic resource system that needs to be managed far more than any others. Comparing them just to Shadow/Madness Assassins I wouldn't know completely but from the PoVs I've seen they're sort of like WoW Rogues in that they don't really have to manage their resources and from what I've seen about their rotation on sithwarrior.com they don't really have to manage all that much. Edited February 14, 2012 by Tumri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurugar Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 We have two resource systems to track: Rage(Fuels our main attacks) and Fury(Fuels our utility and Berserk). I'd say rage is one of the most complicated resource systems since you need to plan our your rage gains/uses 3-4 GCDs ahead to maximize your damage. It's also the only resource that doesn't regenerate on it's own. While not having rage regen on its own might make it seem inherently harder, you are also in full control of it - at any given time, you can 100% plan out how much rage you have, how much you can get and therefore how much you can use. A balance shadow (or at least a properly specced one aka x/x/31) has no force generation moves to speak of and is very reliant on several different (controlled) procs to manage the ebb and flow of force usage. I'm not sure how fury/centering works - do you get a set amount each time you use a rage-consuming ability? It seems less like a resource and more like an effect condition for those 1-2 moves that use it. The balance shadow has 3 dots, 2 procs (including 1 backstab, which requires positioning conditions), a self damage buff to keep refreshed (our highest force cost ability by far), and an aoe ability at the core of our build that requires you to manually aim and click during the heat of battle - every 15 seconds. Now take all that and throw it on a real boss fight, where we're basically clothies standing in melee range, with a gap closer at twice the CD of yours (and a slower one at that) which, if I'm not mistaken, you would be using anyway to generate rage, with half as many defensive cooldowns (we have one for physical and one for force/tech) and a threat drop on a ridiculous 3 minute cooldown. Not to say I necessarily think balance shadow is harder; I just wanted to put both sides out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toogeloo Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Neither... Dirty Fighting Scoundrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) While not having rage regen on its own might make it seem inherently harder, you are also in full control of it - at any given time, you can 100% plan out how much rage you have, how much you can get and therefore how much you can use. A balance shadow (or at least a properly specced one aka x/x/31) has no force generation moves to speak of and is very reliant on several different (controlled) procs to manage the ebb and flow of force usage. I'm not sure how fury/centering works - do you get a set amount each time you use a rage-consuming ability? It seems less like a resource and more like an effect condition for those 1-2 moves that use it. The balance shadow has 3 dots, 2 procs (including 1 backstab, which requires positioning conditions), a self damage buff to keep refreshed (our highest force cost ability by far), and an aoe ability at the core of our build that requires you to manually aim and click during the heat of battle - every 15 seconds. Now take all that and throw it on a real boss fight, where we're basically clothies standing in melee range, with a gap closer at twice the CD of yours (and a slower one at that) which, if I'm not mistaken, you would be using anyway to generate rage, with half as many defensive cooldowns (we have one for physical and one for force/tech) and a threat drop on a ridiculous 3 minute cooldown. Not to say I necessarily think balance shadow is harder; I just wanted to put both sides out there. Right but your energy gain is entire passive. You don't need to perform X action to gain X resource. It's just gained passively. It's a carbon copy of the energy system from Rogues in WoW and their resource system was one of the easiest to manage in the game. We also have random rage gains from DoT ticks and as a result we randomly gain 1 rage in a GCD. This forces us to maintain below 11 rage while planning out enough to use your CD abilities. It's a very restrictive resource system and it forces you to rethink your next few GCDs every single time you get a proc. The manual aim-click also doesn't seem very difficult from playing my sorc a bit. Your gap closer is also extremely good for a lot of situations while ours is normally on cooldown from being used in the rotation anyways. A force charge can't normally help you avoid damage or move to a location quickly, it's only for getting to targetable enemies. Backstab isn't really a disadvantage since melee should be standing behind a boss regardless. As far as Procs Annihilation has one DoT proc that can come from two of our main heavy hitter abilities. The proc has an ICD of 6 seconds to keep track