Real reason why Project is inferior to Shock

[BountyFodder]

I think it is arrogant to force your opinion onto others like you people do.

 

There is a difference between forcing opinions and voicing concerns. If you dont agree with the opinions, refute them with your facts. Show us the factual data as to why the disparity between project and shock is a non issue, when these classes are meant to be mirrors.

 

If you can't do that, rather think twice before posting generalised insults at everyone who's concerns are not the same as yours. Nobody is forcing you to read the thread, or agree with anything. It is a discussion about the abilities, so discuss.

[Vales]

There is a difference between forcing opinions and voicing concerns. If you dont agree with the opinions, refute them with your facts. Show us the factual data as to why the disparity between project and shock is a non issue, when these classes are meant to be mirrors.

 

If you can't do that, rather think twice before posting generalised insults at everyone who's concerns are not the same as yours. Nobody is forcing you to read the thread, or agree with anything. It is a discussion about the abilities, so discuss.

 

Where is your factual data other than the delay which in itself proves nothing? Can you prove with hard fact that groups with 1 or more sages has a significantly lower win chance in group PvP which is tied solely on the fact that project has a delay?

I am waiting.

 

So far everythign I see are gross exaggerations and absurd claims based on nothing more than anecdotal evidence and one fact that Project has a delay.

As usual with any official public MMO forum nearly everything gets blown out of proportion.

There was a reason why for example top PvPers in WoW chose to have their own forum with decent restrictions so not every clueless PvPer could come in there and spout crap 24/7 there.

Other than that people like Dyvim who already got disproven hard in other threads argue aesthetics and if it "fits" the consular class based upon their extremly narrow interpretation of the movies not realizing their arguments are trashed by the simple fact that Lucas Arts gave green light to the development of the consular class and therefore it is perfectly canon.

Whatever their opinion is on the matter is completely worthless.

Lucas Arts > Dyvim and the rest of the QQers when it comes to canon.

 

Oh since we are at it Dyvim forget about trying to engage me ever again in your useless drivel you are on ignore.

I tire of people who insult a whole playerbase in a regular basis based only on your flawed and narrow interpretaion of a sliver of the full Star Wars lore ignoring canon from other sources and outright insulting anyone not of your opinion anytime you can.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Vales

[deusBAAL]

Bioware

 

PLEASE do NOT nerf PVE gameplay experience because of PVP!!!

[BountyFodder]

Where is your factual data other than the delay which in itself proves nothing? Can you prove with hard fact that groups with 1 or more sages has a significantly lower win chance in group PvP which is tied solely on the fact that project has a delay?

I am waiting.

 

So far everythign I see are gross exaggerations and absurd claims based on nothing more than anecdotal evidence and one fact that Project has a delay.

As usual with any official public MMO forum nearly everything gets blown out of proportion.

There was a reason why for example top PvPers in WoW chose to have their own forum with decent restrictions so not every clueless PvPer could come in there and spout crap 24/7 there.

Other than that people like Dyvim who already got disproven hard in other threads argue aesthetics and if it "fits" the consular class based upon their extremly narrow interpretation of the movies not realizing their arguments are trashed by the simple fact that Lucas Arts gave green light to the development of the consular class and therefore it is perfectly canon.

Whatever their opinion is on the matter is completely worthless.

Lucas Arts > Dyvim and the rest of the QQers when it comes to canon.

 

Oh since we are at it Dyvim forget about trying to engage me ever again in your useless drivel you are on ignore.

I tire of people who insult a whole playerbase in a regular basis based only on your flawed and narrow interpretaion of a sliver of the full Star Wars lore ignoring canon from other sources and outright insulting anyone not of your opinion anytime you can.

 

I couldn't care less about canon and SW lore. I fully agree that the animation is awesome and that it should stay in some way shape or form.

 

My factual based arguments are these:

 

1) In civil war, to prevent someone from capping the guns while running from off the platform. The quickest way is to jump to gain LoS, while spamming an instant cast. So that already cuts out the Tele Throw alternative previously suggested.

