SWTOR: Theme-park MMO design. End of the road?

[uidLucid]

Yes, another feedback post, but seeing as I'm a Compsci major, and my forte is project design and layout

 

Got that far, started to laugh and had to stop reading. The development team here at the office had a good chuckle, thanks for that...

 

Back to code I go.

[Jakeithus]

Again, this just goes back to my point that MMO players and gamers in general, as a whole, have become progressively LAZIER. Their is no longer the "sense of ownership" that a MMO community once had. Having a great social aspect in an MMO requires people to go out of their way and do their part. The developers can add all the tools that they want, but if the players just don't take the effort to build a community, they are useless.

 

Guess what I am saying is that what makes me the most sad about the current state of MMOs is that as a community and social body of gamers, we are becoming more selfish and narcissistic.

 

I just wanted to mention how much I agree with this post and other posts you have made. It is the players who definitely create the biggest part of the problem with the current state of MMO's, and I don't know what the solution is. Gamer's think only of themselves, and disregard the opinions of millions of other people playing the same game as them. Everybody wants a game to cater to their needs and desires, and anyone who doesn't agree with them is a casual/bad/etc.

 

My prediction for the future of MMO's is that they will follow the same path they have for the last 10 years or so. There will be one giant in the industry (probably Titan in the future, mainly due to it's mass market appeal), and then everything else will be niche games with a large player base jumping from game to game trying to find their mythical perfect game. People will find a game or an aspect of a game that appeals to them, and then stick with that, but it will be limited.

 

It would be nice if there were 2 or 3 solid competitors, each with millions of players at any one time, but I don't know if that will happen. TOR stabilizing between 2-3 million players is the one hope I see of that happening in the near future, but who knows if this will be the case at this point.

 

The amount of hate people have about TOR just goes to further my point. I love the game, and am having an incredible time playing it so far. From my perspective, it's crazy to think that other people don't think the same as I do about this game. That said, story is probably the biggest draw to me in gaming, so that helps explain my feelings on this matter. On the flip side, I don't think I would ever play a game where a large part of the game involved me designing or building a house, or participating in a player led economy.

[Aisar]

I am the perfect example of why the whole "bad community thing" is a joke. I just switched to Everquest 2 and that game is way more work than TOR.

 

It has text for quests (that's right, no voice overs!?! omg!) It's way better and more the way MMOs are suppose to be. Everquest 2 may have the old school text base for a lot stuff but the difference is it is ACTUALLY A GOOD MMO.

 

EA/BW is the problem, not the community. Make a game worth our time please.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Aisar

[GalacticKegger]

I am the perfect example of why the whole "bad community thing" is a joke. I just switched to Everquest 2 and that game is way more work than TOR.

 

It has text for quests (that's right, no voice overs!?! omg!) It's way better and more the way MMOs are suppose to be. Everquest 2 may have the old school text base for a lot stuff but the difference is it is ACTUALLY A GOOD MMO.

 

EA/BW is the problem, not the community. Make a game worth our time please.

For players like me TOR is that game.

[Dyvim]

This game was supposed to be a mix of sandbox and themepark, with a strong support for community. That is what Schubert promised us in his blog, and I was very excited about it. What we got though, was about a pure a themepark, with all the ugly drawbacks, that the "on rails" experience is so well known for...

 

Sure, have the themepark elements. Spoonfeed content to the wow kiddies and the unimaginative masses. BUT have another game out there on top of the themepark that allows for true endgame play...not some crap gear treadmill...and some real community interaction. Make players actions matter...let players own turf and fight to defend it.

 

Bottom line is you can NEVER develop story driven, VO content at even 1/1000 of the rate players are going to burn through it. So you have to have other systems in place that allow players to generate their own content...like player bounty systems, truly open worlds, social hobbies, etc.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Dyvim

[Dranzen]

Theme-park MMO designs have reached an untenable situation of exponential costs + ever-shorter leveling curves. The theme-park style of MMO has reached a point of oversaturation -- people burn through the leveling content in 5 days /played and expect more within weeks. IMHO the only way forward from here is to mix together elements of the Theme Park, with the Sandbox. Sandbox MMOs alone are too niche to be economically feasible or popular on a large scale. But having sandbox elements in a theme park design, would help subscribers weather the periods between content updates, and give them a reason to keep logging in. It would be the social hub that MMOs have been missing for quite some time.

