Don't compare TOR to WoW at launch, compare it to Rift.

[Mannic]

which is why it didn't have success. Too many people where reminded of WoW which they wanted to get away from although Trion did a great job of constantly updating content and polishing the stuff that was already there over and over again.

 

I agree with most of what you wrote except this.

 

Rift absolutely is a success, no matter what else happens in its future. It cost $50 million make and generated over $100 million in its first 9 months of existance. It continues to turn a profit for Trion, who is now able to use Rift's profits to finance other projects, as well as maintaining Rift. It's very possible that Rift is the most financially successful MMO to release since WoW.

 

And no, I don't include TOR on that list yet because it has a much, much steeper hill to climb before it start turning an actual profit for EA, and even if it does become profitable a huge chunk of those profits will go to LA.

 

TOR needs to be roughly twice as successful in terms of raw units sold and susbscribers to be as successful as Rift has been.

 

People forget there are two primary numbers that determine whether you are profitable. Revenues and expenses. You can't measure success without looking at BOTH numbers becuase they are both equally important. It doesn't matter if your game generates $150 million in revenues; if it cost you $200 million to make, you're losing $50 million.

[Vasilas]

It is so obvious that the vast majority of the capital to make TOR went into voice acting and music, it's almost nauseating to think of what the game could have been if they'd put that money into dynamic worlds, a better game engine, and testing of end game content instead.

 

My thoughts through your words...

[Azumio]

Yeah I sure hope Mythic has a huge patch for biowares game..

 

Mythic was bought by EA and shoved into Bioware for name and reputation purposes.

 

This game was made by the same guys who made Warhammer. Mythic. Just with a Bioware name super-imposed on it.

[Tool_of_Society]

there is no debate, rifts launch was >>>>>>>>swtors launch

 

rift fails at other points (their 2 buttongameplay due to macros with prio chains is plain idiocy) but their launch and their quality based on their limited budget is amazing. Swtor has had a huge budget but all we got was voice overs thats most of us space bar through after the first time..not a particulary good investment.

I had a 50 of every class with at least HK capable gear for every possible role. Having experienced nearly every common spec and several non commons specs I have to say you're a bit off. The one button warrior spec is now a couple buttons and the best spec even more. Even the MM based ranged rogue spec requires a couple buttons (I prefered the ranger marks hybrid spec which used around 6 or so buttons) A good sab dancer has positional work to do (Never really used that spec much in RAID). Even the simplest pyro spec has a several button rotation with the top DPS spec being a twister lol. Shaman cleric can damned near get by with two buttons. Druid might be in a similar boat depending on how it got changed. I quit in December but when I played during the free weekend not much had changed.

[gaalon]

I agree with the OP.

 

Rift is a 10 times better WOW-clone then SWTOR. And Rift was made by a fairly small no-name company compared to BW.

 

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that BW spent 100 million on the Star Wars franchise/IP and another 100 million on hyping the game with advertisements. That left 5 million for voice acting and 500k for the actual MMO part.

 

And it shows.

[Aethyriel]

that's why I always questioned TOR's staying power. "story" and everything is great, but how many times can you experience "the story", a handful different quests per planet make maybe 5% of the whole leveling experience, the rest is the same. if you remove the story, you get a buggy and sometimes shoddy version of wow's endgame - ironically people mention all the time how great TOR is because wow was just boring with the instance grind...

 

mmos will always end in grinding, there is ab****ely no way to constantly introduce new quests, stories, content etc to keep you from grinding in pvp or pve raids. The cost for the design team would just be absurd for no real gain. Swtor especially will have huge problems with delivering new content on a massive scale because of the VO and ultimately they did NOT improve questing at all. While the talking was fun in the beginning and there were a few twists here and there, since lv 20 every damn quest I got was the same as in any other mmo I've played and my characters responses were always the same - makes you wonder how it'S better saying " I really am the best" or "just show me where the fun is" over and over and over againinstead of not saying anything at all.

[Maniacal]

yeah rift is a great game, i mean Trion realy did a great job cutting and paste every thing from wow

 

must be great been in a game from Trion who are so happy to pick up the scraps of food that Blizzard throw at it.

 

Rift = WoW clone

 

Spoken like a someone who has obviously NEVER played RIFT at all. Way to go champ!

[Liamo]

I will not compare it to Rift.

 

Rift had a good launch.

 

This game has the worse launch in MMO history.

 

Only people who hail it as a good launch either got in on the first day (people that preorder instantly), never logged off or are just Biodrones.

 

You must've played a different game. I have some issues with the game but launch had no issues for me and the 3 other accounts my family has.