That leaves slow. Sure we can use slow. But that now prevents us from having that snare utility for the next 12 seconds when we might need it. Say I use my slow and an assassin or ops pops out of stealth and starts beating down on me. I have no choice but to opt immediately for my knockback, regardless of whether I am near an edge to gain more tactical advantage by knocking him off it. A Sorc has that option to use slow and kite as his spell is not on CD because he could use shock.

 

2) I have personally now had 22 occasions where I double KO'd on someone in various forms of pvp. Obviously always a melee type class, where you are trying your best to keep your back away from them so that they have less chance to use "must be behind" type abilities. Or simply trying to kite them. I have put slow on them, I have used PoM proc with Mind Crush, I now have one more instant cast to use whilst still kiting, project. I hit project as my last resort instant cast. I lift the rock, My opponent hits his ability and kills me, my rock then lands and kills him.

I have a sorc that I played to level 40 and have never had this happen aside from DoT dmg which is to be expected. I have on many occassions managed to kill my opponent with 1% life left myself, because shock landed before he had the chance to use his next global cooldown.

 

If I have had that happen to me 22 times as a valor rank 37, surely many more are experiencing the same thing. And if many more are experiencing it, then surely it is a problem.

 

3) And here is the real kicker, the one fact that you cannot refute, no matter how hard you try. The other stuff you might say is anecdotal to a degree. This is a cold hard fact that you are just going to have to accept.

Sorc and Sage are mirror classes. Their skill trees say the same thing, their abilities say the same thing apart from their names (for canon purposes of course) Their stats level the same. For all intents and purposes, if this was wow it would be a mage and a mage, identical in design and concept.

As you seem fond of saying, Lucas arts signed off on the game design of sage and sorc being mirrors. If they are meant to be mirrors then the current implementation is broken, end of story.

 

I want the project animation to stay because it feels awesome. That is why I have suggested switching the disturbance and project animations. Both already have the code inside the game to handle the procced double cast. You could get away with making the disturbance dmg happen instantly even though the animation lands 0.2 seconds later. And if you could get the cast animation on disturbance to be the pulling of the rock out the ground, then on cast completion chucking it, that would work perfectly. All problems solved. People who like the animation get to keep it, although in a different form, except for shadows of course. People who have a problem with the lack of exact mirror abilities get their instant project dmg.

 

But no matter how you slice it, mirror classes need to be mirrors, not fun fare mirror room mirrors that distort you, but actual mirror classes.

[Vales]

1.) To prevent capture you have:

Force Slow

TK Throw

Sever Force (Balance)

TK Wave Proccs

Force Quake

Saber Strike (If by chance we are in melee range)

Double Strike (If by chance we are in melee range)

Really we have more than enough tools to instantly prevent capture there is no need to mention this. If Project would be the only instant we have I'd give you a point but like this?

I can safely say unless I got killed in less than 2 seconds or CCed to hell while my stun/mezz breaker was on CD no one could ever cap when I was close unless I was lacking attention in which case it had nothing to do with the class but me being bad.

 

2.) Double KOs never happend to me in about 30 Valor ranks. Never ever. Furthermore 1v1 is absolutely and utterly meaningless. I gave the conditions for a meaningful factual evidence which could persuade me to say this is so important it should be top 3 of the things Bioware has to fix right now.

So far you are about as close to it as the earth is to Alpha Centauri.

 

3.) I wonder what people think you can consider broken. If that is your definition of being "broken" then I guess you will tell me now that a car with a 1mm scratch on the roof is broken too.

In this regard I better ignore further posts from you, too because after 15 years of gaming and forums I am so damn sick and tired of gross exaggerations it is not funny anymore.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Vales

[BountyFodder]

1.) To prevent capture you have:

Force Slow

TK Throw

Sever Force (Balance)

TK Wave Proccs

Force Quake

Saber Strike (If by chance we are in melee range)

Double Strike (If by chance we are in melee range)

Really we have more than enough tools to instantly prevent capture there is no need to mention this. If Project would be the only instant we have I'd give you a point but like this?

I can safely say unless I got killed in less than 2 seconds or CCed to hell while my stun/mezz breaker was on CD no one could ever cap when I was close unless I was lacking attention in which case it had nothing to do with the class but me being bad.

 

2.) Double KOs never happend to me in about 30 Valor ranks. Never ever. Furthermore 1v1 is absolutely and utterly meaningless. I gave the conditions for a meaningful factual evidence which could persuade me to say this is so important it should be top 3 of the things Bioware has to fix right now.

