Question from a Jedi Knight

[thanealpha]

So I play a Sentinel, a Combat tree Sent at that, and yes I know I'm self gimping a bit by choosing that tree. Hopefully they'll fix it sooner than later.

 

Anyhow last night I had the fortune of getting some 1:1 time in a second Illum instance vs an Assassin...probably around 10 fights.

 

Now, I'm not a terrible player, I've been playing melee dps classes for many years across just about every non-WoW MMO out there. And I have about half Battlemaster and the rest full Champ gear...including both BM weapons.

 

But I was unable to really even be competative against this assassin.

 

I was getting my 16K+ HPs torn through so fast I was unable to even really build sufficient focus, even with a nice force leap start I felt that I couldn't dump damage skills fast enough to even get ahead.

 

I don't think the Assassin was Biochem (I'm not) but he was able to stealth in mid combat and come back almost immediately at full health...

 

But beyond that it was really the massive burst damage that shocked me. I have reasonable gear, I know enough to not let them behind me, but wow, I was getting hit for HUGE amonts and just unable to burst back.

 

Is this an indication of Sentinel being weak? Or an indication of Assassin being strong? Or just one of those matchups that didn't work out for me?

 

Generally I can 1:1 against most classes reasonably well, but this was painful. I literally would pay $100 cash right now for a combat log of those fights.

 

Anyhow, thanks for any insight you can provide. It's really hard to improve as a player without a combat log to see what is really happening.

[Drokisannath]

Hopefully they'll fix it sooner than later.

 

Wrong, they will nerf every single class before applying a buff or a fix to any.

[jkcheng]

My guess is he used Force Cloak, the equivalent to a rogue's Vanish, and drank the Shockfrozen water for that hp gain. As far as the damage is concerned I really wouldn't know. I've not had that kind of ease killing any class, but then again I'm Madness (DoT heavy) spec'ed.

 

I'd also guess the Assassin you went up against is Deception specced and you got hit with a few crit Mauls. Not having Expose Weakness proc my Maul can crit for 3300 or so, so with the 50% armor penetration added on a Deception spec'ed Assn that is probably what you were hit with primarily. Add a crit Shock that procs the extra one, you're looking at quite a bit of burst. Also, any force attacks like Shock and I'm guessing Surging Charge Discharge that crit will grant another 9% to crit chance that aids Maul.

 

Timed right and with a few lucky RNG rolls, you can get wasted really fast. The Assassin's abilities and talents are very crit-based (as in get a crit here to proc this, get a crit there to proc that, with some of the crits adding more crit chance to other ability types) so if the Assn you went up against is very geared and stacking crit, what you experienced isn't out of the question. My guildy stacking crit was able to get to 35% or so crit chance self-buffed, I'm not sure if that includes a stim.

 

We have an ability called Recklessness that gives you 2 charges (4pc PvP set gives 3 charges and reduced cd) which grants additional 50 or 60% chance to crit on a Force attack. That Force attack crit then procs 9% additional crit chance for melee attacks. On someone with 35% crit you're looking at 44% chance to crit.

Edited February 7, 2012 by jkcheng

[thanealpha]

My guess is he used Force Cloak, the equivalent to a rogue's Vanish, and drank the Shockfrozen water for that hp gain. As far as the damage is concerned I really wouldn't know. I've not had that kind of ease killing any class, but then again I'm Madness (DoT heavy) spec'ed.

 

Yeah, I figured the stealth/heal was something like that.

 

But the damage, wow. Like CRAZY big hits. I'd throw out some numbers but I don't want to exaggerate. Needless to say, he was hitting me far harder each time with MULTIPLE skills than I can generate with ONE skill if I chain it with another to make it hit hard.

 

Most of these fights were over in 5-7 GCDs by my count.

Edited February 7, 2012 by thanealpha

[jkcheng]

Yeah, I figured the stealth/heal was something like that.

 

But the damage, wow. Like CRAZY big hits. I'd throw out some numbers but I don't want to exaggerate. Needless to say, he was hitting me far harder each time with MULTIPLE skills than I can generate with ONE skill if I chain it with another to make it hit hard.

 

Most of these fights were over in 5-7 GCDs by my count.

 

How much health do you have? The great thing about Assassins, and is also what I like most about the class (I've played a bit of Operative and Marauder), imo is that a lot of our abilities have short or no cooldowns minus GCD. Whereas for a Marauder you pretty much have just one move that isn't on cooldown and from what I hear it's a rage dump. 2 crit Mauls prob should do around 7K dmg, a surging discharge crits for maybe 2.5 to 3k? I'm not sure on this one, and Shock can crit for at least 2K. Thrash hits twice at up to 1K each if crit.

 

Also when you're down to below 30%, maybe around 5K or so hp I'm guessing, if you don't finish off the Assassin, you're pretty much dead once he gets to use Assassinate. I don't know how much damage other classes' "execute" can do, but to me Assassinate's the best kill steal tool there is. Hits for about 2300, crits anywhere from 3800 to 4100 from what I've seen.

[RadehX]

Yeah, I figured the stealth/heal was something like that.

 

But the damage, wow. Like CRAZY big hits. I'd throw out some numbers but I don't want to exaggerate. Needless to say, he was hitting me far harder each time with MULTIPLE skills than I can generate with ONE skill if I chain it with another to make it hit hard.