 

A year or so ago, a writer on Massively coined this term called Sandpark, a melding of sandbox and themepark elements into one genre. The sandpark concept would create an endgame element to the crafting game that would promote player interaction with the environment while also developing and fostering traditional themepark endgame elements. It also would create more player driven, faction based conflicts for an entire server that both PVE and PVP players can contribute to during the conflicts.

 

In short, there would still be raids, Warzones, and RvR zones. In addition, the crafters would be able to define their own endgame through player made augments, materials, and gear to support the community. I'll give an example with SWtoR in mind. The crafter would create unique elements for the creation of guild ships, player housing, siege type cannons. Also for the crafters to attain such unique schematics, there would be epic quests the players would need to do to craft them. I believe the development of a more evolved space environment that is in development should also take this idea into consideration.

 

In regards to player driven, faction based conflicts for an entire server. There could be weekly resources that are fought for on a server by the two factions based on the progress of each faction in PVP and PVE. Completion of Raids and dungeons and Warzones by a faction would help attain additional resources for that server. By the end of the week, the faction with the highest resources, receives a bonus that has a specific duration. After that duration, players compete again for control of the resources.

[Jakeithus]

I am the perfect example of why the whole "bad community thing" is a joke. I just switched to Everquest 2 and that game is way more work than TOR.

 

It has text for quests (that's right, no voice overs!?! omg!) It's way better and more the way MMOs are suppose to be. Everquest 2 may have the old school text base for a lot stuff but the difference is it is ACTUALLY A GOOD MMO.

 

EA/BW is the problem, not the community. Make a game worth our time please.

 

All that shows is that in order for you to consider a game a good game, you have to like it. Who are you to determine "the way MMOs are supposed to be", and what makes something a good MMO?

 

In terms of the texts for quests, text can never get me as involved in why I am doing the quest as voiceovers can. A game could write me a page about why I need to go do a quest, but it still doesn't give me nearly the involvement that voiceover does. If the only reason a game gives me to do a quest is "get experience to get to the next level", as opposed to voiceover that helps me get involved, then it's no contest for me.

 

This is an example of how community is the problem. You and I are part of the same community, but we have massively different expectations of what makes a good MMO.

[DarthKhaos]

I am the perfect example of why the whole "bad community thing" is a joke. I just switched to Everquest 2 and that game is way more work than TOR.

 

It has text for quests (that's right, no voice overs!?! omg!) It's way better and more the way MMOs are suppose to be. Everquest 2 may have the old school text base for a lot stuff but the difference is it is ACTUALLY A GOOD MMO.

 

EA/BW is the problem, not the community. Make a game worth our time please.

Awesome, great, wonderful... What do you like about EQ2 now? Because I missed it in all the awesomeness you were displaying about the game.

 

I am not saying EQ2 sucks you just never said what makes the game so great.

[Dawgtide]

Although sandbox games can be nice at times, I don't have problems with games on rails (themeparks). One does not exclude the other for me and a change of pace is always nice. It would become really boring if every game was the same. The storylines in SWTOR are a change of pace and in that respect I don't care if this game is linear or not.

 

I never engage in endgames anyway, because I think they are silly gear grinds and because there are so many games released each year, that when I'm bored I just look up a new game. Most MMO's I play for 3 months to a year max, most single player games between 2 weeks and 3 months max.

 

I think diversity is what makes games interesting.

 

Great post. This game is great for the story. I will probably enjoy 2 or 3 stories before I take a break. After that I can play Dragon Age again, or Mass Effect or even multi-box the old EQ with Mercs just for pleasure. The key is having a bunch of enjoyable games. This is one for me as I already loved to read anyway.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Dawgtide

[Dranzen]

The amount of hate people have about TOR just goes to further my point. I love the game, and am having an incredible time playing it so far. From my perspective, it's crazy to think that other people don't think the same as I do about this game. That said, story is probably the biggest draw to me in gaming, so that helps explain my feelings on this matter. On the flip side, I don't think I would ever play a game where a large part of the game involved me designing or building a house, or participating in a player led economy.

 

The sad part about the forums is that most forums usually reflect the worst of the population and the vocal minority.

 

Years ago, one of the CMs - I think it was Bashiok - for WoW commented on a study they did regarding forum use and the community. They determined that less than 1 percent of the community actually read the forums. Even less posted on the forums. In fact, less than 8 percent even went to the World of Warcraft website weekly.