So far you are about as close to it as the earth is to Alpha Centauri.

 

3.) I wonder what people think you can consider broken. If that is your definition of being "broken" then I guess you will tell me now that a car with a 1mm scratch on the roof is broken too.

In this regard I better ignore further posts from you, too because after 15 years of gaming and forums I am so damn sick and tired of gross exaggerations it is not funny anymore.

 

Sigh, broken in this context does not mean, ahhhhhh the sky is falling. Broken means, not working as it should, if the design philosophy of mirror classes is to be upheld.

 

1) You didn't read my description properly.

Force slow, Being forced to use it above Project due to instantaneous dmg reduces our utility and survivability for the next 12 seconds as we cannot use slow on someone that actually needs it put on them.

TK throw cannot be spammed while jumping and moving, therefore you need to run 1.5 more seconds up the steps in civil war just to cast it. And no matter how good you are or how good your latency is, you will always be a few 10ths of a second slower with TK throw on flat ground than on continuously running in while spamming an instant. Those 10ths, while they wont always make the difference, CAN still make the difference every now and then.

Sever force is talented so is a moot point, we are talking about the base class here not talented skills.

Force quake, takes about 1 second to do its first tick of dmg, if you have the time left on the planter/cappers cast bar to wait that long, then you can use project as it is. So again, not a valid skill to use if the capper has 0.5 seconds left to cap.

Melee abilities, If you are in melee range as a sage and the capper/bomber has 0.5 seconds left, you are playing poorly, you should have been able to interrupt that from a distance with other abilities.

 

So in practice, the only ability that we have available to us, to prevent a cap/bomb with 0.5 seconds left, while running from outside of range to within range is slow as an instant cast spam. Because if you tried to take the few 10ths of a second to get within range and hit TK THrow, as luck would have it you will possibly be knocked back or stunned by another opponent.

 

2) I dont know what to say then. If you have never experienced it, then maybe all of your deaths are either you being ganked, or by players much much stronger that simply kill you before you get them low enough. Or where you have already lost considerable amounts of health.

As far as 1v1 being utterly meaningless. Now you are asserting claims that are just not true. 1v1 means everything even in group matches. If I peel a player off a gun site, and manage to kill him alone, while my teammates cap or are left with a 2v3 battle. My winning that 1v1 will mean the difference between me being there to help defend the objective straight away, or my taking 10-20 seconds to respawn and get there.

It can also be the difference between me saving a teammate before he is killed or my animation arriving too late to hit before the opponent gets their next GCD in.

 

You never experiencing it is a neutral factor. Others that do experience it is a negative factor. There is no positive factor to factor into this equation, so when averaged out. The net experience is negative, therefore it needs to be corrected.

 

3) Already addressed in my first sentence, the sky is not falling. There are other things that need fixing first. But the sooner we as a class make our case on this issue, the sooner it will be resolved. According to BW's priority list. They are not going to fix it sooner than other issues just because we bring it up now. But they might leave it alone much longer than need be if we don't point it out now. The second BW posts a response that says:

We are aware of the issue, we have a solution that will make it instant cast and hit instantly, we just need time to fix other issues first, but it will be addressed. Then we can all back off a little. Until such time, we need to make sure that BW are aware of the issue, however minor it may appear to some.

[sanctified]

Would it be fixed if its damage was delivered before the animation was finished? Spells worked like that in world of warcraft. Anyone else have fond memories of running away from a heat seeking fireball all the way across elwynn?

[BountyFodder]

That would fix it, and yes, fond fond memories, or of flying away from a shadowbolt that did its dmg ages ago.

 

It would fix it, but I think many people are not very keen on dmg before spell effect. To me it would be the easiest fix. But leave you feeling a little disconnected from your project ability.

[Dyvim]

Would it be fixed if its damage was delivered before the animation was finished? Spells worked like that in world of warcraft. Anyone else have fond memories of running away from a heat seeking fireball all the way across elwynn?

 

What happens when someone stealths before the magic rock hits? They still take damage? Or what if they use stealth plus damage immunity (force camou with talents)? They still take damage before the rock hits?

