Same gender relationships clarifications?

[StSathar]

Someone in the prior iteration of this thread expressed derision at a suggestion that actual snail-mail, paper-in-an-envelope letters might lend weight to our concerns.

 

I hope that wasn't me. I vaguely recall saying something a while back that could be taken that way, though "Derision" is hardly what I was trying to emote. It was more my... unease... that something that should have been a quickly-addressed minor inconsistency in a public entertainment product was exploding into a riot-in-the-streets, burn-the-cities, organize-parades-for-a-century civil rights flashpoint.

 

That said, if you think snail letters will resolve this sooner, by all means, keep writing. Let me know if we need to set up a Paypal link for postage.

[Wittand]

Honestly I think until we can garner the notice (even if not outright support) of some of these kind of groups I think BW is more than happy to sit on their hands on this issue.

 

And what should the human rights campaign do ?

File a complaint about the lack of 15 minutes worth of dialog in an MMO ?

Somehow I think that they have bigger fish to fry right now.

 

Get into perspective.

GLAAD might make a complaint if the content is not there at the one year mark, but no even half-way serious organisation will do anything right now, when the content is already promised to come, because they would make themself look silly and loose credibility, which harms GLBT causes far more important than romance in a computer game.

 

I would really wish that people stop acting if this is some kind of civil right issue. Sure the situation is aggravating and the continued silence by the devs discourages me from playing the game so much that I will not add another gametime card once my current playtime runs out.

[Kioma]

Now the forums are back up, I can whinge about something that slapped me in the face today with little to no warning.

 

<huge freakin' snip>

 

{I ask that anyone replying to this, please keep spoilers in spoiler tags.}

 

Don't look at it as a breaking point. Look at it as a role-playing opportunity. Agonise over it suitably. I'll explain:

 

 

 

Your character as encountered a situation which requires a very specific answer.

 

As I understand it you've been given three options: to hesitantly agree; to enthusiastically agree; or to violently disagree. Yes?

 

My suggestion is to use that. Sure, she wouldn't break their laws and such, she wouldn't violate the sanctity of their marriage, etc, but if she actually doesn't have a choice then what does she do?

 

If her options really are to go Dark Side (and kill the family, by your implication), to marry the boy (hesitant or not) or to return to Dromund Kaas in shame having failed her mission (and possibly get killed, knowing the Empire), then what does she do?

 

You know what she'd prefer to do but what if that actually isn't an option? She needs to make a decision and no decision available to her is good or satisfying.

 

So.. what does Jan do? When given a choice of personal morals to violate, knowing that she does in fact need to violate at least one, which one does she pick? How does she proceed? And how does she live with herself afterwards?

 

 

 

It's a very difficult thing to wrap one's head around, and the implications (both short and long) aren't nice. I can imagine this unfortunate situation is going to exist on your main's memory as a sour regret no matter which ways she works it, but the composition of a character is about her failures, unhappy compromises and miserable regrets just as much as her pride, victories and goals achieved.

 

My advice is not to write the character off but to actually play the cards as they've been dealt - even if they're not the cards you wanted. Be strong, be brave, be determined. Don't be shy to screw your character over a bit because circumstances sure aren't shy about giving you no happy options.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Kioma

[stuffystuffs]

Non-spoiler version: My lesbian Operative, Jan'neria (yes, the one in my sig), just got herself into a heterosexual situation in her class storyline which she can't get herself out from without being a complete bloodthirsty illegitimate child. No other alternative is being offered.

 

Oh, that sucks.

 

My Operative just hit Voss and I actually started to really like that planet.

 

Though, mine is a bit more ruthless so she might go with the DS version.

[jediknightcub]

Please, check your sources before saying something like this. Spreading misinformation is never, ever a good thing.

 

To that end, here's a link to TORWARS where they reported this and included Stephen Reid's follow-up statement.

[jediknightcub]

I'm thinking that March 13th (6 months from the day the official announcement about the inclusion of SGRAs was made) is a good deadline for a substantive statement from Bioware about the implementation of SGRAs.

 

An ETA or development timeline is acceptable; another vague statement is not.

 

At that point, I think it would be appropriate to contact GLAAD about this issue again.

