CapitaFK Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Ok, so I hope it is understood that WoW (hate to bring it up) didn't become the #1 MMO by being the zomgbestMMOeva. Bringing lots of ideas from other games together, having a great IP, a huge customer base (Asia anyone?) and most importantly (imo) attending to a new player base is what did it. SWTOR definitely does not speak to the same player base as GW2, and I think that is the root of lots of the hullabaloo on the forums lately. People who whine incessantly about "lack" of endgame, would actually rather play Vanguard (is that still out?) or L2 or FFXI or whatever grinding gamers play these days (forgive me I don't know what game this is). People who whine about worthless PvP likewise fall into a few categories, they may be old UO, DAoC or Shadowbane players sad for the lack of open world play and meaningful consequences. They may be esports WoW players seeing no "competitve play" in SWTOR and discounting it, they may be enraged by the impact of gear, they may just be incompetent... the list goes on. My point is just that, the game is what it is, and for an MMO (I've been through lots of them, I'm sure no one cares to hear me list them) the pace of updates and fixes particularly in PvP is friggin stunning. These are the things that keep me here, I personally think Star Wars is about the lamest setting ever written, but the new approach to MMOs has caught my attention and I enjoy the **** out of it. Unfortunately your mileage may vary. About the best post in this entire thread. Good on you, sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anstalt Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 This game caters EXACTLY for my type of playstyle - semi-hardcore By this I mean I usually play for a few hours every evening, but I'm not online all day every day. I focus on endgame only and aim to be the best, but I'm not a min-maxer. I belong to the "better than most, but not the best" crowd. I love to PvP and this game gives me near instant access to it during prime time. Is it perfect? No, ofc not, open world pvp sucks atm and warzones get boring, but its still instant access and can be quite fun. I've enjoyed learning my class, developing team tactics etc. When PvP becomes dull, I have access to loads of flashpoints to keep me entertained until I get the urge to PvP again. This game is also solo-friendly so if none of my guild are online, I can keep advancing my character. Also, its star wars. I played LOTRO from release. That game's pvp sucked hard, the pve was lacking but I love lord of the rings. Aion, Rift etc may have been better games but without the IP theres just nothing to keep me there. TOR will do fine. It'll be here for years to come. Its success or failure with the hardcore crowd (i.e. most forum users) will depend on BW's ability to react to bugs and provide content, but lets face it, that wont affect the success or failure of TOR in the long term because the casual and semi-hc player base is much much larger than the hardcore playerbase, and TOR caters for casuals and semi-hc's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengir Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 wrong, swg was great from the start, it got worse after soe added more content (cu, nge) Agree ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I've played in many professional tournaments for FPS and MOBA games. A Battlemaster will beat me 10/10 times no matter how much better of a player I am than they are. Just like in WoW, my S2, S3, S4, S5 Gladiator Hunter would beat any blue geared new 60, 70, or 80 without trying half as hard against an equally geared person. You can't argue this. Mathematics will disagree with you. If you do, I'd like for you to prove it. Arguing that I'm being subjective when all of this is subjective. E-Sports are based on popularity. Popularity equals success. That's basic economics. I hate CoD and I'm a BF fanboy, but there's no refuting CoD sells far more copies than BF does. And selling more copies does that make you the superior product. Unless you're arguing that we should all be listening to pop music and country, considering they outsell every other genre by leaps and bounds. Is McDonalds the best food on earth? Is James Cameron the best director alive? Popularity does not indicate quality. Actually, in general, you'll find most very popular things are bland and uninspired. That's how they become popular, because they try to appeal to everyone. If I made decisions on quality based on popularity, Anaal Nathrakh wouldn't be my favourite band. I'd play WoW, watch American Idol and own Taylor Swift albums. I do none of these things, because popularity does not indicate quality. So being an Esport doesn't make your game good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitaFK Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 You're making the assumption that Swtor subscriptions are soley based on PvP players. From what I hear, the endgame PVE portion of the game isn't much better than the PVP endgame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manigma Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Why