Request to Change Project and Throw, with suggestions and examples…

[iDiggory]

As Haavik says, this game takes place in the Expanded Universe. Therefore, it doesn't make any sense to reject lore sources because they aren't the movies.

 

The moves are considered the highest level of lore. Meaning that they are always deferred to in the case of contradictions with other lore sources. (Statements by Lucas and other lore info directly from him are also top-tier canon).

 

The television shows are the next highest tier of canon. That video I linked of Shaak Ti using Force Throw in battle is higher level canon than just about everything else in the Star Wars Universe, and it conclusively shows that Jedi (including an extremely "light" aligned Consular master, and council member, like her) use Force Throw in battle.

 

In a world with high tier lore sources, the Consular would fight like she did--lightsaber attacks, force throw, force lift, force push/pull, and MAYBE Force Heal (I don't know if that is in the television series).

 

It's for the sake of gameplay that the Sage was created. One, to differentiate them more strongly from Jedi Knights. Two, to create a mirror for Inquisitors (who DO exist in the higher canon as purely force-based fighters).

 

And it is for the sake of diversity that the more complicated TK abilities, like Disturbance, Wave, and Turbulence, were included. These, being incredibly complicated powers, require specialization in Telekinetic combat. So it only makes sense that Telekinetics Sages would almost exclusively use them, where Balance Sages rely primarily on less complicated skills.

 

Remember, Nadia is a powerful force user, and talented Shadow. She can still barely lift a rock using the force, because it takes too much control.

[Zenebathos]

I think project is awesome the way it is, delayed damage and everything.

To balance the gameplay, i'd rather see shock as a globe of lightning, flying to the target the way the consular's chunk does.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Zenebathos

[iDiggory]

I think project is awesome the way it is, delayed damage and everything.

To balance the gameplay, i'd rather see shock as a globe of lightning, flying to the target the way the consular's chunk does.

 

I actually really would as well.

 

For one, it would add some diversity to the Inquisitor's attack style. Nearly all of their attacks are just lightning flying from their fingertips. This would at least make it something cool and unique.

 

I also love the utility of Project in PVP. You can't use it as an instant interrupt, no. But it has so many other great uses BECAUSE of its delay. My favorite is using it to interrupt a healer that is about to break LoS with me, giving me additional time to catch up. Since it casts when they are still in sight, but doesn't hit for .5-1 seconds after, they are almost always stationary and casting a heal by that point.

 

Obviously, you could have just stunned them before they went out of LoS at all. But you essentially get an extra second "locking" them down this way, since they are going to be running behind a pillar (etc.) while the projectile is being prepped.

 

Plus, I just don't think Sage/Shadows need another instant interrupt. Personally, I think it's too OP.

[Menisong]

So you look at project and honestly think that it is an instant animation? Honestly?

 

Saber throw - yoda

Absorb - yoda

Reflect - yoda

Saber Reflect - countless times

Heals - Obi Wan, probably Yoda

Force Push - countless times

 

So just using these you could come up with a set of abilities. The whole healing tree would be covered. Balance tree could contain the Absorb and Reflect style abilities while the TK tree could start with saber throw and have a variety of force projectile, disturbance/ TK wave style abilities, much like now. Force in Balance is kind of like an Absorb. So yes, there are plenty of abilitites, plenty of ideas and themes to follow. But as other posters have mentioned, it looks and feels like BW did the Sith side first, then copied/pasted. The basic idea though is to follow the themes. Throwing objects is really a sith theme. The movies showed us that, repeatedly. I'm sure if you look you will see it.

 

Please quote where I made any reference to Project being an instant ability.

 

Right so all jedi in this game should be healers? What you described does not make a viable class...at all.

 

Jedi have moved objects using the force many many times in the movies. Using this theme to build on damage class abilities seems very very logical to me.

Fits perfectly with the class.

[Haavik]

I would just like to point out this excerpt from Wookiepedia:

 

Force Throw

 

"A telekinetic ability of the Force, perhaps related to Force Push. It caused objects, and even people, to be hurled toward a target at an astounding velocity. A skilled Force user could throw multiple, large objects simultaneously at great speed, as evidenced by Palpatine during his duel with Yoda in the Grand Convocation Chamber of the Senate Building, during which he hurled repulsorpods at the Jedi Master. Anakin Skywalker used this ability when he was attacked on Geonosis, hurling droideka arms at oncoming Geonosian warriors. As Darth Vader, he used it to defeat Jedi Master Roan Shryne in combat on Kashyyyk. He later used it to overwhelm and subdue his own son, Luke Skywalker, during their battle in Cloud City on Bespin."

