Easy fix to make juggs more useful in PvP and PvE

[eighteenistoold]

Rage:

Make it so that force choke no longer buffs the damage of smash via shockwave. Reduce Force Crush cooldown to 10 seconds, Increase its rage cost to 5, and increase obliterate rage cost to 5 (enable obliterate to also be effected by gravity). This enables the warrior to constantly have smash critting like a truck while balancing their damage by making them spend more time on rage builders so they can truly be a spike damage class.

 

Vengeance:

Draining Scream and Eviscerate no longer deal static damage but instead deal 30% of the damage of their corresponding ability over 6 seconds. Allow force charge to have its cooldown have a 30% chance to reset with each tick of the Shatter DoT. Unstoppable no longer gives us immunity to knockbacks. This allows juggernauts to have enhanced damage and make them much harder to kite (because lets face it, if we are out of 10 meters we are sitting ducks until force charge is off cooldown).

 

Immortal:

Have a talent that causes retaliation to reset the cooldown on smash. Have Soresu form reduce all damage done by 10% to make up for this change.

 

Edit: Also stop forch push from resetting the cooldown on force charge, absolutely moronic mechanic designed for rage generation and not utility.

Edited February 12, 2012 by eighteenistoold

[eighteenistoold]

Before viewers question my reasoning that juggs are not up to par, i have a 50 sin, 35 operative, 22 sniper, 26 sage, 25 powertech, 35 jugg, 21 mercenary, and a 12 marauder (doesn't really count). I have pvp'd extensively and have done some pve on the side on most of the characters. I have found juggernaut to be the most difficult class to play (simply due to low damage, low mobility, and few situational survival abilities.

[Oldbuster]

Vengeance:

Unstoppable no longer gives us immunity to knockbacks. This allows juggernauts to have enhanced damage and make them much harder to kite (because lets face it, if we are out of 10 meters we are sitting ducks until force charge is off cooldown).

 

So those Tanks who use the 14/27 hybrid build are now without one of the defining moves that allow them to immediately start generating threat?

 

Immortal:

Have a talent that causes retaliation to reset the cooldown on smash. Have Soresu form reduce all damage done by 10% to make up for this change.

 

Edit: Also stop forch push from resetting the cooldown on force charge, absolutely moronic mechanic designed for rage generation and not utility.

 

So you wish for Juggernaut 31/10 immortal build to generate less threat as well?

And you want us to stop force pushing a mob off a party member and then force charging the mob to attack it?

 

It appears Sir, a clue just passed you by. Please run and catch it, so you may have one all of your very own!

[JohnAntilles]

I have got to say... these are some of the worst suggestions I have read for changing a class around EVER. You completely GUT the trees!

 

- Make it so Unstoppable doesn't make you immune to movement imparing effects

- Force Choke no longer builds Shockwave

- Obliterate and Force Crush now cost 5! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!

- Force push no longer resets force charge.

 

What? Really dude?

 

Please, please don't ever do this again...

[Demanoth]

Oh the shame

[havok_bloodcraft]

Rage:

Make it so that force choke no longer buffs the damage of smash via shockwave. Reduce Force Crush cooldown to 10 seconds, Increase its rage cost to 5, and increase obliterate rage cost to 5 (enable obliterate to also be effected by gravity). This enables the warrior to constantly have smash critting like a truck while balancing their damage by making them spend more time on rage builders so they can truly be a spike damage class.

 

Vengeance:

Draining Scream and Eviscerate no longer deal static damage but instead deal 30% of the damage of their corresponding ability over 6 seconds. Allow force charge to have its cooldown have a 30% chance to reset with each tick of the Shatter DoT. Unstoppable no longer gives us immunity to knockbacks. This allows juggernauts to have enhanced damage and make them much harder to kite (because lets face it, if we are out of 10 meters we are sitting ducks until force charge is off cooldown).

 

Immortal:

Have a talent that causes retaliation to reset the cooldown on smash. Have Soresu form reduce all damage done by 10% to make up for this change.

 

Edit: Also stop forch push from resetting the cooldown on force charge, absolutely moronic mechanic designed for rage generation and not utility.

 

a quick note if you think unstoppable stops knockback go to red reaper and charge on of those elite droids.....I'll wait......see how it halted you and threw you back like a ragdoll despite unstoppable being active and understood to prevent this exact thing. there is no knockback resist or immunity in vengeance. I know I had regular mobs play hacky sack with me on ilum.

[Samurro]

No sir, thanks....stupid immortal suggestions btw...

[LovarBoy]

* Increase the damage of the bleedings caused by Impale and Force Scream.

