Raximillian Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Clearly you missed my main point - You are expecting toleration and acceptance - yet many of you sport the least amount of toleration I have seen on this thread. Allow me to outline a specific topic in your reply. If I want to PvP, I can turn the toggle option on. If I don't want to then I can turn it off. Saying for me to simply not click the option means that your saying I should simply not attack other players when im flagged. However the other players will still be able to attack me. Sure, I expect tolerance and acceptance. However, I am not forcing participation. No one here is forcing participation. If you see the option, you can ignore it. The problem is in the statement you are putting forward with this. You say you do not want to even see the options, and I imagine there is a reason. What is that reason? Do you somehow feel repulsion? Does seeing the option feel like an insult? The statement that you do not even want to see the option there shows 0 tolerance, and 0 acceptance from your part. Again, accepting something does not mean participating in it. No one is forcing participation. Same with the PVP. It's there, it's an option, but I'm not forced to participate in it. So there is no need to ask for a toggle in the options to turn PVP options off or something. I just do not click them. Heck, I'm not homosexual but I can see how an option like this could cause some resentment. It just shows an absolute 0 tolerance stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithCliff Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) You already have an option to ignore all those [flirt] conversations: Don't click on it. Wasn't that hard? ... It is a problem depending on how you are trying to develop your character and your relationships with your companions. Chosing not to flirt can come at the cost of your companions opinion of you, i.e. gaining affection from them, when you don't want them to. [ Fourth paragraph of the first post http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=268112 ] Again, I don't want any flirt options. It complicates things too much. If you want to flirt, then find another player that will flirt with you, at least that would be more real. If you want to play a game to manipulate fake human(or alien) relationships, don't they have a sims game for that? Edited February 23, 2012 by SithCliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 First, I would like to say I do support a toggle option to Same Gender storylines. This is for the simple reason that (and this was stated earlier) it provides more Immersion for those of us who are not in the LGBC. Why is this particular form of content more deserving of a toggle than any other? What specifically about same gender relationships is so potent in your mind that it, moreso than other forms of romance, extreme violence, duplicity, etc. must be given a means to filter it away. It is rank nonsense to suggest that having an option to do something breaks "immersion". It is code words for invidious bias against a specific group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 These options, are afterall, potential thoughts that your toon is "thinking." No, it is not. These are options being provided to you out of character to decide what your avatar does. In a PnP game, it would be akin to the dungeon master saying, "Well what do you say?" If you see an option there that you would not select, it does not mean that the character was thinking that. I means that since there are only a certain number of options the devs can plan for, this is one that they choose. Many Light side/Dark side choices are diametrically opposed. In fact, it's quite literally impossible at times for a sane character to be thinking of both as options. Now it's true that they sometimes represent things your character might be thinking, but that is not always true. For example, in the Jedi Consular quest line: You are given the option to kill your Jedi Master. Well for my consular that's not even anything that would have entered her mind. It literally was not an option. She didn't go there to kill her, she went there to save her and would have died before taking the Master's life. All these words, "politics", "immersion", etc. are just code words. For what: well, I leave each person to search their heart and consider why they REALLY want this option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racheakt Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 When you create a character, you choose male or female. Just add another step in character creation: gay, straight, or bisexual. Then let the dialog options throughout the game reflect this. /thread This is my position. I don't see the downside, and none has been coherently articulated otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racheakt Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 No, it is not. These are options being provided to you out of character to decide what your avatar does. In a PnP game, it would be akin to the dungeon master saying, "Well what do you say?" If you see an option there that you would not select, it does not mean that the character was thinking that. I means that since there are only a certain number of options the devs can plan for, this is one that they choose. Many Light side/Dark side choices are diametrically opposed. In fact, it's quite literally impossible at times for a sane character to be thinking of both as options. Now it's true that they sometimes represent things your character might be thinking, but that is not always true. For example, in the Jedi Consular quest line: You are given the option to kill your Jedi Master. Well for my consular that's not even anything that would have entered her mind. It literally was not an option. She didn't go there to kill her, she went there to save her and would have died before taking the Master's life. All these words, "politics", "immersion", etc. are just code words. For what: well, I leave each person to search their heart and consider why they REALLY want this option. Insult aside, In the case of the spoiler, as I have stated many times Light/Dark side decision points exist to allow you to drift from one side to the other. Ones sexual preference is not transient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jndca Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 No. If i want to run around with my man and wife, i can. If i want to run around with my man and man, i can. All options should be open. If YOU don't want to have a guy marrying a guy, then DONT do it. Simple. I can't understand why this would offend anyone. You talk about being PC, but YOU'RE the ones getting offended by this content NOT anyone else. YOU are the PC ones right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Insult aside, In the case of the spoiler, as I have stated many times Light/Dark side decision points exist to allow you to drift from one side to the other. Ones