 

That just makes an already inappropriate animation all the more inappropriate. Why is it inappropriate? It fails as a mirror skill because of the animation. The animation cheats the environment and looks ridiculous half the time. Or all of the time unless you want to believe that there is always something at your feet to pull up and throw...lol

 

The only reasonable solution, IF you want to keep junk throwing - and there is NO need to keep junk throwing, it is ANYTHING but a jedi signature skill - is to switch out the disturbance and project ani's.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Dyvim

[Dyvim]

...

Oh since we are at it Dyvim forget about trying to engage me ever again in your useless drivel you are on ignore...

 

I love the idea of having no interaction with you whatsoever. You just arent that bright. And you wouldnt know a fact if it hit you in the nose.

 

But just who engaged whom in this thread, genius? Let me refresh your troubled memory...

 

Awww still whining about Project and TK Throw? Poor you.

 

That is YOU not keeping your mouth shut and trolling my posts.

 

Few other things...NO ONE wrecked my arguments, not in the least. Especially not you. I destroyed your fallacies with facts, and then I crammed the movies and the official wiki's down your throat. Your response was to say that "you shouldnt pay that much attention to old movies". Yes, brilliant, except they are the ultimate canon.

 

Too bad no facts are actually ever on your side...but you do have a penchant for projecting your bad deeds on others...

 

...

I tire of people who insult a whole playerbase in a regular basis...

 

Oh really, you mean like YOU did here?

 

They are close to being equal. For sure closer than the crybabies in this thread want you want to make believe.

 

So anyone that isnt happy that project has a damage delay and shock doesnt is a crybaby? Brilliant. So much for not insulting a whole playerbase.

 

You fail. Repeatedly. And you just arent that good at making arguments and using facts, if you had them to support you. Need another example?

 

1.) ...

Really we have more than enough tools to instantly prevent capture there is no need to mention this....

 

Yes, except we have ONE FEWER than SITH have...and its not just any skill...it the first learned ranged skill on a SIX second cooldown. And just HOW MANY TALENTS impact it and improve it? For sages? For Shadows? WELL OVER TEN. Sith have, in their BASIC abilities, not bringing talent abilities into it, instant damage, delayed damage, and channeled damage. Consulars get delayed damage, delayed damage, and channeled damage. Why? Why tolerate the inequity when we have to live with the mirror concept in all its other flaws? Answer is there is no reason too. If we have to live with the drawback of a jedi class that was designed to be sith...instead of a jedi class designed from the ground up, and suffer that mirror drawback, then we should at least get the perks of the mirror paradigm...

Edited February 23, 2012 by Dyvim

[Dyvim]

Sigh...

 

No need to try and reason with Vales, it is pointless. Anyone who actually suggests a RANGED class should have to get into melee range and swing a saber to use an instant skill for an interrupt is laughable. When we have a "instant" skill that is off cooldown every 6 secs, that SHOULD be doing instant damage like its mirror counterpart. But it doesnt, hence it is broken, because it fails to follow the mirror paradigm. Sith have it, reps dont...why?

 

So then it comes down to people that are willing to accept the damage delay because they want to throw the magic rocks soooo bad. And here is where the lore comes in...WHY do they want, as a jedi, to throw junk? It is not a jedi signature skill, and never has been. In the movies every Sith does it. Not jedi. Yoda does it once in a reflective manner after palpitane hurls 7+ senate cars at him. In fact, if you count, Sith throw objects 18x more often than jedi do. Sith throw objects MORE than they choke OR use lightning. It is a SIGNATURE sith skill. Thats why another poster thinks of Darth Maul when he sees it.

 

You can go further...In the 4+ games of the jedi knight series, where force powers were classified and enumerated, throwing junk was a DARKSIDE skill if it was included at all. Then you have the KOTORS...then SWG. Tons of jedi/sith abilities. TONS. NOT ONE TIME was junk throwing EVEN NEUTRAL, much less lightside, IF it was even included. NOT ONCE.

 

So does lore matter? Well, since this is an IP based game, YES, it matters. People have expectations for jedi and sith and they ARE based, first and foremost, off the movies, the ultimate canon. I think BW probably agrees, since they put in the lightside/darkside color crystal restrictions. Sith use red predominantly. Are there exceptions...sure, but to stay true to the IP, you have to stay within the basics...and those basics include the simple fact that jedi arent junk throwers, and if anyone is, it is the Sith.