 

Gamers forget that most people have real lives and actually play the game for fun instead of coming to forums frothing at the mouth.

 

In fact if you just play the game and chit chat with your fellow guildies, you'll probably notice most people are having a blast with the game. At least that's been my experience in the game.

[Sephendrine]

"people burn through the leveling content in 5 days /played "

 

I'm sorry, but this isn't Bioware's problem. I love Star Wars and video games. I've personally put hours/days/weeks of time into my 3 characters. However, I have yet to hit 50 on any of them. Someone who hits 50 in 5 days has got too much gametime on their hands. You can't rush through content, then complain you're out of game to play. Take some time off, take a break, get a job, go outside. I understand the frustration of short games. Short games are why I primarily use GameFly these days and buy only a couple games a year. This game, however, isn't short, and with the storylines and legacy system it's clear Bioware intends people to replay. Yet those people who have the time, patience and dedication to get to 50 in 5 days then turn around and complain they don't want to do it again? It's crazy.

 

Totally agree with you. There's so many "experts" with their little axes to grind on these forums it's hilarious. Apparently they don't even bother to read the dev posts where they have outlined what they are currently working on, and where they specifically say they look at suggestions and consider them. So instead of posting actual ideas for sandbox-style content in the suggestion forum, we get another doom and gloom flashy newspaper type post title.

 

OP, Aion had a great leveling curve, for example, but this was one of the reasons western kids ran screaming from it like 5 year toddlers who wet their diapers. I may agree with you that in general for mmorpgs, the longer leveling curve the better, and I wish no game ever nerfed any content, but we must be playing different games here, because this one has an in-depth story (8 of them in fact) that unless you spacebar through it, or poopsocked your way to the top on multiple characters, there's no way you should be crying for more content, especially since they are actively working on adding more anyway.

 

So really, what's with the spastic headline? Are you actually a journalism major?

[Jakeithus]

The sad part about the forums is that most forums usually reflect the worst of the population and the vocal minority.

 

Years ago, one of the CMs - I think it was Bashiok - for WoW commented on a study they did regarding forum use and the community. They determined that less than 1 percent of the community actually read the forums. Even less posted on the forums. In fact, less than 8 percent even went to the World of Warcraft website weekly.

 

Gamers forget that most people have real lives and actually play the game for fun instead of coming to forums frothing at the mouth.

 

In fact if you just play the game and chit chat with your fellow guildies, you'll probably notice most people are having a blast with the game. At least that's been my experience in the game.

 

Agreed. I've dealt with the negativity on the forums for this long just fine, so it probably me just getting worn down by all of the constant complaining. Maybe it's time for a break from them for a while.

 

I had a good talk in game just this week with a guy I came over from WoW with, about how much fun we've both been having in TOR. That, in my opinion, is the more realistic reflection of this game.

[Dyvid]

Can someone break down the difference between a sandbox and theme-park?

[Mephismo]

Can someone break down the difference between a sandbox and theme-park?

 

Sandbox you make your own fun (open world)

 

Theme Park all the thrill rides are in place

[GalacticKegger]

Can someone break down the difference between a sandbox and theme-park?

http://www.swtor.com/news/blog/20100402 Edited February 16, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Dyvid]

Then the question is for everyone wanting a sandbox, what specifically in the game is stopping you from make your own fun? What sort of activates in your other MMO do you do that you can't do here?

[Sarsi]

While it would be fantastic to see a company take a risk, the ones that do seem to get smashed against the rocks.

 

GW2 and The Secret World are both taking the risks and I think will both succeed. Anyone looking for a game that is not designed around rushing to max level and has a social center should look into The Secret World.

[DarthKhaos]

Then the question is for everyone wanting a sandbox, what specifically in the game is stopping you from make your own fun? What sort of activates in your other MMO do you do that you can't do here?

In some cases nothing. In other cases it may be stuff like they can't climb this mountain and have to run around it. (This specific one I find to be such a stupid pet peeve) You got to ask them for more specifics.

 

1/2 the issues some people are having are non issues in MY OPINION (sometimes if you don't highlight that they go berserk) and need to be ignored.

The other 1/2 it's the game not facilitating things they want to do. Some simple some not. Like sitting in chairs, customizing your ships, games to play in game like Pazzak.