 

Yes, I did get in on the first day but what would that matter? Launch is launch.

[ArmchairMagpie]

Disclaimer: I love TOR. I want it to do well. We criticize the game because we care, at least some of us. I'm also a long time MMO player and have been there for countless launch days. I speak from experience.

 

If you compare Rift launch and TOR's, you'll notice how unpolished parts of TOR are. In particular:

 

- The antiquated and rigid UI, to me the #1 problem that affects everyone's quality of life

- Lack of combat log

- No LFG/LFD system

- Ability delay (mostly fixed)

- Animation inconsistencies for abilities (Trooper mortar volley), that cause severe gameplay issues

- Poor and otherwise missing guild features

- Barebones auction house

- Empty planets on high pop servers

- and so on...

 

All things that Rift had working in MUCH better state than TOR. Not saying Rift was perfect, but compared to TOR, it felt like a much more polished game at launch. Both TOR and Rift are trying to grab some market share from Blizzard. It's a better comparison.

 

Also, comparing TOR to WoW at launch is like comparing Windows 7 to Windows 95 or something. That's not how technology or software works. When a new piece of software comes out, it's expected to have features and polish of the CURRENT competition, not what was in the market 7 years ago.

 

Here's hoping Bioware gets their act together soon, or I see some server consolidation in the very near future.

 

Actually you can't really compare any game on the same basis because games with different line-up of features have different systems - also being designed differently - intertwined.

 

Bioware wanted a game where all these systems (bar Legacy) work instead of a fully fleshed out MMO in every aspect so they could impose quantity while ignoring quality for a while. The result is we have many unpolished subsystems.

 

Also it didn't help that Bioware made fairly over-exaggerated promises and even went as far as giving public lessons on how to make a MMO and then ignoring the most of them.

 

I think most of the current criticisms wouldn't an issue if they were a bit more modest and self-criticial and more thorough with their Q&A testing procedures. But even pride will have a fall.

 

I am quite sure we will eventually see all the features which are perceived - partially rightfully so - as missing. However I am afraid they still didn't notice that even if a comparison between MMO launches would work that simple - and in parts things happening 7 years ago still apply - people are far less eager to develop brand loyalty these days and far less forgiving and in fact less lenient. A "coming in three months" worked perfectly 7 years ago these days it's only working if it adds to the prevalent level of satisfaction. In short: Bioware is racing against thinning levels of patience of a playerbase which could be swayed to abandon ship at whim once a new shiny and overhyped thing appears on the horizon and is within reach now.

 

TL;DR People are less patient today, Bioware over-exaggerated their own capabilities in regards of MMO design despite giving lessons to others. Game launched can't be compared on 1:1 basis at least not when system design of different game show large differences but some criterias still work.

[gaalon]

Rift = WoW clone

 

And SWTOR is what exactly...? A clone of EVE online..? Don't pull my leg... SWTOR is just as much a WOW-clone as Rift - it's just a really really bad one (with even less new features then Rift I might add - at least they had a cool class system... what does SWTOR have? Mediocre voice acting that is basically just an expensive time-sink to motivate people to run the done-to-death FedEx and kill X of Y quests... wow... how impressive).

 

SWTOR is nearly identical to WOW in oh-so-many ways... The game mechanics are virtually identical (just bugged beyond believe), the classes are virtually identical, hell, even the gosh darn spells are direct copies of WOW-spells.

 

Anyone who thinks SWTOR is not a WOW-clone has clearly never played WOW.

Edited February 9, 2012 by gaalon

[Graburr]

mmos will always end in grinding, there is ab****ely no way to constantly introduce new quests, stories, content etc to keep you from grinding in pvp or pve raids.

 

I know.

 

in item based MMOs it's the chase of purple pixels at one point. however, there are still variations to the formula. In rift I can farm gear upgrades how I want, solo/duo/etc., how I want. in wow/tor it boils down to do dailies till the queue pops.

 

I'm just a little bit annoyed by people who argue STORY is the best feature of tor (actually, they're not wrong, which makes it even more sad). but every story ends sooner or later - or it turns into a daily soap.

[Goretzu]

Rift didn't have that at launch either, but it was added rather quickly (only server-wide at first).

PvP was x-server straight away though iirc.

 

Rift was the most polished and complete MMORPG I've seen at launch and the added stuff at an amazing rate in the first 6 months too.

 

Still didn't help them, although Rift isn't unsuccessful, it's not successful by WoW standards (I'm not sure any MMORPG ever will be though).