I stay, bcus I completed all the other good games or got bored of them, have you not heard of the gaming locusts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 So you'd play an inferior game with inferior mechanics just because it's Sci-Fi over a quality Fantasy title with far better PVP? Yes. But that's not what I'm doing by playing SWTOR over the mythical GW2. GW2 is a setting I despise. I dislike swords and dragons and dwarfs. There are already a crap ton of those types of games out there and NONE appeal to me. GW2 will be no different. If I want "better PvP", I'll play Call of Duty or BF3. This game is an MMO and it plays like one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitaFK Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) So being an Esport doesn't make your game good. You asked for proof of GW's success to argue against a subjective claim. Well, now you're trying to refute that by trying to argue based on subjective opinion. What do you want? Economically, GW is a success. You can't argue that. PVP-wise, GW is a success. You can't argue that either. As for what is fun? Well, that is subjective. But you asked for successful, and I gave it to you. The really ironic part is that GW was both a very successful E-Sport AND a niche game, which fills both of your supposed requirements as to what makes a great game. Edited February 7, 2012 by CapitaFK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Yes. But that's not what I'm doing by playing SWTOR over the mythical GW2. GW2 is a setting I despise. I dislike swords and dragons and dwarfs. There are already a crap ton of those types of games out there and NONE appeal to me. GW2 will be no different. If I want "better PvP", I'll play Call of Duty or BF3. This game is an MMO and it plays like one. This is another point. GW2 couldn't make an original world. Really? They made techno-hobbits, furries and elves. They ripped off WoW, who ripped off Warhammer, who ripped off D&D who ripped off Tolkien. I mean, ****, can we not get some originality in fantasy? Can I not get anthropomorphic leeches instead of cat people AGAIN! Can we get a short race who are savages? How about a nature loving race that aren't elves? Barbie funtime adventures could have the best game mechanics ever made, but it's still Barbie funtime adventures. GW2 has the colour palette of a little kids colouring book and races that aren't even remotely original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecmonee Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Why did BW even bother making half the servers PVP all they want you to do and all anyone can do is PVE... I don't know why I'm still playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotland Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 cause i didnt rage quit like most of you did/are going to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitaFK Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 This is another point. GW2 couldn't make an original world. Really? They made techno-hobbits, furries and elves. They ripped off WoW, who ripped off Warhammer, who ripped off D&D who ripped off Tolkien. I mean, ****, can we not get some originality in fantasy? Can I not get anthropomorphic leeches instead of cat people AGAIN! Can we get a short race who are savages? How about a nature loving race that aren't elves? Barbie funtime adventures could have the best game mechanics ever made, but it's still Barbie funtime adventures. GW2 has the colour palette of a little kids colouring book and races that aren't even remotely original. I find this ironic, considering the only thing Star Wars did new with the Sci-Fi genre was shiny glowsticks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 You asked for proof of GW's success to argue against a subjective claim. Well, now you're trying to refute that by trying to argue based on subjective opinion. What do you want? Economically, GW is a success. You can't argue that. PVP-wise, GW is a success. You can't argue that either. As for what is fun? Well, that is subjective. But you asked for successful, and I gave it to you. Yes, I can argue that PvP-wise GW wasn't a success because you've yet to quantify what makes a game a "PvP success". You've yet to provide what factors you consider to be objective proof of a game's PvP success. You haven't provided any proof yet of a objective nature, hence I have not countered your proof with objective evidence. You're making the positive assertion, I'm making the negative assertion. This means you provide proof first, and then I get the chance to refute your proof. Right now both of us are only working with opinions, if you'd like to provide your objective evidence of what makes a game a "PvP success" I'd be fully willing to pick it apart. So please, go ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximusedward Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) There are other things in this game besides PvP.. oh you....... /giggles Edited February 7, 2012 by maximusedward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWImara Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) This game caters