sexual preference is not transient. If you saw an insult there, then that suggests you know why you really want this option and recognize it to be repugnant. I just suggested that people search their own hearts to decide why they want this option, because the code words being used here are nonsensical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obzenia Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) This topic has been very interesting. As far as I know right now, the option to flirt with the same gender does not exist in the game, correct? I would like the option to turn this on via a little checkbox in the social panel of the options menu. It's not jumping in anyone's face and would add an interesting aspect to the game. Edited February 23, 2012 by Obzenia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeruleanNite Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I don't think it's being intolerant or bigoted to say "Hey, I'm not interested in s/s options, so I don't want to be prompted repeatedly for them." And for homosexual players, it gives them an option to choose same-gender prompts only, as many have voiced their objection to o/s flirt prompts. To the cry of "You don't need a toggle, just don't click on it", I think many players just don't want to be hounded about it. If multiple conversations gave me the option of "Do the fandango", I wouldn't want to see that either, because I'm just not going to use it. As some people have pointed out. Some characters currently get a lot of flirt options and that is without same-sex in game. Can you just imagine what it might be like if they added it and did not have an option to turn off a portion of the flirts. With some of these characters it would be like every conversation will have flirts. Now I am all for flirts, but I dont need them in every conversation or situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raximillian Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I don't think it's being intolerant or bigoted to say "Hey, I'm not interested in s/s options, so I don't want to be prompted repeatedly for them." And for homosexual players, it gives them an option to choose same-gender prompts only, as many have voiced their objection to o/s flirt prompts. To the cry of "You don't need a toggle, just don't click on it", I think many players just don't want to be hounded about it. If multiple conversations gave me the option of "Do the fandango", I wouldn't want to see that either, because I'm just not going to use it. Sure, a toggle option looks pretty innocent. I mean, it's an option right? I can just choose to select it or not, no big deal... Well, behind that option is a pretty big statement. It's an statement that I do not accept that point of view and do not want to even see it. It's pretty much a 0 tolerance statement. Specially the way the OP phrases it. He clearly states that it is an "ethical problem". He's stating that same gender content is a problem. That right there should have been a flag for the mods to simply close this thread. Anyway, after that the next step could be to add another innocent option where we can select not to see white/black/asian/latino people in the game. I mean, the option is really innocent is it not? And I can just choose to use or it not. Why would anyone have a problem with that? The problem is the statement. Most people will not even see it, the great majority will not even care, but it will be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comfterbilly Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Sure, a toggle option looks pretty innocent. I mean, it's an option right? I can just choose to select it or not, no big deal... Well, behind that option is a pretty big statement. Nope, its an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raximillian Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Nope, its an option. Sure, I could add an option to make the women in the game all stay on the ship and cook dinner and take care of the little jawas. Not out in the world fighting like the real men. I'm sure nobody would be bothered by that because it is just an option right? Why would anyone complain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obzenia Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 In Mass Effect, you had a male romance-able, a female romance-able, and a blue intersexed romance-able that went both ways. Forget the toggle. Add a bi-companion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raximillian Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 In Mass Effect, you had a male romance-able, a female romance-able, and a blue intersexed romance-able that went both ways. Forget the toggle. Add a bi-companion. I never played mass effect, but did that game have any toggle options for that? Or where the options just there? If they were just there for the player to choose, why should SWTOR be any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeruleanNite Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Sure, a toggle option looks pretty innocent. I mean, it's an option right? I can just choose to select it or not, no big deal... Well, behind that option is a pretty big statement. It's an statement that I do not accept that point of view and do not want to even see it. It's pretty much a 0 tolerance statement. Specially the way the OP phrases it. He clearly states that it is an "ethical problem". He's stating that same gender content is a problem. That right there should have been a flag for the mods to simply close this thread. Anyway, after that the next step could be to add another innocent option where we can select not to see white/black/asian/latino people in the game. I mean, the option is really innocent is it not? And I can just choose to use or it not. Why would anyone have a problem with that? The problem is the statement. Most people will not even see it, the great majority will not even care, but it will be there. Just because I select an option to play a character gay, does that mean I hate straight people? Just because I select an option to play a character straight, does that mean I hate gay people? Just because I select an option to play a character sex-less, does that mean I hate everyone? If we use that logic, then because I selected to have one of my characters be a blue twi'lek then I must hate every other race because they are not blue or twi'lek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 To the cry of "You don't need a toggle, just don't click on it", I think many players just don't want to be hounded about it. If multiple conversations gave me the option of "Do the fandango", I wouldn't want to see that either, because I'm just not going to use it. There's no 'hounding'. More code words. It's just a word [Flirt]. Easily ignored. The only and I mean only reason that any person could want to hide that option away and not any other option is their distaste for even the suggestion of homosexuality in game. One wonders where