 

 

That being said, once again I am for changing Project into an actual instant attack and not altering Shock because that would upset probably every single Sith player out there. I know that everyone that currently likes Project's animation says they don't want the Jedi's abilities to become boring like the Sith's constant lightning flinging, but I would have to agree with some type of air rippling/projectile effect. I don't know if anyone saw it earlier but I had mentioned the same animation that is used when a Jedi explodes the environmental canisters, it's just a little "force push" effect that I think would work pretty well for Project.

[Dyvim]

I would just like to point out this excerpt from Wookiepedia:

 

Force Throw

 

"A telekinetic ability of the Force, perhaps related to Force Push. It caused objects, and even people, to be hurled toward a target at an astounding velocity. A skilled Force user could throw multiple, large objects simultaneously at great speed, as evidenced by Palpatine during his duel with Yoda in the Grand Convocation Chamber of the Senate Building, during which he hurled repulsorpods at the Jedi Master. Anakin Skywalker used this ability when he was attacked on Geonosis, hurling droideka arms at oncoming Geonosian warriors. As Darth Vader, he used it to defeat Jedi Master Roan Shryne in combat on Kashyyyk. He later used it to overwhelm and subdue his own son, Luke Skywalker, during their battle in Cloud City on Bespin."

 

 

That being said, once again I am for changing Project into an actual instant attack and not altering Shock because that would upset probably every single Sith player out there. I know that everyone that currently likes Project's animation says they don't want the Jedi's abilities to become boring like the Sith's constant lightning flinging, but I would have to agree with some type of air rippling/projectile effect. I don't know if anyone saw it earlier but I had mentioned the same animation that is used when a Jedi explodes the environmental canisters, it's just a little "force push" effect that I think would work pretty well for Project.

 

Yes, thank you for the suggestion. Notice the examples they site are all Sith or Anakin, on his way to being Sith. I included your suggestion in the original thread several days ago, I think someone else (not me) beat you to it in the thread. If it was you, I apologize.

[Haavik]

Nope I think someone else beat me to that idea, but either way I still think it's better and it fits with the whole Project idea. I don't think it needs to be beefed up at all, keep it the way it is and that way if someone picks Sage then Disturbance is a more powerful, and thus better looking, version because of their mastery and charging (cast time).

 

And I also proposed moving the current Project's animation over to Telekinetic Throw which I think would make the perfect animation as it's channeled and it's already in the game for NPC's (Project Storm). Not only does telekinetically throwing things, junk tossing as you've described, fit the idea behind the ability, but the name itself implies throwing things and not just little pebbles that apparently every consular is carrying in a puch with them everywhere in case they need to annoy enemies.

[Dyvim]

Nope I think someone else beat me to that idea, but either way I still think it's better and it fits with the whole Project idea. I don't think it needs to be beefed up at all, keep it the way it is and that way if someone picks Sage then Disturbance is a more powerful, and thus better looking, version because of their mastery and charging (cast time).

 

And I also proposed moving the current Project's animation over to Telekinetic Throw which I think would make the perfect animation as it's channeled and it's already in the game for NPC's (Project Storm). Not only does telekinetically throwing things, junk tossing as you've described, fit the idea behind the ability, but the name itself implies throwing things and not just little pebbles that apparently every consular is carrying in a puch with them everywhere in case they need to annoy enemies.

 

Yep, I appreciate the idea of skill progression very much. But I think they would need to improve the animation a bit, if for no other reason than to put it in between the current "blow up a container" ani and disturbance, versus just keeping it the same.

 

Unless they can fix the environment issues, I would not be for pulling up more junk. I would much rather see channeled, directed, force shockwaves. But if they change Project so both skills arent based on junk throwing, certainly that would make things more palatable.