[JRandim]

I wouldn't call space combat just tacked on.. After all it is an entire different mode of game play in an MMO.. I know of no other MMO that has a 2nd mode of play.. Rift doesn't have it.. WOW doesn't have it.. As part of an MMO.. Space combat is just fine and quite good in my opinion.. As a stand alone?? No.. It wouldn't be very good.. We would most diffenately get free flight like XWA..

 

So space combat isn't just an addon.. It is something that the competition doesn't have.. WOW and Rift can't even come close to space combat.. So I think it is more than just an addon.. But that is my opinion..

 

I will give you that, it is a completly different mode. But much like the rest of the game, it's poorly executed. If you're gonna do something, do it well. I mean with such a simple system of a predetermined flight route and something you're telling me they couldn't do something more than reskin the same mission over and over? I mean your space missions in the 30s and 40s and EXACTLY THE SAME as the ones you did at 15-30. The only difference being that enemy fighters now take 3-4 shots to kill instead of 1-2. The space combat was a great novelty at first. But it was nothing more than that, a novelty.

 

I just don't understand how a game like Rift from such a smaller company and budget had so much more to offer. I mean SWtOR doesn't even have a /roll /random function. Seriously bioware?

[Vealage]

RIFT was incredibly polished at release, and I wish every modern-MMO would follow its lead.

[Zyanzor]

Disclaimer: I love TOR. I want it to do well. We criticize the game because we care, at least some of us. I'm also a long time MMO player and have been there for countless launch days. I speak from experience.

 

If you compare Rift launch and TOR's, you'll notice how unpolished parts of TOR are. In particular:

 

- The antiquated and rigid UI, to me the #1 problem that affects everyone's quality of life

- Lack of combat log

- No LFG/LFD system

- Ability delay (mostly fixed)

- Animation inconsistencies for abilities (Trooper mortar volley), that cause severe gameplay issues

- Poor and otherwise missing guild features

- Barebones auction house

- Empty planets on high pop servers

- and so on...

 

All things that Rift had working in MUCH better state than TOR. Not saying Rift was perfect, but compared to TOR, it felt like a much more polished game at launch. Both TOR and Rift are trying to grab some market share from Blizzard. It's a better comparison.

 

Also, comparing TOR to WoW at launch is like comparing Windows 7 to Windows 95 or something. That's not how technology or software works. When a new piece of software comes out, it's expected to have features and polish of the CURRENT competition, not what was in the market 7 years ago.

 

Here's hoping Bioware gets their act together soon, or I see some server consolidation in the very near future.

 

Rift = WoW clone....if you want a WoW clone then go play Rift or WoW. Problem solved.

[gaalon]

I wouldn't call space combat just tacked on.. After all it is an entire different mode of game play in an MMO.. I know of no other MMO that has a 2nd mode of play.. Rift doesn't have it.. WOW doesn't have it.. As part of an MMO.. Space combat is just fine and quite good in my opinion..

 

You never played SWG, did you?

 

They had space combat that was actually fairly fun. You could gain levels in space combat (which gave you new skills independently of your regular class skills) and you could actually move your ship yourself.

 

The crap that is given to us as space combat in SWTOR would have been impressive in the early 90ies. But in the year 2012? It's a bad joke and nothing more. Even a total fanboi would have to admit that.

 

 

Also:

Rift = WoW clone....if you want a WoW clone then go play Rift or WoW. Problem solved.

 

You never played WOW, did you? Otherwise you'd have noticed that SWTOR is just a bad copy of WOW. The games are virtually identical. See my previous post if you want details.

 

But anyone who thinks SWTOR is not a WOW clone is either blind, totally incompetent or simply never played WOW (and yes, in your case this is a multiple choice answer).

[Zyanzor]

And SWTOR is what exactly...? A clone of EVE online..? Don't pull my leg... SWTOR is just as much a WOW-clone as Rift - it's just a really really bad one (with even less new features then Rift I might add - at least they had a cool class system... what does SWTOR have? Mediocre voice acting that is basically just an expensive time-sink to motivate people to run the done-to-death FedEx and kill X of Y quests... wow... how impressive).

 

SWTOR is nearly identical to WOW in oh-so-many ways... The game mechanics are virtually identical (just bugged beyond believe), the classes are virtually identical, hell, even the gosh darn spells are direct copies of WOW-spells.

 

Anyone who thinks SWTOR is not a WOW-clone has clearly never played WOW.

 

Been playing WoW since dec 04. I don't see anything that resembles WoW. You say the spells are identical? I don't recall any class in WoW that can shoot lasers, mortars, or force choke? I don't recall having the ability to send my pet out to gather materials for my crafting or clean out my bags. I don't remember hearing quest givers having a dialog and actually speaking to me making my gaming experience more interactive.