 

* Make Rampage usable while moving.

 

* Give Vengeance a surge-talent that increases the critical damage of the DoT's and Impale / Force Scream by ~ 30-50% ( the only dd tree where something like that is missing... lol )

 

 

 

They just have to do these 3 things and everything would be fine.

[AllanGand]

I'll take the 10% damage reduction in immortal (for pvp only), if they also add a 20-30% damage reduction for all incoming damage, so we don't get wrecked by all the tech/force attacks (again pvp only) Edited February 12, 2012 by AllanGand

[Kyllum]

stupid thread

[Ptrain]

Why take shockwave out of force choke? That is the dumbest thing i have heard

[eighteenistoold]

So those Tanks who use the 14/27 hybrid build are now without one of the defining moves that allow them to immediately start generating threat?

 

 

 

So you wish for Juggernaut 31/10 immortal build to generate less threat as well?

And you want us to stop force pushing a mob off a party member and then force charging the mob to attack it?

 

It appears Sir, a clue just passed you by. Please run and catch it, so you may have one all of your very own!

 

Since when did immunity to knockbacks directly cause you to generate threat?

 

The 10% reduced damage to soresu form is to balance out that you will be able to use smash more often, this is a fix to the juggernaut AoE threat issue. Additionally, force push is meant to be used as a "peel" much like the death knights death grip from WoW. Many juggernauts use force push as a damage dealer and an excuse to force charge again. Before force push reset the cooldown of Force Charge, no one would have used force push on the target they are attacking.

[eighteenistoold]

I have got to say... these are some of the worst suggestions I have read for changing a class around EVER. You completely GUT the trees!

 

- Make it so Unstoppable doesn't make you immune to movement imparing effects

- Force Choke no longer builds Shockwave

- Obliterate and Force Crush now cost 5! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!

- Force push no longer resets force charge.

 

What? Really dude?

 

Please, please don't ever do this again...

 

My fix to unstoppable is only for knockbacks.... still immune to stuns and slows, this implementation is to balance the change that shatter DoT resets the cooldown on Force Charge.

 

Force choke shouldn't be used to deal damage, it needs to be used as a CC at an opportune time, it is unfair that for a rage warrior to deal maximum damage that they have to waste their only stun that doesn't break on damage. Also if you read the entire post, force crush cooldown is reduced to 10 seconds so that you can still get the smash buff every time smash is off CD.

 

Obliterate and Force Crush cost 4 with gravity, as stated in the entire post. This is to balance out the fact that u can now cast a very powerful dot every 10 seconds, this causes you to spend 10 rage just to have a ramped up Smash that hits for over 3k easily. The purpose of this is to balance out rage dps as a 10 second wonder class, after smash you damage should rightfully be reduced to lots of small hits. Trust me, being able to cast force crush every 10 seconds is a HUGE damage buff.

 

Force push should have never reset the cooldown on force charge, this mechanic encourages players to use a very valuable move to generate more force (force push is godly for leaping up to the ledge where all the ranged hangs out and pushing the snipers off the ledge) this change is balanced in vengeance due to the dot resetting force charge, and is balanced in rage by allowing you to constantly be casting a slowing effect. I guess to balance rage even further we could increase the range of force crush to 15/20/ or 30 meters.

[eighteenistoold]

a quick note if you think unstoppable stops knockback go to red reaper and charge on of those elite droids.....I'll wait......see how it halted you and threw you back like a ragdoll despite unstoppable being active and understood to prevent this exact thing. there is no knockback resist or immunity in vengeance. I know I had regular mobs play hacky sack with me on ilum.

 

I constantly am unaffected by every single knockback in PvP, perhaps the mobs you were fighting had a specific purpose to ignoring that mechanic? all i know is i was pvping like mad yesterday and constantly ignored knockbacks for the first 4 seconds, you should probably take that issue up with a GM.

[eighteenistoold]

No sir, thanks....stupid immortal suggestions btw...

 

Talk to anyone who has seen all 3 tanks perform, they will all tell you juggernaut AoE threat is a serious issue, this is a fix that would allow you to be able to use smash every 6 seconds, the damage reduction to soresu form is to balance out singe target damage due to the ability to use smash a lot more often (because smash is a fairly hard hitting move).

[eighteenistoold]

* Increase the damage of the bleedings caused by Impale and Force Scream.

 

* Make Rampage usable while moving.

 

* Give Vengeance a surge-talent that increases the critical damage of the DoT's and Impale / Force Scream by ~ 30-50% ( the only dd tree where something like that is missing... lol )

 

 

 

They just have to do these 3 things and everything would be fine.