[Drakior]

I made a comment earlier on page 46 but it seems to have been ignored mostly. In my comment I said as a Shadow I hate and have absolutely no use for TK. Al tho I do use Project. But these skills are still immensely underpowered compared to the Sith side. Now I do not want a major buff but rather just some slight changes.

 

Project actually stuns standard aka PLAYERS for a few seconds.

 

TK, why is it not AOE? Seriously? Make it AOE and it will have a use.

 

Two very simple changes that would require very little time to put in. This will at-least make it fair.

 

I know many of you are saying that it should be taken out. Where I can see TK being taken out and replaced with something else. Project to me seems OK, just underpowered.

 

And until TK is changed it is useless.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Drakior

[RockysRevenge]

And I also proposed moving the current Project's animation over to Telekinetic Throw.

 

Me too. But I suppose we need to get them to actually acknowledge that it's a problem first.

[Axagoth]

I think project is awesome the way it is, delayed damage and everything.

To balance the gameplay, i'd rather see shock as a globe of lightning, flying to the target the way the consular's chunk does.

 

This would be a nice way to make the boring sorcerer more appealing since it has nothing more than lightning to cast. I find the jedi much more versatile with rocks and waves and quakes. And since shock is an instant-stun that would also be good to make it less overpowered.

 

Globe of lightning is the way.

[Drakior]

The purpose of this thread is to "Request to Change Project and Throw (TK), with suggestions and examples..."

 

So am I the only one that wants to change the effects of this abilities rather then one side changing them completely and the other keeping them the way they are?

 

The fact is these abilities are kinda broken. Keeping with lore or not they need to be changed. Not changed into new abilities but changed as in reworked.

 

Besides you guys are complaining about the lore of this game seriously? If you count the movies as the "purest lore" there is... then your nuts. The lore was made thanks to fans and people who worked to make books and stories and other games to make this universe fun and entertaining. There are so many ridiculous and impossible or improbable things going on in this universe that you guys should stop fanboying it up with "but here it said this so this and this" just get over it.

 

What we need to do is work to help make this the most enjoyable game it can be without having a pissing contest on who watches or reads more star wars.

 

If I pissed anyone off well sorry its the truth.

 

Back on topic.

 

Again I point to my earlier comments.

 

Project's abilities are fine with the delay, it allows me to do a lot of damage quickly. But it needs to be able to stun players like it can stun NPC's.

 

TK needs a MAJOR overhaul. Since you are throwing multiple small projectiles why inst it AOE and or able to upgrade it through a tree to do area stun/slow.

 

Again I say this thread is for requesting to change these skills which I completely agree with.

But only to change what they do rather then change them completely.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Drakior

[Ohoni]

DF2:JK and all the subsequent games were published by lucasarts and are canon, and they CLEARLY label throwing objects as darkside.

 

Yes, but you're ignoring other completely canonical sources (even more canonical than JK, technically) in which pure light-side Jedi use object throwing constantly, so your one source is trumped by several other sources. Jedi Knight classified them as dark side attacks because in that game they were, but in the larger SW universe, they are not.

 

Here, Shaak-ti uses TK throw, without a hint of yellow eyes, at around 3:25.

 

Also, there's this video, which is silly, but also shows Shaak-ti using TK to throw an arm at one droid, and then pick up another droid and slam him into another one.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Ohoni

[Haavik]

This has no bearing on this discussion at all but I thought I'd just throw it into the mix. One of the current season's episodes of The Clone Wars, the CG animated series, Obi-Wan Kenobi actually picked up two commando droids and used Force Crush on them. I thought it was pretty cool and especially since Kenobi did it, I haven't seen anyone do it other than Galen Marek in the Force Unleashed game(s).

 

I only mention this because I remember reading a post, not sure if it was in this one or not, where someone suggested using a Force Crush-like animation for Project.

[Dyvim]

This has no bearing on this discussion at all but I thought I'd just throw it into the mix. One of the current season's episodes of The Clone Wars, the CG animated series, Obi-Wan Kenobi actually picked up two commando droids and used Force Crush on them. I thought it was pretty cool and especially since Kenobi did it, I haven't seen anyone do it other than Galen Marek in the Force Unleashed game(s).

 

I only mention this because I remember reading a post, not sure if it was in this one or not, where someone suggested using a Force Crush-like animation for Project.