 

That will also be several days after the release of Mass Effect 3, so Bioware--doesn't matter if it's Austin or Edmonton, it's all still the Bioware brand--should have their PR department adequately prepared for the inevitable backlash from the usual anti-gay suspects.

[sparklecat]

My advice to everybody, get the name of the guy whom defended Anders when some homophobe attacked the character because of his come ons, and said bioware employee DESTROYED him on the spot, if we get his name, and we can find a way of contacting him (by contacting, I do NOT mean bombard him with messages and phonecalls, he's just a person like any one of us, and is probably working very hard on Mass Effect 3.) he IS our best chance of getting real action from BioWare Austin.

 

David Gaider, yeah. I actually PM'd him over on BSN after I'd tried the game out in Beta and been disappointed by the lack of same-sex options (and felt somewhat let down by Bioware as a result), to see if I could get some kind of explanation as to why this wasn't in. Don't want to share the contents of a private discussion, but he did say that he wasn't really involved with that team and didn't know about what had happened; don't know how much help he could be, and I'd not like to bother the poor guy too much over something he doesn't have any real say in, you know?

 

 

But what about something similar for the writers of TOR companions? If we could contact them personally and ask for their views/intentions on this, that might be useful.

[Pangeri]

David Gaider, yeah. I actually PM'd him over on BSN after I'd tried the game out in Beta and been disappointed by the lack of same-sex options (and felt somewhat let down by Bioware as a result), to see if I could get some kind of explanation as to why this wasn't in. Don't want to share the contents of a private discussion, but he did say that he wasn't really involved with that team and didn't know about what had happened; don't know how much help he could be, and I'd not like to bother the poor guy too much over something he doesn't have any real say in, you know?

 

 

But what about something similar for the writers of TOR companions? If we could contact them personally and ask for their views/intentions on this, that might be useful.

 

That is actually a really good idea, and probably the most rational thing said so far in this thread.

[Jenovan]

But what about something similar for the writers of TOR companions? If we could contact them personally and ask for their views/intentions on this, that might be useful.

 

Not sure how the companions in TOR are handled (in Dragon Age, they were each done by different writers, but they had a LOT more dialogue in DA...), but if you're on Twitter, or willing to be, I guess, Stephen Reid posted the TOR writers who are on Twitter for following purposes:

 

http://twitter.com/#!/Rockjaw/swtor-writers/members

 

I think they're all Republic writers though (hissss ).

Edited February 14, 2012 by Jenovan

[Suaine]

Back from hospital, I see we've had a long day and it's not even over yet. That's actually kind of depressing, isn't it? Every day we come here, we have to be prepared to fight, and every day we don't come we take the chance of our voices being drowned out.

 

I like the idea of maybe entering a dialogue with some of the writers on a personal basis, but please all remember not to push them or let that frustration show too much. The writers are also employees and have to follow company and team policy. Be nice, be respectful.

 

It's funny that I even have the strength to do this. It's important to me, yeah, and there are issues of representation to consider, but mostly I want to *enjoy* SWTOR. On Sunday I finally found a group to finish up the storyline flashpoints at 50 with my consular and that closure, that feeling of having an ending, even if there will be more later, that was missing from my gaming experience. It was fantastic.

 

And that is actually, I think, my biggest problem with the missing SGR's and why Jan up there had so much trouble. Since we are in a constant state of waiting, with no clear deadlines, it feels like we're constantly on the edge of something. We play with a phantom walking next to us that says "and here, you can't do this". At every turn the game reminds us of the way things ought to be in a perfectly heteronormative society - men love women, women love men, and women have much less power over their own sexuality. Some of our opponents in the argument for SGRAs and same-gender flirts keep calling us out for making things political, but I think it's much more a matter of the political forcing itself on us. I would like to simply enjoy the game for what it is and perhaps I would be able to if romance were not a factor or Bioware didn't have the reputation it has. Chances are I would have stopped playing the moment I ran into icky consent issues, but I would have taken the game for an example of the heterosexist world that the gaming industry still tends to be and played it accordingly. (Again, I did get through 90% of The Witcher without having a social justice induced rage blackout.)