EXACTLY for my type of playstyle - semi-hardcore By this I mean I usually play for a few hours every evening, but I'm not online all day every day. I focus on endgame only and aim to be the best, but I'm not a min-maxer. I belong to the "better than most, but not the best" crowd. Pretty awesome that you recognize this, I fall into about the same category and I think one of the regular problems MMOers (and particularly PvPers) have is that everyone thinks they're the best thing since sliced bread. I work full time, am in school full time, have a family, friends and a ton of other commitments but like a ton of dudes in my generation I enjoy the **** out of gaming. So a few nights a week I get a few hours in and have a blast playing as much as I can (often in the 12-2am region just to grind out some PvP). I'm an old school RPer (like pen and paper) and I fiddle in PvE now and again (raids when necessary to bolster PvP gear). All of this being said, I am not as good as someone who is in the hardcore PvP crowd, but I don't have to be, frankly the MMO bar of competence is pretty low (as someone mentioned earlier). SWTOR fits this approach to gameplay excellently. I love to PvP and this game gives me near instant access to it during prime time. Is it perfect? No, ofc not, open world pvp sucks atm and warzones get boring, but its still instant access and can be quite fun. I've enjoyed learning my class, developing team tactics etc. When PvP becomes dull, I have access to loads of flashpoints to keep me entertained until I get the urge to PvP again. This game is also solo-friendly so if none of my guild are online, I can keep advancing my character. Agreed, in SWTOR I don't have to be part of my huge machine of a PvP guild to achieve anything. The game's content is actually enjoyable rather than a pure grind, and it is possible to achieve long-term goals in a constrained amount of time. I appreciate that. It also puts a focus on actually being competent. It is definitely amazing reading the PvP forums before or the dude earlier's comment on Battlemaster besting a Champion 100% of the time... I don't even know what to say to that. Basically SWTOR is the kind of game where I am not worried about being zomg#1, I can be quite content with sending people to the forums with cries of "nerf commando grav round" or "nerf guardian sweep". Also, its star wars. I played LOTRO from release. That game's pvp sucked hard, the pve was lacking but I love lord of the rings. Aion, Rift etc may have been better games but without the IP theres just nothing to keep me there. Yeah lifer for LotRO here and don't know that I've ever regretted it (Champions Online is a different story) that game's PvP was atrocious, but at least the devs made it really clear that PvP was not a central theme in their game. Not all games are for everyone, LotRO is definitely evidence of that... and contrary to the cries of WoW forum trolls, LotRO has been pretty successful as MMOs go. Edited February 7, 2012 by SWImara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitaFK Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Yes, I can argue that PvP-wise GW wasn't a success because you've yet to quantify what makes a game a "PvP success". You've yet to provide what factors you consider to be objective proof of a game's PvP success. You haven't provided any proof yet of a objective nature, hence I have not countered your proof with objective evidence. You're making the positive assertion, I'm making the negative assertion. This means you provide proof first, and then I get the chance to refute your proof. Right now both of us are only working with opinions, if you'd like to provide your objective evidence of what makes a game a "PvP success" I'd be fully willing to pick it apart. So please, go ahead. No, you're using opinion and shooting at straws to fill your argument. My position is simple logic, economics, and business structure. E-Sport eligibility is a far stronger argument than your "just because it's popular doesn't make it good" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teabaker Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) I'm in the same boat. This Game offers NOTHING to PvP-Players. I can't understand why new MMOS put PvP completely aside... I also can't believe i jumped on this GW2 Hype train. Hell, Ilum still ****, still no duel zone, no competitive PvP, Valor still a boring and braindead Grind. Im going to quit and see how the game is in 1.2 Edited February 7, 2012 by Teabaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thanealpha Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 1> My friends 2> Potential Nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 No, you're using opinion and shooting at straws to fill your argument. My position is simple logic, economics, and business structure. E-Sport eligibility is a far stronger argument than your "just because it's popular doesn't make it good" argument. You have still yet to provide what makes a game a PvP success. Are you going to claim that your proof is Esport eligibility? Is that the crux of your argument? May I begin picking at it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmerick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) still here untill my 3 month runs out. I'll probably play through most of the character stories which interests me during that time. Also 3 months untill Tera comes out which seems to have an interesting combat system. the system in this game mixed with pvp isn't doing it for me unfortunately. Edited February 7, 2012 by Emmerick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdarpa Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I canceled but have a few months left, since I paid 6 month sub What is your excuse? I'll give you the same courtesy that I gave people in WoW after they were saying the same thing a few months after release: 1. Can I have your stuff? 