 

I don't recall boinking some of my quest givers either. I can't remember the last time I flew my space ship into outer space in WoW to do some space missions. I also don't remember my characters facial features and eyes changing because of the choice I make when I do a quest.

 

The only thing I see that resembles WoW is the talent tree.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Zyanzor

[ethanfel]

RIFT was incredibly polished at release, and I wish every modern-MMO would follow its lead.

 

Yeah right... or not.

 

You had to have et high end config for enjoying a minimum the graphism, even so, the perf in pvp was very bad, it was realy hard to recognise foe from allies and i don't talk about the world event (who fail many time, remember the opening of the second raid "well we skip the event sorry we don't know how to make it work, kudo" of the amasingly "i can only see 10 personne around myself even tough we are 100 or more".

 

The pvp was far worse than swtor and the pve was nearly good, but trashland and the cap system "if you go farther than a number the stats serv no purpose".

 

Finally the great talent system with many three who were useless and more importantly the OP Class in pve and the useless one like the warrior.

 

Rift was far from being polished.

[Zyanzor]

You never played SWG, did you?

 

They had space combat that was actually fairly fun. You could gain levels in space combat (which gave you new skills independently of your regular class skills) and you could actually move your ship yourself.

 

The crap that is given to us as space combat in SWTOR would have been impressive in the early 90ies. But in the year 2012? It's a bad joke and nothing more. Even a total fanboi would have to admit that.

 

 

Also:

 

 

You never played WOW, did you? Otherwise you'd have noticed that SWTOR is just a bad copy of WOW. The games are virtually identical. See my previous post if you want details.

 

But anyone who thinks SWTOR is not a WOW clone is either blind, totally incompetent or simply never played WOW (and yes, in your case this is a multiple choice answer).

 

 

There's no doubt you hate SWTOR, my question to you is...why are you here? Bored? Trolling? Trying to make up for your short comings? What is it that drives you to come to these forums and bash a game you don't like?

[ArmchairMagpie]

Rift was the most polished and complete MMORPG I've seen at launch and the added stuff at an amazing rate in the first 6 months too.

 

Still didn't help them, although Rift isn't unsuccessful, it's not successful by WoW standards (I'm not sure any MMORPG ever will be though).

 

RIFT is successful, it's exactly where a MMO should be these days in terms of playerbase size and popularity. It should serve as beacon for everyone trying to release a polished MMO these days.

[Graburr]

You say the spells are identical? I don't recall any class in WoW that can shoot lasers, mortars, or force choke?

 

oh wow....

 

also: come back when you've been lvl 50 for a week.

[Bumblebrah]

"No LFG/LFD system"

 

You can keep this out of TOR thank you very much That feature ruined any sense of community and respect players used to have for one another and made it a gaint ninja fest at the end of every dungeon because chances are you would never see them again.

 

Not to mention the fact it kills exploration and questing and replaces it with sitting in town all day spamming LFG button and doing nothing but dungeon's all day which does get old after a while. SO you can keep that feature out of this game and all future MMORPG's.

[Zyanzor]

Blizzard games = if it's not polished they don't release it (building hype for free); also tends to draw a larger crowd, and also tends to be grander in scale

 

The rest = publish publish publish. profit.

 

You think WoW was polished when they first launched it?......hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaha......thank you....it felt good to laugh like that.

[Zyanzor]

oh wow....

 

also: come back when you've been lvl 50 for a week.

 

Was that your attempt at debating what I said?

Edited February 9, 2012 by Zyanzor

[gaalon]

Been playing WoW since dec 04. I don't see anything that resembles WoW. You say the spells are identical? I don't recall any class in WoW that can shoot lasers, mortars, or force choke? I don't recall having the ability to send my pet out to gather materials for my crafting or clean out my bags. I don't remember hearing quest givers having a dialog and actually speaking to me making my gaming experience more interactive. I don't recall boinking some of my quest givers either. I can't remember the last time I flew my space ship into outer space in WoW to do some space missions. I also don't remember my characters facial features and eyes changing because of the choice I make when I do a quest.

 

The only thing I see that resembles WoW is the talent tree.

 

Innervate = Pennance

Resurge = Riptide

Static Shield = Power Word: Shield

Dark Heal = Flash Heal

Dark Infusion = Greater Heal

Revivication = Effloressence / Holy Word AOE Heal

Kolto Shell = Water Shield (or was it Earth Shield?)

Slow Release Med Pack = Lifebloom

Kolto Injection (instant from Operative) = instant from WOW druid (forgot the name)

 

 

As I said: blind, incompetent or never played WOW.