 

What I need, for that phantom to shut up, is an image of what Bioware plans to do. Right now I feel paralyzed in game whenever I'm playing my favorite character. I am afraid to start alts and get into their story only to realize all the things that may be possible but aren't, all the things I want to be possible but may never be. It makes me feel like I'm Schrödinger's Cathar. That state of affairs is frustrating and not a great way to build a lasting foundation. At every turn, I feel like my characters are only temporary because so much of who they are depends on changes Bioware may or may not make in the nebulous future.

 

(Sorry for the maudlin, I've got surgery tomorrow and it's either waxing poetic about the injustice of the world or being terrified out of my mind.)

[Eyjeb]

Hello, I support bioware working towards this.

 

Just noticed the "Advisery" post previously so edited..

The lack of ingame representation for same sex orientation is a real issue for me as a RP player.

 

its also difficult to discuss this issue without being aloud to mention the outside world's political or social influences.

 

its a shame and a disappointment that they put effort in to heterosexual "Flirting" and seemed to forget the other side of the room.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Eyjeb

[Uluain]

I don't think I'll be logging in to play today, being Valentine's Day and all, and SWTOR having opted not to provide me with any option of in-game romance.

 

As far as focussing on the companion story writers, they are ultimately told when to write, and whether to write new content for existing companions or new companions, or write mission lines a b and c. They don't have the say as far as implementing same-gender content. That comes from higher up, and BioWare pretty much hides the names of its decision-makers from us. We don't know who to ask, as Mr. Reid seems not to be much of an ombudsman.

 

Sure, these decision-makers are just people doing a job that happens to be making a game. I am just a person, too, paying to play said game.

 

Bringing me back to a gripe I touched on before.

 

It doesn't matter what was said three years ago or six months ago to the community then. It did matter, as a part of the run-up to release. But we are post launch, now. And I was not privy to those discussions. I am paying to play now. The game as I have it lacks same-gender content. I would like to know why. I am not reassured by vague promises of something, some day. I might not be here, some day.

 

My questions and concerns as a paying customer are - as far as I have any way to determine - being ignored. Without meaningful information and visible progress in this regard, much as I love Star Wars and want to enjoy this game, I won't be spending more money on it.

 

Knowing they know this content ought to be in the game and opted otherwise, and seeing them refuse to discuss it, what could have been a small thing is becoming an actual game-breaker for me. I can't play without seeing opposite-gender content, and I can't see that content without knowing I was excluded from the game as it stands.

 

I'll believe in "some day" when I damn well see it.

[gjpelrine]

If anyone is interested, on facebook they asked which companion you romanced on your Jedi Knight/Sith Warrior, its a poll but it allows comments too, if you want to add your voice to the mix feel free, I know I did.

[kraidy]

Oh, that sucks.

 

My Operative just hit Voss and I actually started to really like that planet.

 

Though, mine is a bit more ruthless so she might go with the DS version.

The person is overreacting. Yes you have to get married, but you have no choice in order to get the info you need. You do not have sex with the guy, nor do you even kiss him. It is a marriage to ensure oyu get info nothing more. Nothing sexual happens at all.

 

It would be no different if you could marry the girl since again, nothing sexual happens nor was this marriage done for pleasure. It was done for business. Shooting up a neutral planet just because you don't want to go deeper undercover is just plain silly.

Edited February 14, 2012 by kraidy

[Suaine]

The person is overreacting. Yes you have to get married, but you have no choice in order to get the info you need. You do not have sex with the guy, nor do you even kiss him. It is a marriage to ensure oyu get info nothing more. Nothing sexual happens at all.

 

It would be no different if you could marry the girl since again, nothing sexual happens nor wast his marriage done for pleasure. It was done for business. Shooting up a neutral planet just because you don't want to go deeper undercover is just plain silly.

 

Getting married, especially being forced into marriage, is a pretty big deal. Frankly, I'm not sure we should put value judgements on which part of the heteronormative pressure makes us crack or define which is the more valid point of no return. I personally don't think it matters whether you get married without sex, have sex without getting married, or have to do both. It's all pretty horrible. The only way out of those particular quest bottle-necks is having a commited relationship with a companion - the female Smuggler who brings Corso gets out of the whole skeezy nobles want in your pants deal on Alderaan, and I assume the same happens to the IA. It is clearly a point where having SGR would save her or at least put it into a different frame.