 

I appreciate your mature response, but i do have to argue with some of your points. I believe bioware designed juggernauts to have simmilar damage to the operative where (ignoring hiden blade) they hit for low amounts, but constant hit for that much. I do not think they ever wanted vengeance juggernauts to be popping 4k crits, leave that to snipers.

 

Ravage should remain a rooted ability, it is a very destructive move that can deal up to 4k damage if you get the full effect off and it crits, it is also free and can be used every 9-15 seconds when talented in the vengeance tree. Additionally, ravage deals half of its damage in less than a second, giving you a free 1400 damage before anyone can interrupt you.

 

Increasing the critical damage of only our DoT abilities does seem like a reasonable idea though, however, imale and force scream should not be affected by that.

[eighteenistoold]

I'll take the 10% damage reduction in immortal (for pvp only), if they also add a 20-30% damage reduction for all incoming damage, so we don't get wrecked by all the tech/force attacks (again pvp only)

 

I agree, but they cannot simply give us a static 20% damage reduction, perhaps a shorter cooldown on Invincible? Or maybe a talent that causes each use of retaliation to also reduce the cooldown of saber ward and invincible by 6 seconds or something?

[eighteenistoold]

stupid thread

 

Simply because i try to respond to everyone, why?

[eighteenistoold]

Why take shockwave out of force choke? That is the dumbest thing i have heard

 

Because force crush would be reduced to a 10 second cool down... read the entire paragraph on the Rage fixes. The main reason i want to remove force choke from shockwave is that a lot of rage juggernauts now use force choke as a damage dealing move like ravage, force choke has a stun effect for a reason... it's meant to be a stun. THe reason force choke does damage in the first place is because it is a channeled stun, therefor not having it do damage makes it a horrible mechanic that could only be used when having at least one other teammate on the same mob.

[eighteenistoold]

Lastly, now that i have responded to everyones rage suggestions, these suggestions are all revolving aroudn the idea that they ALL are implemented. These balances are made to ensure the class gets the power it needs but also retains some weaknesses to ensure balance in PvP and PvE.

 

I believe 2 people were wondering why force push should no longer reset the cooldown on force charge. As i responded, force push should not be an ability to enable extra rage generation, it should be used at opportune times. As vengeance being the most reliant on being in melee range, it would make sense that force push shouldn't be used unless for dire situations like interrupting a rage juggernauts ravage. This fix to this is having the shatter DoT reset the cooldown on force charge this would reset the cooldown on force charge AT LEAST every 12 seconds, if you're lucky it could get reset off the first tick. As for rage juggernauts, you have obliterate to clase a small gap (10m) already, if force crush's range could be increased to 20 meters or something you would be able to slow them enough to get in range for an obliterate, it seems reasonable that you should not be able to reset force charge the same way a vengeance juggernaut can.

 

So before more people respond, read each paragraph assuming every single change will be implemented, i wrote it in paragraph and not bullet not form for a reason.

[havok_bloodcraft]

vengeance could be seriosly helped just by bleeds scaling with power like all other abilities do impale bleed damage should not be 68 per tick when at the same level and gearing shatter and force choke are doing 400-800 per tick

[Banivisa]

Honestly unless you've played the class to 50 just don't suggest idea's because your proposed changes to Immortal are a nerf and far to complicated then what needs to happen.

 

I've played Immoratal to 50 and I wouldn't have any idea of how to work on Rage or Vengence.

 

AoE threat can be addressed very simply by adding high threat value to saber throw and sweeping slash and then moving sweeping slash lower into the levels so you aquire it sooner. Also needs it's rage cost reduced by 1. Why on earth everyone wants to fix smash when there isn't anything wrong with it is beyond me. Oh! it's because they haven't played the class all the way through yet.

 

Immortal also has more issues then just aoe threat that need attention for PvP and PvE but I'm not going to address that here. IF you played one through the entire game you would know this though.

 

Immortal has some issues but your "fixes" just break it farther. So to summarize play the class first before you try to fix it!

[eighteenistoold]

Honestly unless you've played the class to 50 just don't suggest idea's because your proposed changes to Immortal are a nerf and far to complicated then what needs to happen.

 

I've played Immoratal to 50 and I wouldn't have any idea of how to work on Rage or Vengence.

 

AoE threat can be addressed very simply by adding high threat value to saber throw and sweeping slash and then moving sweeping slash lower into the levels so you aquire it sooner. Also needs it's rage cost reduced by 1. Why on earth everyone wants to fix smash when there isn't anything wrong with it is beyond me. Oh! it's because they haven't played the class all the way through yet.