2. Don't let the door hit your ***** on the way out 3. bai. On another note, to the guys that are ************ about the speed of bug fixes that likely don't understand the software development process due to their clear immaturity or general lack of common sense, it takes time and testing to implement a change. If they implemented an on the fly change that resulted in very major bugs (eg: preventing you from travelling to Ilum at all, or gave the other team valor when you kill them, or stuck death, etc etc), you'd be raising hell on the forums demanding your money back, or threatening a frivolous lawsuit, or threatening suicide, or something equally as stupid and juvenile. tl;dr: If you don't like it, go play something else but don't post about it. ***** to customer service, not other players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWImara Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 And selling more copies does that make you the superior product. Unless you're arguing that we should all be listening to pop music and country, considering they outsell every other genre by leaps and bounds. Is McDonalds the best food on earth? Is James Cameron the best director alive? Popularity does not indicate quality. Actually, in general, you'll find most very popular things are bland and uninspired. That's how they become popular, because they try to appeal to everyone. If I made decisions on quality based on popularity, Anaal Nathrakh wouldn't be my favourite band. I'd play WoW, watch American Idol and own Taylor Swift albums. I do none of these things, because popularity does not indicate quality. So being an Esport doesn't make your game good. +1 I've had this problem before, particularly with folks who wikid an bit on economic theory or something along those lines. Or sadly these days many who have picked up a business degree. It's pretty standard in any argument commenting on WoW and MMOs are great for cultivating somewhat educated (or at least exposed to education) people who broadly attempt to apply thier academic theories to gaming and the genre. In a way its an issue with the popularized western approach to econ taught in low level courses. There is room for a good deal of diversity in an area of gaming or any of the areas mentioned above. One can be really successful by appealing to the broadest base possible, or one can serve a niche market very well, both should be recognized as having some merit. Yeah esports are great to those that love them, to those that loathe them not so much. Basically folks should play games that cater to what they want, they're theoretically out there. Rather than trying to change a game that is starkly opposite your desires, its best just to leave (maybe without trolling for months on the forums beforehand). Yes.. people will be sad to see you go etc... no you probably do not speak for everyone playing, or even everyone on the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitaFK Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 You have still yet to provide what makes a game a PvP success. Are you going to claim that your proof is Esport eligibility? Is that the crux of your argument? May I begin picking at it? You asked for proof that GW was a successful PVP game. E-Sport leagues are businesses that do not cover unsuccessful games that won't make them money. ESL and WSG have covered numerous GW tournaments, not to mention the in-house tournaments ArenaNet has. The only other MMO to have such E-Sport coverage was WoW Arenas. That's not to mention the millions of copies GW has sold over the years, which places it with the likes of WoW, BF2, MW2, etc. Your argument will probably involve something about DAoC not being E-Sport eligible yet still being one of the best MMO PVP games (along with EVE and WoW), but that has more to do with the fact that DAoC revolved around mass PVP rather than arena PVP. So, yes, do refute the fact that GW's PVP was very successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtyv Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I am having fun pvping with friends This^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrogon Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 playing with rl friends and waiting for new content to come out. its nice to finally have a MMO everyone will play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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