[gentlepie]

I am in agreement with the toggle for all romance options, if anything. As stated in other posts, this game has some pretty R-rated options that involve torture, violence, and murder. I think it's silly for a parent to even have their kid playing this game yet balk at the option of a same-gender flirt that is an option their children don't have to pick.

 

Toggling off a minority in a game because you can't deal with the reality that not everyone is like you is not an acceptable solution to me. Why not have a race toggle where all characters that are black look white? I think for LGBT gamers, we have been playing hetero-centric games for decades and it is welcome and inevitable that we are represented too. I do not support anyone forcing their sexuality down anyone's throat, even though I have had heterosexuality forced down my throat not only IRL but in the gaming world. I think there should always be in-game options (not filters or toggles) that allow the player to make their own choices.

[kraidy]

Getting married, especially being forced into marriage, is a pretty big deal. Frankly, I'm not sure we should put value judgements on which part of the heteronormative pressure makes us crack or define which is the more valid point of no return. I personally don't think it matters whether you get married without sex, have sex without getting married, or have to do both. It's all pretty horrible. The only way out of those particular quest bottle-necks is having a commited relationship with a companion - the female Smuggler who brings Corso gets out of the whole skeezy nobles want in your pants deal on Alderaan, and I assume the same happens to the IA. It is clearly a point where having SGR would save her or at least put it into a different frame.

You are an agent, you are expected to do things you might not agree with to fulfill your mission. Once you get the info the marriage no longer matters nor is it even brought up anymore. being able to marry the girl Voss would not have changed anything or make any real difference since this is not a romance, it's to get a mission done with no issues from the goverment or to draw attention.

[Jenovan]

I would tentatively point out that the situation on Voss is difficult and possibly repugnant regardless of your character's orientation. Even if there was an SGRA for the IA, and even if being in that relationship would supercede the Voss... options..., what if your character simply wasn't in a relationship? (Whether he or she is too duty-bound, doesn't like any of the options, or whatever!)

 

Interesting point about Alderaan, Suaine, but what about classes who don't have their romances before then? Or is that particular bit of skeeviness strictly Smuggler related?

 

Edit: More directly related to this issue, I remember folks asking about the Voss situation whether their current romances with companions would be affected. ... *search search* A-ha:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=182706

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=125579

(Spoiler warnings of course)

It looks like the romanced companions can make some commentary, but their being there does NOT remove the dilemma.

 

As Kioma pointed out, this can be thought of as more of a characterization exercise than anything else. It's unpleasant, and may challenge your or your character's personal morals, but... isn't it a desirable thing, overall, to get that sort of emotional involvement out of a game?

 

 

... Which is all the more reason we'd like our SGRAs, amirite? (I am totally on-topic I swear)

Edited February 14, 2012 by Jenovan

[Bandydude]

It's sad that I'm accumulating affection for a companion that I can't even talk to, because I'm afraid that it *might* affect my ability to romance them assuming the option is even ever implemented.

 

Seriously Bioware;

 

I think that the most the majority of us posting here are asking for is just a little info.

[Serrain]

Hi all!

 

Been following this issue for a long while now, just haven't been too active on these forums. Thought I'd pop in here and voice my support (I just posted in the Q&A thread too). The addition of same-gender romances was one of the huge reasons why SWTOR caught my eye early on, being that it's, you know, BioWare and all.

 

It really is disappointing playing through the storylines currently, and seeing all these places where the content could be easily added. I ended up rerolling my female Agent as a male so I could experience some of the romantic content the way I wish to (Kaliyo's got issues, but I still love her...), and have also placed my female SW, JK, and Smuggler on hold for now. This game would be utterly amazing if we were given some of the freedom the DA series has, for example.

 

I'm a writer for FORCE Junkies, the fansite, and wrote an editorial about the waiting game we've all been forced into playing. You guys can check it out here. Feel free to share the word.

 

As you can probably tell after reading my babbling, I'm all for the whole "hero-sexual" implementation, and think this would give everyone the freedom they deserve and desire. I am against the toggle idea, and don't even mention it in my article because I think it's unnecessary given the other adult content featured in SWTOR.

 

I wanted to take a moment to thank the creators and supporters of this thread for giving me some great ideas for the article, and for keeping this thread alive. I've placed the link to this thread at the very end of the article in hopes of perhaps reaching more of the community.