 

Immortal also has more issues then just aoe threat that need attention for PvP and PvE but I'm not going to address that here. IF you played one through the entire game you would know this though.

 

Immortal has some issues but your "fixes" just break it farther. So to summarize play the class first before you try to fix it!

 

Cone attacks are harder to get off and require a lot of tedious movement, no other tanking class is required to use a cone to generate threat. Circular AoE's have a wider spread making it easier to hit more people with it. Why should an ability on a 30 second cooldown generate massive amounts of threat? it's not even an aoe, and single target threat is not an issue, i know this i've done flashpoints with jugg tanks at 50 (on my sin). Worst comes to worst we just let the tank have 2 gcd's before we start dps.

 

I do not need to play the class to 50 to understand the flaws, i have played enough mmo's to identify what and why thing's are an issue.

 

By having retaliation reset the cooldown on smash you could get your AoE threat earlier on, hell, you could slap it onto Quake... then you'd have it at level 12!

 

Also, how is my fix complicated? its simply a damage reduction to balance out the aoe damage buff.... It's a lot simpler than lower the cost of an ability, increasing the threat of one, and decreasing the level in which you acquire an ability. 2 < 3 .... Occam's razor amirite?

[eighteenistoold]

vengeance could be seriosly helped just by bleeds scaling with power like all other abilities do impale bleed damage should not be 68 per tick when at the same level and gearing shatter and force choke are doing 400-800 per tick

 

I agree, best way in my opinion is to have the bleeds scale off the abilities damage. Perhaps 30% is a little high, but the general consensus is that Jugg dps is low already, so this change would be good.

[PunkKid]

Rage:

Make it so that force choke no longer buffs the damage of smash via shockwave. Reduce Force Crush cooldown to 10 seconds, Increase its rage cost to 5, and increase obliterate rage cost to 5 (enable obliterate to also be effected by gravity). This enables the warrior to constantly have smash critting like a truck while balancing their damage by making them spend more time on rage builders so they can truly be a spike damage class.

 

Vengeance:

Draining Scream and Eviscerate no longer deal static damage but instead deal 30% of the damage of their corresponding ability over 6 seconds. Allow force charge to have its cooldown have a 30% chance to reset with each tick of the Shatter DoT. Unstoppable no longer gives us immunity to knockbacks. This allows juggernauts to have enhanced damage and make them much harder to kite (because lets face it, if we are out of 10 meters we are sitting ducks until force charge is off cooldown).

 

Immortal:

Have a talent that causes retaliation to reset the cooldown on smash. Have Soresu form reduce all damage done by 10% to make up for this change.

 

Edit: Also stop forch push from resetting the cooldown on force charge, absolutely moronic mechanic designed for rage generation and not utility.

 

Jugg DPS is low PvE wise, but your so-called fixes are more likely to break the trees and their rolls within the game.

 

Now your "fixes" for Rage I have to say is one of the most retarded things I've ever read. You obviously don't know just how rage starved Rage is as a tree. Assuming you have a full tank of rage, increasing the rage cost of Force Crush and Obliterate leaves you with only 3 rage, enuff to get you that uber AoE you were waiting 5 secs to get, and that's assuming they didn't spend any more rage within that combo. Then to top it off, they would have to spend more time building back up to 12 rage(thanks to your so-called fix) just to pull that combo off again.

 

I like the idea of DoTs dealing a corresponding percentage rather than a flat rate. But your ideas on how Force Change should be reset makes little to no sense. I agree that Force Push reseting Force Change is counter intuitive to what the real problem is. But having a Shatter DoT refresh Force Change poses 2 problems. 1. Relying on chance to refresh a cooldown when you need it immediately. 2. Potentially refreshing an ability you can't use b/c your within 10 yards of your target. Now your nerf to Unstoppable is absolutely stupid. Your taking away the Jugg's ONLY KB protection. Juggs got nothing else that protects them from that.

 

I like the idea of Retaliation reseting the CD on Smash, but taking awaying 10% damage from Soresu potentially gimps their tank roll. Say your idea did make it to live, here's one of the potential scenarios: Your jugg tank in Soresu Form starts tanking a boss, he's putting out 90 dps(down 10% from Soresu) and 135% threat (90 + 50% gained from Soresu). Anyone whose capable of pulling more than 135 dps can and probably will pull off of the Jugg tank b/c he/she is not putting out enough dps themselves to keep threat.

 

This isn't balance. There's no potential gain threat gain from reseting Smash if it comes at the cost of 10% global damage reduction. There's no balance for Rage if it's only potent burst combo leaves them rage starved. And there's no balance if the Jugg if simply forced to take every single knockback targeted at them.