of so you aren't spamming your rage-spending Vicious Slash or using Annihilate before it has a chance to proc and so you don't fish for a proc too soon after putting up a rupture(they don't stack, the DoT lasts 6s and the regular CD is 15 but fishing for procs appropriately gives it much higher up time). Fury/Centering is more like a long-term stacking proc I suppose. It's something you should try to plan out with rage though. You want to hit 30 fury around the time that you can put up Deadly Saber and stack it three times and put up Rupture in the process. The goal is to have 3-stack deadly saber and rupture ticks auto crit and burn the berserk buff as fast as possible while making sure that the insta-crits aren't wasted on weak DoTs. Edited February 12, 2012 by Tumri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyx Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) I think the above discussion is great in the comparison. Currently playing both, though they are in the leveling process (30-ish), playing both at the same time gives me a back to back comparison, often multiple times in a single day. My comparison thought isn't as detailed as what they are discussing above, but is how each class feels overall (and, in such, is subjective. take it for what it is). overall my Shadow Consular (SC) feels more forgiving in their rotation. To exact great DPS certainly takes work, but it is not quinessential. procs are based on chance, so you often have to simply pay attention to them and react. My Sentinel (and, on reflection, my Maurader and Jugg, since the Jugg shares many similar mechanics) feels like it takes much more proactive tactical planniing. the Rage generation is in my control, but effective DPS requires optimizing that generation with expenditure. I could walk around all day long with a full rage bar (on some days when im just randomly killing mobs and gathering I do), but im losing DPS by this. If i burst too many of my costly skills, I am low, and replenishing my rage cuts back on the DPS gain I just made with my rapid burst. On another note, My SC (I run solely balance) has more control over the fight. with a 1m CC (from stealth), and a guaranteed stun every 6 seconds or so, in addition to a 30m range 8 sec stun, I feel that i have more control in situations where things may go dire. And the SC is blessed with one of my favorite WoW-rogue abilities....his vanish! get out of jail free. My Maurader/jugg only gets out of jail free when he makes odd croaking sounds and falls to the ground twitching. My SC's energy resource also feels more adaptable. I can't control it, but I also don't have to sacrifice damaging moves to retain it. but yet, I have to choose my skills and meter them out to not spend it all in one place our energy regen is steady, but not rapid...if you drain your self, you have many precious seconds in a fight to wait, spamming your wet noodle attack before getting enough energy back to be of any use. Now to the crux of the situation. the maurader/jugg has less emergency skills, and due to them not getting a healer right off the bat (yeah, neither does the SC, but he at least gets a tank companion that holds aggro like a champ), they feel quite squishy early on. But the simple ability to jump into a fight (fantastic leap animation btw! ) and simply SMASH face is a simplistic process that provides me with endless glee. It's sorta silly actually...I never get tired of it. i enjoy my SC, but the difference is... SC = pelt them with rocks JS = jump at them, slam them to the ground, pound them into oblivion with lightsaber, and impale them with same said lightsaber from a head down spin. go hit a mob 3x with a JK/Jugg slash skill...you really feel like your pounding them into the ground now given...the SC gets his kick at 32 or so that is pretty dang cool too...spinning wheel thingy of death. and the spinning strike is pretty neat too. very polished and dynamic moves that look great. ...but my jugg just looks so raw pounding his victim into the turf....You should try out the sith side to see the full effect. it's very cool. Edit: all that, and not sure I answered your question. Sentinel/maurader is harder to play, but more viscerally rewarding. Edited February 12, 2012 by Elyx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saminaobx Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Annihilation Spec has about 12 attacks you use on a regular basis. Two are AoEs. Stopped reading Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) Stopped reading I meant that in a raid setting we have 12 abilities we'll be using as part of our rotation at some point. Two of them are Sweeping Slash and Smash, which are used in AoE phases such as when Karagga spawns exploding mouse droids. No need to be so overly judgemental without even reading the whole thing. I even included a video. Edited February 13, 2012 by Tumri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raelimar Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) *spits coffee all over the monitor* In no way, shape, or form is Balance/Madness