[Bigaus]

GW2 and The Secret World are both taking the risks and I think will both succeed. Anyone looking for a game that is not designed around rushing to max level and has a social center should look into The Secret World.

 

I do agree that both of those seem to be built more around social gaming & community than ToR.. but ToR was always going to be KotoR with friends.. always. Which I'm ok with.. If I unsub, I won't feel like I wasted my time leveling.. it was fun.

[Huaracocha]

Nice post by the OP and an interesting thread, having read most of the replies. My little take on some of the topics discussed here;

 

SWG was not a failure or proof that sandbox doesn't work as some say. In the MMO market at that time it was in fact a big success and record setter. Even despite SOE / LA decision to ruin the game TWICE it only switched off at the end of last year.

 

Other 'sandbox' games have been running even longer as people mention; UO, DAOC, EQ etc.

EVE online is probably the biggest at present numbers and is definitely a successful product. Sandbox type MMO's have been around years, are still around, and are a proven success in this niche market of MMO games. Yes I would still call it a niche market and regard WoW as an outlier / statistical anomaly rather than a mainstream market and every game ever in this genre but WoW is a failure!

 

Theme park "WoW clones" fail by the droves and some people are puzzled by why people go back to WoW.. it's quite simple really. WoW does what it does extremely well. It also has quite a lot of (albeit minor and somewhat secondary) sandbox elements to it. Certainly much more so than a game like SWTOR.

 

The 2 biggest failings of this game imo are the speed at which you can gear up / consume end-game content and, even more importantly, the lack of any kind of incentive to do anything beyond the prescribed HM's, WZ's and operations.

 

You hit level 50 - far too quickly and easily as many have pointed out - and then can simply kit yourself out in gear that is ready for HM's or normal OPS from the GTN, corellia comms and a bit of PvP. Within a week or two anyone who wishes can have pretty much full Columi. Any guild that is even remotely co-ordinated or interested in raiding can replace that with HM ops and Rakata in that same time frame. So then what?

 

Well it certainly won't be crafting since it's simplistic, unengaging and ultimately unrewarding. It isn't NEEDED by anyone so for most people isn't a diversion.

 

It won't be secondary objectives out in the world either. There's really no reason to go out into the world, no unique mobs to farm for drops or anything of that nature. I guess you could argue that the codex has a list of sub-objectives per planet but somehow that's under-realised to the point that most aren't aware of it or it just doesn't engage.

 

You could explore but most worlds feel small / linear and don't quite encourage this type of play. No day/night cycle doesn't help with immersion for this type of play. Nor do mounts that feel horribly slow for that matter. The only planets that have any kind of real open world feel to them are Tatooine and Hoth imo and even then, it doesn't quite feel genuinely open and real.

 

You could do open-world PvP.. except you can't. Ilum isn't really open world and even if you think it is, doesn't really have much to engage. There are some good battles there occassionally but it's just that - a skirmish. No real objectives or tactics - or the ability for players to insert their own through game mechanics. As for the rest of the world, factions are generally separated and we certainly can't go around raiding each others quest hubs or assaulting lowbie towns etc as people sometimes do for a diversion in other games.

 

Is the IP and the engaging class storyline enough to keep this game afloat despite these shortcomings? I have no idea. Perhaps, through the wallets of the 'casuals' (I hate that term) who may be content to level character after character enjoying the class storyline and expect little more. It certainly isn't enough to arrest the long-term attention of a lot of MMO players.

 

So why don't all us scumbag, sandbox-loving 'hardcore' (another silly term) players shut it and go play something more suited to our tastes? Well for one thing we bought this game, paid our money, have subbed till whatever date and so we are here for now and voicing our opinions like anyone else! Also, if EVE doesn't float your boat, then you're a little out of luck on the sandbox front just atm.

 

SWG pre-CU emu is not operational yet and who knows if it will ever be truly. Even if it is, do we really want to go backwards in time 8 or 9 years to find a game that suits our taste? Darkfall, Mortal, Vanguard have had promise for this type of play but have their own issues. Vanguard may go forwards.. but then many of us find it very difficult to trust SOE after the SWG debacle.