such an attitude comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akirator Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Just because I select an option to play a character gay, does that mean I hate straight people? Just because I select an option to play a character straight, does that mean I hate gay people? Just because I select an option to play a character sex-less, does that mean I hate everyone? If we use that logic, then because I selected to have one of my characters be a blue twi'lek then I must hate every other race because they are not blue or twi'lek. Except a better example would be you playing a blue twi'lek and wanting an option to remove every other race from the game and turn them all into blue twi'leks. Most are asking for the toggle because they don't even want to THINK about the topic. They're the ones bringing politics, etc into the game, not BW by not having a toggle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Just because I select an option to play a character gay, does that mean I hate straight people? Just because I select an option to play a character straight, does that mean I hate gay people? Just because I select an option to play a character sex-less, does that mean I hate everyone? If we use that logic, then because I selected to have one of my characters be a blue twi'lek then I must hate every other race because they are not blue or twi'lek. Your analogy is inapposite. Should this ridiculous idea not come to pass, you always have the option of playing your character as a heterosexual. All that happens is there is an option for same gender flirt and romance options. It says nothing about you if you don't select those options. I don't intend to use them myself. But to demand that you never, ever even see the options suggests more. It's pretty obvious what that more is, but in deference to Bioware's need to protect the OP from his own opinion, I'll keep it to myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obzenia Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) I never played mass effect, but did that game have any toggle options for that? Or where the options just there? If they were just there for the player to choose, why should SWTOR be any different? The game refers to her as a she, and I believe it was optional to recruit her. "She is a potential romance interest for either a male or female Shepard. " http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Liara_T'Soni In case anyone didn't know, Mass Effect was developed by BioWare. An optional companion like Liara that is acquired through a questline would fix this toggle/no-toggle nonsense. Edited February 23, 2012 by Obzenia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raximillian Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Just because I select an option to play a character gay, does that mean I hate straight people? Just because I select an option to play a character straight, does that mean I hate gay people? Just because I select an option to play a character sex-less, does that mean I hate everyone? If we use that logic, then because I selected to have one of my characters be a blue twi'lek then I must hate every other race because they are not blue or twi'lek. Not at all, why would you think that? No one is asking for anything special, just that all relationship options are given a place in the conversation wheel. Without the need to add an option to simply reject them outright. It just shows a certain level of intolerance. Edited February 23, 2012 by Raximillian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AquaSky Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) I don't think it's intolerant to be attracted to men exclusively. Or women. Or whatever floats your boat. We're not saying "Keep that thurr gay bidness outta my MMO", we're saying "Let me decide which gender prompts the Flirt options for my character". I'm attracted to guys. I just don't have the desire to be with girls. So I'd rather not see all of the Flirt prompts for girls. It's just another option that hogs the wheel, and one that I'm not going to use, so I'd rather do without it on my own UI. If we can customize every other aspect of the UI and character, orientation should be included. Edited February 24, 2012 by AquaSky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raximillian Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I don't think it's intolerant to be attracted to men exclusively. Or women. Or whatever floats your boat. We're not saying "Keep that thurr gay bidness outta my MMO", we're saying "Let me decide which gender prompts the Flirt options for my character". I'm attracted to guys. I just don't have the desire to be with girls. So I'd rather not see all of the Flirt prompts for girls. It's just another option that hogs the wheel, and one that I'm not going to use, so I'd rather do without it on my own UI. If we can customize every other aspect of the UI and character, orientation is a given. I understand your point as well. I'm just thinking that from the developers point of view, it may be better to inconvenience the players a bit by offering more conversation options (even if they will never use them), than to possibly open a whole different can of worms :S People won't quit, nor will potential bad publicity be created if another option is added to the conversation wheel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comfterbilly Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 I understand your point as well. I'm just thinking that from the developers point of view, it may be better to inconvenience the players a bit by offering more conversation options (even if they will never use them), than to possibly open a whole different can of worms :S People won't quit, nor will potential bad publicity be created if another option is added to the conversation wheel... How about no can of worms? Most members of both orientations have said they'd prefer an option to filter out the flirts they don't want, many on both sides also saying they would prefer just having to choose one time which flirts they want instead of dealing with it on the conversation wheel. The only people against this option have consistently - very consistently - proven themselves to be inordinately concerned with the experience of other players. Ironically they claim to take this stance on behalf of the LGBT community, not realizing there is no rubber stamped position for any group of people, and its sad they would rather take even LGBT player's option to customize their game away just for the sake of stuffing their opinions in other peoples' face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Most members of both orientations have said they'd prefer an option to filter out the flirts they don't want, Please provide results of your statistically significant survey sample of the playerbase. I'll wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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