 

Yes, lucas approved the game as every other game in the jedi knight series, kotors, swg, etc., was also approved. Yes, SWG. Lucas approved the NGE too, btw. So lucas approval of something isnt exactly a mark of genius. Back to this game. It is full of examples of things that arent quite right...like the prevalence of black core lightsabers. And make no mistake, things in this game WILL change, and I am willing to bet that project and its delay are ON the chopping block.

 

Bottom line...mirrors matter, mechanics matter, lore matters. The current project ani violates ALL OF THESE. All of them. But since some people do like it, AND the consular class has to live with the fact that the inquisitors were done first/best and consulars are kind of getting sloppy seconds when it comes to design...well, switching chunk a clunker with disturbance seems reasonable...the clunkers get the activation time they desperately need, AND both consular starting/main/signature skills (project and throw) will not longer be based on throwing debris, a Sith signature move.

 

OR just replacing chunk a clunker with saber throw. Having a double bladed saber throw for shadows would be AWESOME, and in line with lore, as it is a well established neutral ability. And it is already in game. If a knight cant learn it until the 30s, it makes sense that consulars would be able to learn it much earlier, and what makes MORE sense for them to throw?

Edited February 23, 2012 by Dyvim

[seektravota]

you're missing the point. the real question on project is...

HOW THE HELL YOU COME UP WITH THOSE ROCKS??!!!! like anywhere you want!!!

[Nerelith]

so the coolest Jedi force animation you want to change because people are using tactics and sometimes outplay you.

 

 

I vote no, for the love of God don't change the animation bioware!

 

So because the animation is cool, you want to make the lynchpin of many player's PvP strategy... predictable... and avoidable? I also think this needs work.

 

here's a thought, keep the animation...but.. the moment a Player uses Project, disable the opponent's abilities, so he has to sit still while the barrage takes it's first hit... But saying " I want project to be completely predictable, and avoidable.... because the animation looks cool!!! I mean... really???

[BountyFodder]

you're missing the point. the real question on project is...

HOW THE HELL YOU COME UP WITH THOSE ROCKS??!!!! like anywhere you want!!!

 

Anyone playing a fantasy game and then complaining about bends in reality always makes me laugh.

 

While I agree that pulling rocks out of nowhere is not realistic, I could care less about how realistic the animation is. All I care about is that the classes are mirrored.

[Dyvim]

Anyone playing a fantasy game and then complaining about bends in reality always makes me laugh.

 

While I agree that pulling rocks out of nowhere is not realistic, I could care less about how realistic the animation is. All I care about is that the classes are mirrored.

 

Fantasy games still have to be true to their mythology and must avoid needless breaks in the suspension of disbelief. Its one thing to accept the concept of the Force. Its another to accept the idea that there are magic droid scrap yards or magic rocks buried at your feet, wherever you are...that is just ridiculous. Needlessly ridiculous.

 

So others do care, since this game is based on cinematic combat. Its one of the games hallmarks. Not only is the animation unrealistic, it is not even particularly jedi-like. This is an IP game from one of the greatest IP's ever, the lore matters...this isnt WoW time, where the ink isnt even dry on the mythos.

 

So as I said, the animation fails the mirror test, the mechanics test (including believability), and the lore test. Its not surprising that these three different failures bother people to different degrees. They all three bug the crap out of me. So unless BW is running some version of "No Animation Left Behind", this thing needs to get a big fat "F" and get tossed.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Dyvim

[Dyvim]

Repost from another thread, but very salient to this one as well...

 

This was posted today in the Dev Q&A...gives me hope, at least for project getting changed...lets hope the animation team has been scanning the boards and has at least watched 1 or 2 of the star wars movies...lol...if not, instead of magic rocks, we might be throwing magic shrubbery...lol

 

Chyp: Can we expect to see any animation/damage timing consistency changes between factions?

 

Georg Zoeller (Principal Lead Combat Designer): Yes. The animation team has been working on a new set of animations for abilities like the Trooper's Mortar Volley to provide closer matching of animation timings and improved combat responsiveness. We expect to roll these changes out with Game Update 1.2.

