Yfelsung Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Hello fellow PvPers. How frustrating is it to not be able to stop someone from scoring because they have a white bar above their head? How frustrating is it to have to let a healer get a heal off because he has a white bar above his head? Diminishing returns and things like the resolve bar are frustrating. It means that in a long fight, eventually I will be unable to control my opponent. But, on the other hand, being CC'd to death is also frustrating. So how do we deal? Easy: A limitless use CC break with a HEALTH COST. Now CC becomes something known as "optional damage". You choose whether it's worth your HP to break the CC or let it fade. Now, the CC break should cost less than the amount of damage a class can do in a full stun, but not A LOT less. Passive resistances in PvP are a big no no. You should never become immune to something without making the conscious choice to use an ability to do it. CC and CC breakage is a very important dimension of skillful PvP, right now it's diminished because of resolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbadisbad Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 ITT: Lets make Sorcs more OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alundo Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 CC is diminished because of resolve? What the hell? Resolve doesn't kick in early enough if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 CC is diminished because of resolve? What the hell? Resolve doesn't kick in early enough if you ask me. Passivity is never a good answer. You should have to use an ability to get out of CC, not simply become immune to it after you've taken too much. Hence, the unlimited use CC break with a health cost. Now you can break EVERY STUN thrown at you, you'll just have to decide if it's worth the health cost. Right now, as a Juggernaut, one force choke and one stun and your resolve bar is full. TWO STUNS and I can't force push you. Two stuns and my disrupt and now I can't stop you from casting. In PvP, you should never be safe from the abilities of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alundo Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Passivity is never a good answer. You should have to use an ability to get out of CC, not simply become immune to it after you've taken too much. Hence, the unlimited use CC break with a health cost. Now you can break EVERY STUN thrown at you, you'll just have to decide if it's worth the health cost. Right now, as a Juggernaut, one force choke and one stun and your resolve bar is full. TWO STUNS and I can't force push you. Two stuns and my disrupt and now I can't stop you from casting. In PvP, you should never be safe from the abilities of others. What needs to be looked at are the different class stuns/cc's and the amount of resolve they produce. I'm not a lucky one, Operative does a hidden strike and a debilitate and the resolve bar is white. Sorc's however can seem to endlessly immobilize you with the mixture of stuns/exploding bubbles/AoE push because hardly any resolve is built from them. (Not saying one/two and you should be white btw) Edited February 10, 2012 by Alundo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlander Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Simple fix to CC, a player can only be CCed 1 time every 15 seconds. The 15 seconds starts after the CC is broken or wears off. So once the CC is over that player can not be CCed again for 15 seconds. Edited February 10, 2012 by Badlander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihateyouall Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 OP, I hope you are not pursuing a career in game development, oh god the horror Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 Simple fix to CC, a player can only be CCed 1 time every 15 seconds. The 15 seconds starts after the CC is broken or wears off. So once the CC is over that player can not be CCed again for 15 seconds. That's still passivity and passivity is always bad. You should NEVER gain advantages from passive systems. Two cardinal sins in PvP are a) too much RNG and b) too many passive resistances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lymain Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Thumbs up for thinking of the health cost idea, since it is logical, but the current implementation is better, imo. In an objective-based game like this, I don't really want everything to translate into DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McVade Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Bad idea. Too imbalanced to classes with on demand damage shields/healing. The solution to CC is Diminishing Returns. You get stunned once, the next stun is half as long. The third stun, half as long as that one. Then you're immune to all stuns for 20-30 seconds. Same thing with Knockbacks and Incapacitation Effects. Also, AoE CC is an absolutely god awful idea. It's probably responsible for most of the QQ here. Take Awe/Marauder Counterpart, make it a 20 second cooldown and only effect 1 person. Yes, I'm proposing a nerf to my own class. Also, remove all AoE Knockbacks and balance the class another way. Ranged should have no Disorient style CC without a 2 second cast