 

Most of these fights were over in 5-7 GCDs by my count.

 

Deception assassins are squishy though as a trade-off.

[Jatne]

You should not be losing 1 v 1s on a Marauder/Sentinel especially vs. Assassin. If he vanished and used water to heal, that was your cue to use yours too.

 

Also, don't blow your defensive cooldowns all at once, keep your non-purgable bleed on the target (to pull him out of cloak). I suggest reading a guide or watching a stream if you're having trouble.

[thanealpha]

You should not be losing 1 v 1s on a Marauder/Sentinel especially vs. Assassin. If he vanished and used water to heal, that was your cue to use yours too.

 

Also, don't blow your defensive cooldowns all at once, keep your non-purgable bleed on the target (to pull him out of cloak). I suggest reading a guide or watching a stream if you're having trouble.

 

Remember. I'm combat spec. So my bleed is not normally part of my rotation. It hits for just about nothing.

 

Secondly. I have to drop combat to use the water and I wasn't seeing myself leave combat.

 

Lastly. I tried usng def skills and abandoning def skills it didn't matter. I was getting hit do hard so fast if I wasted a gcd on a def skill I ended up not hurting him. If I used a more offensive approach I was dead before I could get one bladestorm off.

 

I tried taking advantage of my mobility and leading with a snare. Nope.

 

I tried waiting out his first cc to be able to pop out if his second. There was no second I was dead.

 

I tried cycling mt own cc skills to try and disrupt his flow. Nope it wrecked my dps just as much.

 

I have over 16k hp. And I was down so fast it was worse than an operative getting a jump on me.

 

 

Honest I'd LOVE to know what he was doing.

 

I'm sure assassinate was part of it. Because if I ever tried to stretch my health to get one more skill off I'd explode when I was under 5k or so.

 

We need combat logs.

[Astarica]

From my experience against Marauders/Sentinels, I'm always winning against them easily until they use Undying Rage. If I remember to just use Saber Strike or juggle my lightsaber for the next five seconds I'll pretty much kill them instantly once that runs out (since I'll have 100 Force). If I forgot then I might lose wasting all my big attacks while the enemy is invulnerable. I've never seen a Marauder that can stand toe to toe and out DPS me. They always rely on using Undying Rage to turn the fight around, and if I don't fall for it I win. If I fell for it, then I usually lose horribly.

 

As an aside, Assassins with Wither can kite all other melees almost trivially. In fact, they might as well be the bane of all melee-based classes. I know people need to use Force Leap just to try to hit me. Yes I'm only 8 meters from you, but you'll neve get that down to 4m without using a gap closer, and I"ll probably be 8m away in 5 seconds.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Astarica

[ReFlexionn]

not everyone knows about this 50% heal pot lol, and mroe will cuz ppl keep mention it now

[mrcjevans]

not everyone knows about this 50% heal pot lol, and mroe will cuz ppl keep mention it now

 

Cough up? lol, not on about the med packs?

[thanealpha]

I'm not really as concerned about the shockwater as I am not comprehending the burst damage from this player.

 

It was more than I am capable of doing against a static npc. And I'm supposedly a dps build too...heh.

 

I just found the situation interesting. I've learned years ago to not sweat dying...but I DO try to learn from it, and seriously I was just unable to really learn much from these fights.

 

Thanks for the input from those who offered suggestions about what may have been happening. I think guarded by the force is out completely, just due to the hp cost potentially putting me in range of an assassinate as soon as the timer runs out...not that I tried this too often, but yeah.

 

I think somehow learning to manage the dissapear portion of the fight to my advantage will be the biggest thing I can do...perhaps following up with my own force camo as soon as he pops back in...I'm not sure.

 

Oh well, back to the drawing board.

[HollowVamp]

Remember. I'm combat spec. So my bleed is not normally part of my rotation. It hits for just about nothing.

 

Secondly. I have to drop combat to use the water and I wasn't seeing myself leave combat.

 

Lastly. I tried usng def skills and abandoning def skills it didn't matter. I was getting hit do hard so fast if I wasted a gcd on a def skill I ended up not hurting him. If I used a more offensive approach I was dead before I could get one bladestorm off.

 

I tried taking advantage of my mobility and leading with a snare. Nope.

 

I tried waiting out his first cc to be able to pop out if his second. There was no second I was dead.

 

I tried cycling mt own cc skills to try and disrupt his flow. Nope it wrecked my dps just as much.

 

I have over 16k hp. And I was down so fast it was worse than an operative getting a jump on me.

 

 

Honest I'd LOVE to know what he was doing.

 

I'm sure assassinate was part of it. Because if I ever tried to stretch my health to get one more skill off I'd explode when I was under 5k or so.

 

We need combat logs.

 

 

 

just wanna throw in, you wanna always use cauterize in combat spec too on classes that are known to vanish when tides turn against them, it really isn't a huge focus loss overall, but I understand the event, the only way i can 1v1 assassins is in watchman spec purely because of the dots keeping em out of stealth and the self heals they provide

[Hylfnur]

That assassin was deception specced. And only deception can force cloak, drink water, other specs got healing debuff.

 

So that assassin got pretty lucky on crits. Propably discharge critted, chain shock critted, maul and assassinate critted too. Other than that. Nothing.