 

Maybe the devs will be kind and give us a list of the ani's that are being worked on...

[Hudson]

i'm happy for you that you like the animation, personally i don't care about how the animation looks. But don't you think it would be a win/win situation if they keep the animation and just make damage apply instant? unless you really think the damage number would look that much prettier if it is applied at the end of the animation.

 

Totally agree with this statement. On my Jedi Sentinal, when I use my force leap ability to begin a battle the damage is instant. The target is while my jedi is still flying through the air.

 

I say make the damage instant, keep the animation the same.

[Taoin]

If the main point of the argument is because of the delay on damage between Project and Shock, wouldn't a possible solution be to not change Projects animation or damage delay at all but to add an equivalent delay to Shock?

 

All they would have to do is copy the time delay from activation to damage that is on project, and add a "charging" animation to the character just before the shock actually comes out.

[Rohkai]

Scratch that. After messing around with an Inq I vote instant all the way. New animation please!! Edited February 28, 2012 by Rohkai

[Dyvim]

There is already delayed damage attacks for both classes (lightning strike and disturbance). Lightning strike is exactly what you are wanting to make shock into...a charging type of animation/activation time. It makes NO sense, whatsoever to nerf Shock instead of fixing project. What is needed for the rep side is what the sith also have...INSTANT damage.

 

You dont break skill B to "fix" broken skill A. Especially when you consider all the talents that enhance shock/project. With that kind of a mind set, you would need to go around and BREAK a whole host of lvl 1 skills that are working as instant - its not just about mirrors, there are other class balance issues involved as well. Junk chunking, at least with its damage delay, is on the chopping block. Good riddance.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Dyvim

[mecher]

If the main point of the argument is because of the delay on damage between Project and Shock, wouldn't a possible solution be to not change Projects animation or damage delay at all but to add an equivalent delay to Shock?

 

All they would have to do is copy the time delay from activation to damage that is on project, and add a "charging" animation to the character just before the shock actually comes out.

 

Fail of epic levels that should lead to a instant ban from ever posting on these forums again.

[justahdude]

would it be so bad if it project just functioned exactly like shock, it is meant to be the equivalent to shock anyway! you can keep the animation, just make the mechanics the same because as it stands now its just too much difference to even use the light vs dark side of the force as an excuse.

[MasterKayote]

Personally I think the whole project animation is horrible. I went Consular because as a Jedi I like having telekinesis as DPS much more than the standard "magic" lightning but I dont ever recall ANY force user pull random object from deep underground to fling them at people. It should just be done more like Telekinetic Throw a quick wave of the hand and random object flies full speed from off-screen behind the Jedi. None of the ridiculous "look at me pull **** from the ground" thing delaying everything.

[Gryphandor]

this is absolutely true, a consular build specced 10 in balance will rely on project a lot to be viable in PVP and it is simply NOT INSTANT-unlike shock, it needs a boost to make it on par. How many times I've seen a rock float in midair after the opp vanished?

 

too many to count.

 

Even if they fix the issue and it hits invis opponents, it wil STILL remain inferior due to the 1-2 sec delay.

 

It needs a 5% damage boost to compensate imho.

 

My Project does that often. Now if I vanish on my Shadow I still get hit by Tracer Missles from a BH. Knocks me right back out also. Why? Because it was already launched from the BM and coming at me when I vanished.

 

Just what my Project should be doing! It is a instant with a activation time based on distance. And yes if target is sprinting away. It could take as long as say 3 seconds for your Prject to land and deal its damage. Plenty of time for even a heal to cover it and make it no longer a killing blow.

 

So many issues with Project.

[rakuenCallisto]

Personally I think the whole project animation is horrible. I went Consular because as a Jedi I like having telekinesis as DPS much more than the standard "magic" lightning but I dont ever recall ANY force user pull random object from deep underground to fling them at people. It should just be done more like Telekinetic Throw a quick wave of the hand and random object flies full speed from off-screen behind the Jedi. None of the ridiculous "look at me pull **** from the ground" thing delaying everything.

 

I like the animation, but I agree with you about the quick throw, instead of lookin at the ground like a tard.