time. Melee can have their CCs instant. It's okay for melee to have an advantage over ranged in 1 department. Also give all melee a second means to avoid snares/roots, or make it so spell-casting while rooted is not possible. No reason roots should = a stun for 1 style of character and be harmless for another. Or if you don't like my ideas, just do something to reduce Crowd Control. Make terrible music play when someone uses an AoE CC... it may give them a moments pause, which will translate to LESS time I spend in a CC. Edited February 10, 2012 by McVade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lymain Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Bad idea. Too imbalanced to classes with on demand damage shields/healing. The solution to CC is Diminishing Returns. You get stunned once, the next stun is half as long. The third stun, half as long as that one. Then you're immune to all stuns for 20-30 seconds. Same thing with Knockbacks and Incapacitation Effects. But then, in an 8v8 situation, how do I know how long my CC will last? And if I can't know that, how do I maximize its effectiveness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 We could make the damage unmitigatable/blockable (which would fix the damage shield problem) and if we made it a significant amount of health, even healing classes would have a problem as now they need to spend time healing after they broke CC. All I know is that if my class had 3 CCs, I should be able to use 3 CCs on one target without proccing resolve. Right now I cannot. Also, there needs to be something done about Huttball, because if 5 players are trying to CC one Marauder as he marches across the goal, he should not make it. As it is now, a fully resolved Assassin (with his speed) or Marauder (with his 99% damage reduction) can literally march across the goal line even with half a team on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sourceerror Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 There are too many cc's in MMOs as it is. Let's add more cc and knockbacks, pushbacks and also every time you back peddle you fall over for 5 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lymain Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) As it is now, a fully resolved Assassin (with his speed) or Marauder (with his 99% damage reduction) can literally march across the goal line even with half a team on them. You're apparently missing the fact that your team controls whether they have a full resolve bar or not. It is lame that two people can use CCs at exactly the same time and accidentally white bar the target, but that could be fixed without overhauling the system. Edited February 10, 2012 by Lymain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 There are too many cc's in MMOs as it is. Let's add more cc and knockbacks, pushbacks and also every time you back peddle you fall over for 5 seconds. I disagree, there's not too many CCs, there's not enough CC breaks. Lots of CC is good as long as lots of options for ACTIVE CC breaks exist. The problem with most current MMOs is you have lots of CC, one CC break and then a stupid passive immunity system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McVade Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) But then, in an 8v8 situation, how do I know how long my CC will last? And if I can't know that, how do I maximize its effectiveness? Most of the time, people will be off diminishing returns, especially if AoE CCs go the way of the dodo bird. Just look for someone on the outskirts of the battle who doesn't seem to have any attention on him, or someone who is on you who seems to be invisible to everyone but you. There's also the question of should you actually have this information. This is the only MMO I've seen that lets players actually see the level of "resolve/diminishing returns" on the present target. I don't really dislike that aspect. I just hate the amount of CC in the game, how long it takes before Resolve does anything and, really, how SHORT resolve lasts before it happens all over again. Edited February 10, 2012 by McVade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sourceerror Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I disagree, there's not too many CCs, there's not enough CC breaks. Lots of CC is good as long as lots of options for ACTIVE CC breaks exist. The problem with most current MMOs is you have lots of CC, one CC break and then a stupid passive immunity system. You are wrong. The problem with MMOs is their crutch reliance on CC to determine skill instead of timing, flow, hard interrupts, variable casting times, the idea of pre-casting. A game designed around reaction and awareness instead of any system where you could be caught unable to control your character for any amount of time is what's needed. Expanding upon a flawed concept still leaves the system flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 You are wrong. The problem with MMOs is their crutch reliance on CC to determine skill instead of timing, flow, hard interrupts, variable casting times, the idea of pre-casting. A game designed around reaction and awareness instead of any system where you could be caught unable to control your character for any amount of time is what's needed. Expanding