harder than a Sentinel/Marauder of any spec, let alone Combat or Focus. <---plays Madness. Don't play a Marauder, but one of the players in my four man does, and I see how many abilities she uses in a fight. Inquisitors/Consulars are just faceroll...so much utility. Edited February 13, 2012 by raelimar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurugar Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 *spits coffee all over the monitor* In no way, shape, or form is Balance/Madness harder than a Sentinel/Marauder of any spec, let alone Combat or Focus. <---plays Madness. Don't play a Marauder, but one of the players in my four man does, and I see how many abilities she uses in a fight. Inquisitors/Consulars are just faceroll...so much utility. I believe the coffee spittle on your monitor covered up the "shadow" part of the thread title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillabaa Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Well it appears he does play an assassin which does = shadow so I'm not really sure what your point is here. Placing force in balance/death field is a fin pain at times and although sents are hard to play a bal shadow does have a significant amount of dots and procs to watch. However as I already said at the start of this thread, the changes to circling shadows( the 50% cost reduction on project after using doublestrike/Clairstrike twice), it now requires you to be in shadow technique, and being in st causes your force breach to no longer be a dot so that is not a viable option, unfortunately this almost entirely takes project out of the madness dps rotation since for pure dps, without a proc it is rated below telekinetic throw on the basic dps rotation here:http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-May-The-Force-Be-With-You-managing-the-Sith-Assassin-s-Jedi-Shadow-s-resources?pid=7048#pid7048 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfolne Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Hard to play and MMOs don't go well together. It's not rocket science, kids. Watching procs/dots and such can be mildly challenging for a short while, but the real challenge in MMOs is teamwork, both in PvE and PvP. Playing any class to 90-95% of capacity isn't hard, and that's about as far as most players will ever get. That said, balance shadow isn't hard (by MMO standards) just tedious and mildly annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindwormbified Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Hard to play and MMOs don't go well together. It's not rocket science, kids. Watching procs/dots and such can be mildly challenging for a short while, but the real challenge in MMOs is teamwork, both in PvE and PvP. Playing any class to 90-95% of capacity isn't hard, and that's about as far as most players will ever get. That said, balance shadow isn't hard (by MMO standards) just tedious and mildly annoying. So true... I'm getting tired of seeing all those proplayahs everywhere that feel constant urge to shout how extremely complicated their class is, just for the sake of it. Marauders should be censored so threads about them won't lure " I have 2 nagas I use at the same time with 60 keybinds!" people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) I agree neither are truly difficult. Old school Mario was truly difficult. Limited lives and an enormous number of paces to die at. The question was which was harder though. It's a comparative difficulty discussion instead of a discussion on if either is hard in the grand scale of gaming. Edited February 13, 2012 by Tumri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vektarulz Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I have a 50 marauder annil spec and leveling a sent in the rage equavlient spec (forgot name used to marauder XD) I dont think its by any means a under powered class but considering how many moves we actually need to use (10-12 depending on the lass we fight) and considering how situational some moves in the rotation are i find it a class much harder to play early in the game Late game in 50 pvp ive noticed that you can completely decimate healers/sorc/sage and channel based Bh's and troopers with our wide array of interrupts but good ranged dps if they can get us low before we get to them become a problem,i think that's how its meant to be however this game doesn't seem to have a rock paper scissors system and this is only the case in a 1v1 fight of course a sorc/inquis should kill any marauder if they get the jump on them and the sent/marauder blew some of his essential cd's a few moments before as for assassins/shadows early pvp is a lil easier with a shadow you got your invis,escapiblity and a nice burst rotation sents and marauders pvp wise are snow ball class it starts out fairly weak but blossoms into a wall of death leveling pve wise i heard dps assassins have trouble if you dont gear companions right but i hear the tanks steamroll it so no comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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