 

Anywho, I'll definitely be keeping tabs on this thread more often!

[Zandilar]

The person is overreacting.

 

<SNIP SPOILERS>

 

Shooting up a neutral planet just because you don't want to go deeper undercover is just plain silly.

 

Yep. Pretty much an overreaction, I agree. I was frustrated and annoyed, so I came here and vented...

 

(Thanks, by the way, to Kioma and Stuffystuffs... your advice and sympathy helps. )

 

 

 

But I do actually think you've partially missed the point. I'm playing my agent as having principles. The situation means that she has to ignore her principles either way (she gets light side points for the violation of the spirit of Voss law, or dark side points for shooting everyone in the face). The arranged marriage she's entering into is solely so she can circumvent laws that prevent her from getting what she needs from a certain location that she's perfectly capable of getting herself into and out of without anyone being the wiser, or even killed. (She's an Operative Agent, for crying out loud, she specializes in stealth!)

 

 

Anyway, long story short - this kind of got shoved in my face when I wasn't expecting it. So I came and whinged about it (I even said at the start of my post I was whinging).

 

Also, what I actually wanted was a way to avoid the situation AND the dark side points. There are obvious (grey) alternatives. I mentioned in the spoiler tags that I thought she was capable of getting what she wanted without going through with the thing or shooting everyone in the face.

 

So basically, I've decided to go through with it. Maybe I'll even come to appreciate it eventually, as part of a good story (and having had a good night's sleep, I am actually starting to see it that way - sometimes a bit of angst is good for the soul). But without SGRA/SG Flirting, it's a raw spot. The anti-crowd complain about us wanting to shove our sexuality down their throats, but what they don't realize is that they do that to us already - and this is an example of that.

 

 

Explicitly: You can marry this GUY (or GIRL if your character is male) for dubious reasons, none of which has anything to do with love, but you can't have a relationship with or even flirt with someone of the same gender.

 

[Reil]

I personally don't care if I have same gender flirt options or not. I'm Hetro and there is nothing about same gender choices that would offend me. Hell, the stunted bromance between Quinn and my male Warrior has opened windows to read up on all sorts of things that I never gave much thought to. Things such as the less documented same gender Hetro love affair, for example.

 

It would be "nice" to have the option to choose gender alignment in Character creation and have the game conduct itself accordingly. But it's a convenience issue for me rather than a social one.

 

BW needs to come forward and tell us what they plan to do even if it is still in the preliminary planning stages. All this anger and frustration does not have to continue. The appeased will be free to plan their game and those not appeased can make the decision whether to stay or to go.

 

Hear that CSR in hiding? This goes beyond the game. This is a very serious social hingepoint. It is right to treat it with due consideration but beat on some doors and have them come out and TALK TO US.

[kraidy]

As i said Zandilar, keep on playing you will see that the marriage is all a front, nothing else unless you flirted with the guy. I'm not saying you don't have the right to vent, I was really just clearing it up that nothing sexual happens at all. Also I do agree, it's kinda funny the anti-crowd uses that complaint yet here we have a hetro thing shoved down our throats.

[Uluain]

Hi all!

 

Been following this issue for a long while now, just haven't been too active on these forums. Thought I'd pop in here and voice my support (I just posted in the Q&A thread too).

Thanks for adding your voice to the Q&A.

 

We made a pretty good showing in the Q&A thread this week. I may have missed some, but I count 60 posts asking about same-gender content before the thread was closed today. That's about 5% of all 1,158 questions asked this week, or one out of twenty.

 

That is by no means an insignificant number.

 

I hope that will give the Developer Team incentive to answer. If they don't, then I think it will be pretty obvious they're dodging.

 

So if they continue to duck it, what do we do?

 

I'm a writer for FORCE Junkies, the fansite, and wrote an editorial about the waiting game we've all been forced into playing. You guys can check it out here. Feel free to share the word.

 

Anywho, I'll definitely be keeping tabs on this thread more often!

Thanks for the link and thanks for popping in. Please help us keep the discussion going.

[Bleak_Carrion]

Frankly, sex in Star Wars is misplaced at best. Keep it all out - go somewhere else to get turned on. I want epic adventures. You can delve into sexual exploits just about everywhere else, no real need for it here.