 

Then you go down the line to smaller, less-known games like Wurm or Xsyon. Of course with smaller numbers come lower production values and this can make a game unappealing to many. Wurm for example is as sandbox a game as you could want and in some aspects appeals to me greatly. Unfortunately I find it difficult to get truly engaged with an MMO I must play in 1st person view, with awful GFX and characters that have not just poor animation, but often times a complete lack of animation to accompany an activity.

 

ArcheAge looks to be the best hope on the horizon. A lot of sandbox type elements in present development stage. I suggest we keep our eyes on this game as it develops, check out other sandbox type games to see if they suit your taste, and continue offering constructive feedback like in this thread and not whines or antagonistic casual vs hardcore / sandbox vs theme park type arguments.

 

Sorry for the long post

[GalacticKegger]

GW2 and The Secret World are both taking the risks and I think will both succeed. Anyone looking for a game that is not designed around rushing to max level and has a social center should look into The Secret World.

Or better yet play this one. Edited February 16, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[DarthKhaos]

You know Huaracocha I was feeling your post till you hit this point.

factions are generally separated and we certainly can't go around raiding each others quest hubs or assaulting lowbie towns etc

Seriosuly? Go harass some low levels that can't fight back is more exciting than some level 50 content. Rrriiiggghhhttt...

 

Then your objectiveness and trend of your post took a serious nose dive.

 

What if EvE Online doesn't float your boat? You wait. Like others are. I want space mmo with faster pace combat. EvE Online & Star Trek Online ain't it. So I wait.

 

If SW:G was the greatest thing since sliced bread why didn't more people stay before the NGE? You think if SW:G had 1mil+ hell if it had 300K+ subs they'd be closed down? Nope. Know why? Because it'd of been making a PROFIT!

 

So I ask you this, because SW:TOR isn't going to become a sandbox, if you hate this game as much as you sound like you do. Why are you still here? Because I know for a fact if I was not enjoying my time playing SW:TOR I wouldn't even be on the forums. I'd be spending my time doing or playing something I enjoy.

 

 

And on that note I'm home now and logging on. Toodles...

[Portisfreak]

Didn't get to read through all the pages, but I'd like to give a short feedback to the thread starter:

I'm yet not sure if I agree with all you mentioned, but I do think you made some good points there to think about from a gamedesign standpoint. Thanks

[Huaracocha]

You know Huaracocha I was feeling your post till you hit this point.

 

Seriosuly? Go harass some low levels that can't fight back is more exciting than some level 50 content. Rrriiiggghhhttt...

 

Then your objectiveness and trend of your post took a serious nose dive.

 

What if EvE Online doesn't float your boat? You wait. Like others are. I want space mmo with faster pace combat. EvE Online & Star Trek Online ain't it. So I wait.

 

If SW:G was the greatest thing since sliced bread why didn't more people stay before the NGE? You think if SW:G had 1mil+ hell if it had 300K+ subs they'd be closed down? Nope. Know why? Because it'd of been making a PROFIT!

 

So I ask you this, because SW:TOR isn't going to become a sandbox, if you hate this game as much as you sound like you do. Why are you still here? Because I know for a fact if I was not enjoying my time playing SW:TOR I wouldn't even be on the forums. I'd be spending my time doing or playing something I enjoy.

 

 

And on that note I'm home now and logging on. Toodles...

 

I get your point about the way I worded the world PvP point and that's probably my fault for not getting what I meant across. I'm not just talking about "ganking lowbies" but the fact that uber turrets make any kind of attacking the other faction's towns / hubs basically impossible. To use a WoW example a takeover of Crossroads / Westfall by some bored members of the other faction often led to defenders coming in and some world PvP ensuing. This is what I meant with the taking over other faction's areas point.

 

SWG did have those kinds of numbers.. I think it was at 700k at one point (hence the record breaking I mentioned). I have no idea what the exact numbers were at point of CU and then at point of NGE - all I can tell you is I know masses left at CU and masses more at NGE.. yet still it kept running till end of last year. By no means was it perfect and I don't mean to suggest it was. Only that it had some sandbox elements with real depth and potential beyond what we see in most MMO's since.

 

I don't hate SWTOR and I certainly didn't mean to give that impression. I think it has problems sure but then so does basically every game. There's a lot about the game I love and really enjoy and I'm not saying I regret the purchase or sub. I'm only commenting on what has been discussed in the thread with my views - as you are

[AnoriOlko]

/signed

 

The social, space, and crafting aspects of this game might be its downfall. BioWare needs to address this.