upon a flawed concept still leaves the system flawed. Hence the unlimited CC break with a health cost. Now you are NEVER unable to control your character. You can break any CC that gets thrown at you, but it COSTS. That way you have CC that is entirely optional as to whether you let it work on you for any length of time. And neither of us are right or wrong, we have differing opinions on what makes good PvP. I think CC is important, as movement is important in a fight and restricting the movement of your opponent is important as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sourceerror Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Hence the unlimited CC break with a health cost. Now you are NEVER unable to control your character. You can break any CC that gets thrown at you, but it COSTS. That way you have CC that is entirely optional as to whether you let it work on you for any length of time. And neither of us are right or wrong, we have differing opinions on what makes good PvP. I think CC is important, as movement is important in a fight and restricting the movement of your opponent is important as well. Wrong. Bad concept is bad and you're trying to patch it with an equally bad concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthiel Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Bad idea. Too imbalanced to classes with on demand damage shields/healing. The solution to CC is Diminishing Returns. You get stunned once, the next stun is half as long. The third stun, half as long as that one. Then you're immune to all stuns for 20-30 seconds. Same thing with Knockbacks and Incapacitation Effects. Also, AoE CC is an absolutely god awful idea. It's probably responsible for most of the QQ here. Take Awe/Marauder Counterpart, make it a 20 second cooldown and only effect 1 person. Yes, I'm proposing a nerf to my own class. Also, remove all AoE Knockbacks and balance the class another way. Ranged should have no Disorient style CC without a 2 second cast time. Melee can have their CCs instant. It's okay for melee to have an advantage over ranged in 1 department. Also give all melee a second means to avoid snares/roots, or make it so spell-casting while rooted is not possible. No reason roots should = a stun for 1 style of character and be harmless for another. Or if you don't like my ideas, just do something to reduce Crowd Control. Make terrible music play when someone uses an AoE CC... it may give them a moments pause, which will translate to LESS time I spend in a CC. after reading your post i'v come to the conclusion that you are no judge of whats a bad idea or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 Wrong. Bad concept is bad and you're trying to patch it with an equally bad concept. Once again, this isn't a right or wrong thing. In my opinion the best PvP MMO of all time was DAOC. DAOC had CC so powerful it would cause most people here to rage. But good CC is how a coordinated group of 6 people in DAOC could dominate a zerg of 3 to 1 odds. Proper use of CC is what allows someone to win in 2 v 1 and 3 v 1 fights. Without CC, you have a DPS race. Because of being an Immortal Juggernaut, with my 3 hard CCs, I can win 2 v 1 fights. Without that CC, it's just a DPS race, one an Immortal Juggernaut will lose every time. The entire reason the Immortal spec is even viable in PvP is because of the extra CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McVade Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 after reading your post i'v come to the conclusion that you are no judge of whats a bad idea or not. Please don't troll. If you don't have anything constructive to say, you don't need to say anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpilumpigus Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) I do not think 100% snares (aka roots) should block people from going into Cover "in place". Otherwise, it's practically as good as a stun for classes/specs that depend on that. You might want take this into consideration when you realize that classes/specs that depend on Cover have practically disappeared from Warzones. Edited February 16, 2012 by Crumpilumpigus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 What needs to be looked at are the different class stuns/cc's and the amount of resolve they produce. I'm not a lucky one, Operative does a hidden strike and a debilitate and the resolve bar is white. Sorc's however can seem to endlessly immobilize you with the mixture of stuns/exploding bubbles/AoE push because hardly any resolve is built from them. (Not saying one/two and you should be white btw) This! I prefer THIS approach. Good suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finetop Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) ITT: Lets make Sorcs more OP Sorc's however can seem to endlessly immobilize you with the mixture of stuns/exploding bubbles/AoE push because hardly any resolve is built from them. (Not saying one/two and you should be white btw) Sums up my thoughts. I rolled a sorc yesterday. I look forward to rofl stomping you guys and drinking your nerd tears soon. Going to be nothing but L2P from me to you. Edited February 16, 2012 by finetop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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