 

Yeah, Im not sure how they would animate that, though...with droids its easy enough in a cartoon to do the tin can effect. But Im not sure how you would do it in game and make it look good, especially with the variety of targets involved.

[sillabaa]

The biggest issue IMO is the delay on project/ lack of delay on shock. This imbalance is a serious issue and without rambling about canon like 30 pages of this thread has, I would like to +1 to a change to this.

 

The best idea so far has been to give project the disturbance animation and make it faster with the damage application being as quick as shock, and making throw the same animation as the npc project storm we see from time to time. Disturbance can throw the old project rock, and for upheaval procs on project there could be a second half size disturbance, similar in function to the current project upheaval proc but obviously much much quicker to correct the current mirror class imbalance.

[KiaThas]

Brilliant! these changed would improve the gameplay for consulars and improve the lack of visuals.

[Vales]

Brilliant! these changed would improve the gameplay for consulars and improve the lack of visuals.

 

The gameplay would stay the same...

[iDiggory]

There is only one telekinetic power that is viewed as dark sided by the Jedi, and that is Force Choke. But even that isn't absolute. They disaprove of the power in general, but don't view it as dark sided if it is used only to disable (for instance, limiting air supply so they pass out, or have trouble breathing, not cutting it off completely).

 

Using it for humiliation, as the Sith loved to do, was particularly dark sided.

 

That's the ONLY dark sided Telekinetic power in the lore.

 

All higher lore sources support Telekinetics, including Force Throw, as a neutral power.

[Chaoslibrarian]

Giving the siths inquisitor Project would make everyone happy. Except them, obviously, but that would make everyone happier.

Still, they do have too much lightning, it gets boring. So, ideal.

[Sireene]

Hey everybody!

 

We recently had to remove several posts from this thread as they were argumentative and off-topic. While we greatly appreciate how passionate you all are about this discussion, we ask that you please keep all replies constructive, respectful, and on-topic. Additionally, please do not argue with others. If you believe another member to be violating the Rules of Conduct, please use the Flag feature to report this behavior rather than disrupt the ongoing conversation.

 

Finally, please don't forget that we have an Ignore Feature on the forums. To ignore, click on the name of the user you wish to ignore. In the dropdown there will be an option "add to ignore list." Select that option and then you're done.

 

Again, thank you all so much for taking the time to share your thoughts, opinions, suggestions, and ideas regarding this topic!

 

- Sireene

 

[Dyvim]

conclusive proof that throwing things is viewed as an act of anger...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VObFc64OnEk

 

Edited February 19, 2012 by Dyvim

[Dyvim]

THis was posted today in the Dev Q&A...gives me hope, at least for project getting changed...lets hope the animation team has been scanning the boards and has at least watched 1 or 2 of the star wars movies...lol...if not, instead of magic rocks, we might be throwing magic shrubbery...lol

 

Chyp: Can we expect to see any animation/damage timing consistency changes between factions?

 

Georg Zoeller (Principal Lead Combat Designer): Yes. The animation team has been working on a new set of animations for abilities like the Trooper's Mortar Volley to provide closer matching of animation timings and improved combat responsiveness. We expect to roll these changes out with Game Update 1.2.

 

Maybe the devs will be kind and give us a list of the ani's that are being worked on...

Edited February 25, 2012 by Dyvim

[AKIHA]

I support this 100%. Great ideas!

 

What he said.

[Dyvim]

Updated main post to reflect Force Burst idea. It is pretty ironic that you have to go on the sith side even to just get a good instant jedi animation that could mirror Shock...lol...and pretty ironic that the Sith's fallen jedi companions have better animations than the actual Pub players do...lol...

 

The Inquisitor companion, Ashara Zavros, a fallen padawan, has a skill called Force Burst. It is the best mirror animation for Shock I have seen in the game. It is instant, has a quick hand gesture, and has no projectile...the target is hit with force energy...almost exactly like what shock does....it is described in the tooltip as "A powerful burst of force energy that deals kinetic damage...". Here is a photo that compares the two, Force Burst and Shock, side by side:

 

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8731/forceburstvsshock.jpg

 

This is already in the game, all ready to go. Come on BW, make this happen, pls. Or do SOMETHING to get rid of the junk throwing and its delay. There are PLENTY of ideas here to start with...